Debt (economic, social, generational, etc.)

[afgolfer]

[quote='BusNative;86763;0]The opportunity is DEFINITELY not there for everyone in the bottom 20% - probably not even most or many.[/quote]

While it isnt handed to everyone with exact dirrections on how to better themselves, it can be earned if you take the time to work towards it. And that is why we have many of the problems we have today. because people feel this way but dont do anything to help themselves. It would have been so easy for me to just say "well my family has alwaysbeen poor" so i need handouts such as welfare or other government aid or just stuctk to the addage and Ill change it somewhat, "a poor man can't get ahead" or "i was born poor, so i will die poor" Granted I am white and APPLIED myself and took challenging classes in high school so that I might have the oportunty to go to college.

Are all schools the same? definately not and this is an area I would like to see improved, but too many people use it as a crutch or an excuse to not try to improve. Just because you are in a bad situation, doesnt mean you have to continue to choose to make poor decisions and not try to change things, and no screaming racism and demanding aid is not "trying to change thigs"

My dad had an annual income of roughly 25,000 dollars which included pay for many hours of weekly overtime by working in a factory to raise a family of 5. I didnt want for anything such as food or clothes, but guess what, we sacrificed, we didnt eat out, we raised a garden and helped in the neighbors fields for not pay, but a cow or afew pigs. We went to thrift stores or garage sales for clothes. In doing so my dad has been able to save for a substancial retirement -- currently over 100000 dollars from investing over 25 years. Now that all of us kids have moved out my parents are able to do things if they choose, but it was because of hard work and perserverence instead of demanding federal government support. My parents never collected welfare or applied fr any government aid other than reduced lunches at school. Whether people want to believ it or not It can be done through HARD WORK, something i dont think toom many are willing to do any more.

I am 25 now, I bought a house 2 years ago w/out a cosigner w/ a fixed rate APR at 5.6%. I have no other debt (by choice, and sacrifice). I invest 13% of my miilitay income into a retirement account, and pay a full 10% tithe at church, I donate time and money to charitable organizations. My brother closed on a home at the age of 21 , paid off his 01 Dodge Ram 4x4 longbead P/U; all while working at an automotive factory w/ no degree. I am not saying any of this to say look at me or I'm better than you, but to show that IF you Go out of your way and instead of looking for Pity on yourself and your situation, anything is possible. It may require you to sacrifice and not live a life of luxury , or like your neighbor. IE "keep up with the Jones's"

 

[buckeyegrad]

[quote='BusNative;86763;0]The opportunity is DEFINITELY not there for everyone in the bottom 20% - probably not even most or many.[/quote]

I don't know if the trend continued in the 90s or even our current decade, but I know this was not the case in the 1980s. Thomas Sowell has shown that of those in the bottom 20% in 1980, 80% were not in that position by the end of the decade. However, I would guess these numbers have remained similar since the majority of the bottom 20% consists primarily of recent high school graduates, college students, and others in their 20s.

As for the 5% of the population that remains stuck in the bottom 20%, how can you show that it is the result of there being no opportunity as opposed to them not taking advantage of opportunities?

 

[PlanetFrnd]

I don't know if the trend continued in the 90s or even our current decade, but I know this was not the case in the 1980s. Thomas Sowell has shown that of those in the bottom 20% in 1980, 80% were not in that position by the end of the decade. However, I would guess these numbers have remained similar since the majority of the bottom 20% consists primarily of recent high school graduates, college students, and others in their 20s.

As for the 5% of the population that remains stuck in the bottom 20%, how can you show that it is the result of there being no opportunity as opposed to them not taking advantage of opportunities?

I taught in the South Bronx for 2 years - much of the Bronx, but especially the South Bronx, falls into the lower 20%. There is little to no opportunity for many people in the area and the cycle of poverty, poor education, high cost and poor health keeps people where they are. It might be wrong to treat the South Bronx as a microcosm, but if it's any indication of how many of the bottom 20% must live, I stand by my statement.

 

[PlanetFrnd]

While it isnt handed to everyone with exact dirrections on how to better themselves, it can be earned if you take the time to work towards it. And that is why we have many of the problems we have today. because people feel this way but dont do anything to help themselves. It would have been so easy for me to just say "well my family has alwaysbeen poor" so i need handouts such as welfare or other government aid or just stuctk to the addage and Ill change it somewhat, "a poor man can't get ahead" or "i was born poor, so i will die poor" Granted I am white and APPLIED myself and took challenging classes in high school so that I might have the oportunty to go to college.

Are all schools the same? definately not and this is an area I would like to see improved, but too many people use it as a crutch or an excuse to not try to improve. Just because you are in a bad situation, doesnt mean you have to continue to choose to make poor decisions and not try to change things, and no screaming racism and demanding aid is not "trying to change thigs"

My dad had an annual income of roughly 25,000 dollars which included pay for many hours of weekly overtime by working in a factory to raise a family of 5. I didnt want for anything such as food or clothes, but guess what, we sacrificed, we didnt eat out, we raised a garden and helped in the neighbors fields for not pay, but a cow or afew pigs. We went to thrift stores or garage sales for clothes. In doing so my dad has been able to save for a substancial retirement -- currently over 100000 dollars from investing over 25 years. Now that all of us kids have moved out my parents are able to do things if they choose, but it was because of hard work and perserverence instead of demanding federal government support. My parents never collected welfare or applied fr any government aid other than reduced lunches at school. Whether people want to believ it or not It can be done through HARD WORK, something i dont think toom many are willing to do any more.

I am 25 now, I bought a house 2 years ago w/out a cosigner w/ a fixed rate APR at 5.6%. I have no other debt (by choice, and sacrifice). I invest 13% of my miilitay income into a retirement account, and pay a full 10% tithe at church, I donate time and money to charitable organizations. My brother closed on a home at the age of 21 , paid off his 01 Dodge Ram 4x4 longbead P/U; all while working at an automotive factory w/ no degree. I am not saying any of this to say look at me or I'm better than you, but to show that IF you Go out of your way and instead of looking for Pity on yourself and your situation, anything is possible. It may require you to sacrifice and not live a life of luxury , or like your neighbor. IE "keep up with the Jones's"

Listen, I appluad your hard work. I like to think that my own hard work the very hard work of my parents helped to bring our family from where it started (very humble beginnings) to where we all are now. That's not the point. I've met some very nice/smart/hardorking people that just can't get over the hump. It doesn't take much: a divorce; a family sickness; taking on a family member's children; can't get their foot in the door; etc. Things have to be aligned pretty well for even the hardest working people to elevate from their socio-economic strata, and it's very easy for a life to come off its track. It's obviously even harder for someone who went to a school that didn't do its job (of which there are many) or grew up in an environment where finishing school was not as urgent as helping put food on the table, taking care of siblings, etc.

 

[afgolfer]

[quote='BusNative;86782;3]I taught in the South Bronx for 2 years - much of the Bronx, but especially the South Bronx, falls into the lower 20%. There is little to no opportunity for many people in the area and the cycle of poverty, poor education, high cost and poor health keeps people where they are. It might be wrong to treat the South Bronx as a microcosm, but if it's any indication of how many of the bottom 20% must live, I stand by my statement.[/quote]

So you are saying that they are forced to stay there indstead of trying to move to an area where say the cost of living is less? Are there not programs out there where people can learn skills to improve thier status? What keeps these people bound to that area? Sure you grew up there, or all your family is there, but is that the governments fault that they havent gone out of thier way to try to improve thier social status?

I know there are many ways for lower income families to recieve aid to go to school, sadly, many dont apply for them or take advantage of the oportunities

 

[afgolfer]

[quote='BusNative;86783;1]Listen, I appluad your hard work. I like to think that my own hard work the very hard work of my parents helped to bring our family from where it started (very humble beginnings) to where we all are now. That's not the point. I've met some very nice/smart/hardorking people that just can't get over the hump. It doesn't take much: a divorce; a family sickness; taking on a family member's children; can't get their foot in the door; etc. Things have to be aligned pretty well for even the hardest working people to elevate from their socio-economic strata, and it's very easy for a life to come off its track. It's obviously even harder for someone who went to a school that didn't do its job (of which there are many) or grew up in an environment where finishing school was not as urgent as helping put food on the table, taking care of siblings, etc.[/quote]

I understand what you are saying, but at the same time, Things dont happen over night. Whuile thier are many things that can happen to delay someone from achieving thier goals, there is a difference from a significant event happening that the individual couldnt control to the mindset of "I cant get ahead" or someone who rely's on the government as the means of "getting ahead" It may take afew generations, but it is through the education of our youth starting with the parents that will get people over the hump, not feeling sorry for yourself and not doing thier part. I know people who finish highschool barely and then feel they are entitled to 40,000 starting out. this is what needs to change. In order to get a foot in the door, you need the skills to fill the postion. That would be like me as an NCO feeling that I should be a General. Same goes for the new college grad that feels he should have the same as his father who has been in a bussiness for 20 or more years. You start at the bottom and work towards the top, not finish an education and automatically be handed a company as CEO and the pay associated with it.

 

[PlanetFrnd]

So you are saying that they are forced to stay there indstead of trying to move to an area where say the cost of living is less? Are there not programs out there where people can learn skills to improve thier status? What keeps these people bound to that area? Sure you grew up there, or all your family is there, but is that the governments fault that they havent gone out of thier way to try to improve thier social status?

I know there are many ways for lower income families to recieve aid to go to school, sadly, many dont apply for them or take advantage of the oportunities

That's what confused me the most moving from Ohio to NYC - why would people, especially poorer immigrants, endure the extreme cost. I've found that the answers are too numerous and particular to individual situations that its not really worth debating here... the fact is that people, for whatever reason, can't always do what it takes, despite their hard work and best intentions.

I understand what you are saying, but at the same time, Things dont happen over night. Whuile thier are many things that can happen to delay someone from achieving thier goals, there is a difference from a significant event happening that the individual couldnt control to the mindset of "I cant get ahead" or someone who rely's on the government as the means of "getting ahead" It may take afew generations, but it is through the education of our youth starting with the parents that will get people over the hump, not feeling sorry for yourself and not doing thier part. I know people who finish highschool barely and then feel they are entitled to 40,000 starting out. this is what needs to change. In order to get a foot in the door, you need the skills to fill the postion. That would be like me as an NCO feeling that I should be a General. Same goes for the new college grad that feels he should have the same as his father who has been in a bussiness for 20 or more years. You start at the bottom and work towards the top, not finish an education and automatically be handed a company as CEO and the pay associated with it.

I agree with you completely in this post - expectations are completely skewed by (IMO) the non-stop imagery and celebration of extreme wealth.

But, as a former educator, your point about parents is the most important to me. At the boys school where I taught, you could always tell when a parent (especially a father) was not at home, and it was painfully obvious when there were no parents. The boys with a mom and dad at home generally performed better academically and socially. From what I saw, the home situations can make or break a kid's future before he's even gotten started.

 

[NewYorkBuck]

[quote='BusNative;86763;0]The opportunity is DEFINITELY not there for everyone in the bottom 20% - probably not even most or many.[/quote]

If you are talking about the US, there are few posts that I have disagreed more with. In this country, the opportunities are ABSOLUTELY there. I have never ever met one person in the US who totally dedicated themselves to success and have completely failed. I have, however, met dozens who sit on their asses and complain about how no one ever gave them a chance in life.

I can see if you live in a third world country where there really are no opportunities, then I agree with you. However, if you live in the US and you are not at least reasonably successful, you have absolutely no one to blame but yourself. Oppotunities are everywhere even if you give a half-assed effort, and I for one have no sympathy for those who dont.

 

[PlanetFrnd]

If you are talking about the US, there are few posts that I have disagreed more with. In this country, the opportunities are ABSOLUTELY there. I have never ever met one person in the US who totally dedicated themselves to success and have completely failed. I have, however, met dozens who sit on their asses and complain about how no one ever gave them a chance in life.

I can see if you live in a third world country where there really are no opportunities, then I agree with you. However, if you live in the US and you are not at least reasonably successful, you have absolutely no one to blame but yourself. Oppotunities are everywhere even if you give a half-assed effort, and I for one have no sympathy for those who dont.

America has BY FAR more opportunities than any other country in the world, but I maintain that the opportunities for the poor are

a) Far fewer than those available to those just one rung or two above
b) Harder to gain access to
c) More precarious and fleeting than for those even in the middle classes
d) Ridiculously fewer than those available to the wealthy

The increasing income/education/family gap in the US is a huge threat to "our way of life"

 

[redskinbucksfan]

[quote='BusNative;86801;7]America has BY FAR more opportunities than any other country in the world, but I maintain that the opportunities for the poor are

a) Far fewer than those available to those just one rung or two above
b) Harder to gain access to
c) More precarious and fleeting than for those even in the middle classes
d) Ridiculously fewer than those available to the wealthy

The increasing income/education/family gap in the US is a huge threat to "our way of life"[/quote]

Not trying to flip here, but I'm sure there are a large number of posters on this board who had descendants (if not the poster themselves) that faced being in the bottom 20% as new immigrants to this country. How did they rise up? More of a welfare state helping them? Less? Greater work ethic? Superior schools? Affirmative Action?

 

[PlanetFrnd]

Not trying to flip here, but I'm sure there are a large number of posters on this board who had descendants (if not the poster themselves) that faced being in the bottom 20% as new immigrants to this country. How did they rise up? More of a welfare state helping them? Less? Greater work ethic? Superior schools? Affirmative Action?

It's probably a combination of all of those things, of course, this board is at least marginally self-selective to the high end of the 20% if not completely outside of it given the need to have a computer and internet access.

 

[MaxBuck]

[quote='BusNative;86801;7]America has BY FAR more opportunities than any other country in the world, but I maintain that the opportunities for the poor are

a) Far fewer than those available to those just one rung or two above
b) Harder to gain access to
c) More precarious and fleeting than for those even in the middle classes
d) Ridiculously fewer than those available to the wealthy

The increasing income/education/family gap in the US is a huge threat to "our way of life"[/quote]
I don't disagree that opportunities seem scarce to many in the lower class, especially those in depressed inner cities. However, most of the apparent scarcity can IMO be attributed to systemic problems in the social structure those people perpetuate -- the "crabs in a barrel" syndrome being a prime example. There is a real jealousy present in humans that can, under some circumstances, conspire to create an anti-success ethos. That seems to be a real problem in many areas of our great nation, and it's very challenging to overcome.

Educational opportunities have never been greater for those who energetically seek them. It's always been easier to become a millionaire if you begin as a billionaire, but don't kid yourself, almost anyone can succeed in the USA if they have sufficient motivation and discipline.

 

[fourteenandoh]

Back to China

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/08/07/bcnchina107a.xml

China threatens 'nuclear option' of dollar sales


By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard

Last Updated: 1:48am BST 08/08/2007





The Chinese government has begun a concerted campaign of economic threats against the United States, hinting that it may liquidate its vast holding of US treasuries if Washington imposes trade sanctions to force a yuan revaluation.
Two officials at leading Communist Party bodies have given interviews in recent days warning - for the first time - that Beijing may use its $1.33 trillion (?658bn) of foreign reserves as a political weapon to counter pressure from the US Congress. Shifts in Chinese policy are often announced through key think tanks and academies.
Described as China's "nuclear option" in the state media, such action could trigger a dollar crash at a time when the US currency is already breaking down through historic support levels.

 

[Mike80]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/08/07/bcnchina107a.xml

China threatens 'nuclear option' of dollar sales


By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard

Last Updated: 1:48am BST 08/08/2007





The Chinese government has begun a concerted campaign of economic threats against the United States, hinting that it may liquidate its vast holding of US treasuries if Washington imposes trade sanctions to force a yuan revaluation.
Two officials at leading Communist Party bodies have given interviews in recent days warning - for the first time - that Beijing may use its $1.33 trillion (?658bn) of foreign reserves as a political weapon to counter pressure from the US Congress. Shifts in Chinese policy are often announced through key think tanks and academies.
Described as China's "nuclear option" in the state media, such action could trigger a dollar crash at a time when the US currency is already breaking down through historic support levels.

Saying this would hurt is putting things mildly....

You are a money trader right? would there be buyers for the dollar or would this sell-off not be countered by bargain hunters?

 

[PlanetFrnd]

Hmmmmm ... tons of government spending combined with a weak-dollar policy combined with a go-at-it-alone policy?

Our government has caused this to happen.