DE Vernon Gholston (Official Thread)

[jlb1705]

Well if Ryan can't coach him no one can. That guy is so full of himself, Ryan that is.

Apparently Mel Kiper's mouth is full of him too.

Players fit schemes and schemes fit players.

Profound.

 

[zincfinger]

...but LT was an every down player...

Yes he was. My argument is that he was an every down player because he was exceptional at rushing the quarterback, and despite the fact that he was fairly mediocre at run defense, and a non-factor in covering receivers (something he was rarely asked to do. It was a waste of his forte.) Maybe Gholston isn't an especially effective pass-rusher. Maybe he's way below mediocre in run defense. My point is that it's possible to run a 3-4 that includes a LB edge rusher that is an every down player, but who is out there almost entirely due to his ability to get into the backfield.

 

[sparcboxbuck]

I doubt it, you don't change your entire defense around a second year player.

May have been an attempt at hyperbole on my part...

 

[3074326]

Yes he was. My argument is that he was an every down player because he was exceptional at rushing the quarterback, and despite the fact that he was fairly mediocre at run defense, and a non-factor in covering receivers (something he was rarely asked to do. It was a waste of his forte.) Maybe Gholston isn't an especially effective pass-rusher. Maybe he's way below mediocre in run defense. My point is that it's possible to run a 3-4 that includes a LB edge rusher that is an every down player, but who is out there almost entirely due to his ability to get into the backfield.

Gholston isn't LT. If the Jets put Vern out there to rush EVERY DOWN, the offense would just block him because they knew it was coming.

The Jets aren't going to do anything different. They had a top defense in the NFL. They shouldn't do anything different. Vern either just needs to get better or somehow get on a different team with a different scheme.

 

[Meyer]

I've said it elsewhere in this thread I think but I'll say it until the day he retires....we all watched him line up 1 on 1 with Jake Long in college and kick his ass on multiple plays in multiple years. You just don't lose that kind of ability.

AGREE. PUT HIM AT DE. He's not a LB. He's too stiff, not agile enough. You're so right. You don't beat Jake Long, the number one pick and a pro bowler (I think) consistently if you aren't good enough.

He has the speed, hands, and power to be a sick DE in the NFL. Stop playing like he is terrible. Typical NY media.

His skill set isn't suited for LB, it's suited for DE which is where he should be playing, period!

 

[Buckeneye]

I was so hoping for a Browns overhaul and tank job where they could have drafted Suh, put him next to Rogers in the middle, slide Wimbley down to DE, and sign Vern after he got cut.

A pipe dream....

I'm all down for that except replace Wimbley with Veikune and you got a deal.

different conversation for a different thread.


Hope big Vern ends up as a rush end. If he can learn to properly diagnose and play against the run then he could be a rather acceptable 4-3 DE.

 

[Thump]

If Vern wore a different college uniform would so many of you be defending him so?

He's been a bust, period.

 

[Buckeneye]

If Vern wore a different college uniform would so many of you be defending him so?

He's been a bust, period.

Not defending him at all - he's played poorly for a position expected to excel at. However I do recognize the difference between playing poorly and not being right for the position management expects you to undertake.

He tried, and so far, failed.

If he makes a comeback as a legit rush end, would that reverse his "bust" status? Or is he just a "bust" at OLB?

 

[Jaxbuck]

If Vern wore a different college uniform would so many of you be defending him so?

He's been a bust, period.

If I saw any college player do well enough to be drafted top 5 and then struggle after a position switch in the NFL I would at the very least think out loud maybe he needs to go back to his old position because he was pretty damn good at that.

Unless of course it was a scUM player or Tebow. They would just be busts.

 

[Thump]

You think the Jets haven't played around with Vern at end in some practices?

If he were that great playing end in this scheme, they would move him there.

The modern day Mike Mamula.

 

[3074326]

You think the Jets haven't played around with Vern at end in some practices?

If he were that great playing end in this scheme, they would move him there.

The modern day Mike Mamula.

He's not a 3-4 DE or OLB. If he's going to be successful in the NFL it's pretty clear that it's not going to be in a 3-4. So far he's a bust for sure - but his tools (or lack of) suit him pretty well at DE in a 4-3. 3-4 DEs are space eaters, something that Vern isn't.

Not saying he'd be a beast at 4-3, but I'd be surprised if he were as unsuccessful at it as he has been in a 3-4. I don't think he's going to live up to expectations no matter what, unfortunately.

 

[billmac91]

You think the Jets haven't played around with Vern at end in some practices?

If he were that great playing end in this scheme, they would move him there.

The modern day Mike Mamula.

???

Are you suggesting a 264lb DE in a 3-4 scheme??? He's played their sparingly as a reserve, but thats not going to cut it in the NFL....

 

[billmac91]

He's not a 3-4 DE or OLB. If he's going to be successful in the NFL it's pretty clear that it's not going to be in a 3-4. So far he's a bust for sure - but his tools (or lack of) suit him pretty well at DE in a 4-3. 3-4 DEs are space eaters, something that Vern isn't.

Not saying he'd be a beast at 4-3, but I'd be surprised if he were as unsuccessful at it as he has been in a 3-4. I don't think he's going to live up to expectations no matter what, unfortunately.

The thing about Vern as a 4-3 DE is at least he isn't going to be mauled. At the very least he can get penetration and force some offensive lineman back. Even as a pass rusher in a 3-4 you have to read gaps and find holes in the offensive blocking scheme. Put Vern 1 on 1 with an OT and let him use his muscle and straight line speed. I'm having doubts about living up to expectations as well, but I can promise you if he had been playing for a team like the Bucs, Colts, any Tampa 2 team.....he'd be fairing a hell of lot better.

 

[Jaxbuck]

You think the Jets haven't played around with Vern at end in some practices?

If he were that great playing end in this scheme, they would move him there.

The modern day Mike Mamula.

as others have pointed out, if you don't know the difference between a 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DE there is no point trying to have a discussion about it.

 

[Pimpinnati]

If Vern wore a different college uniform would so many of you be defending him so?

He's been a bust, period.

Absolutely. I find it hilarious that the team with the 6th pick overall takes a guy they plan on moving from Defensive Line to Linebacker.

That's on the Jets. You don't draft someone that high with the intent of moving them to a new position. It's too big a risk. I lambasted my own Cincinnati Bengals for drafting David Pollack to move to LB from DE. It was a collossal blunder by Marvin and by the end of it we were seeing Pollack being used as a pass rusher more than a LB.

If he were that great playing end in this scheme, they would move him there.

So you think 3-4 DE's are the same as 4-3 DE's? Because the LAST thing you do is with a 3-4 is plug in an undersized guy. You want a space eater to occupy blockers to allow the LBs to flow the the ball.

At any point does that sound like Vernon?

Like I stated this morning, give him a chance to play the position he played in College at the highest of levels. If he flops then he's a bust. No if's ands or buts about it. I just happen to believe he would start to have success. And success breeds confidence. And confidence breeds more success.