Cam Newton (QB New England Patriots)

[Tlangs]

Gordon Gee comments on Boise and TCU's schedule and Chris Fowler actually gets angry and critisizes OSU and then in the following weeks AP poll, puts two teams with two losses ahead of the Buckeyes on his ballot.

Cam Newtons father has admitted to seeking cash for his son's services but it won't affect his Heisman ballot at all. Nor will he say anything even remotely negative about Cam, Cam's father, Auburn, or Mississipi State.

Interesting.

 

[Nutriaitch]

If Cam Newton wasn't about to play in the National Title game, Auburn or the SEC would have sat his ass down 4 weeks ago at minimum.

Maybe, but Cam Newton wound up with no shot at the NC and no chance of the Heisman, there's always the chance that it's the NCAA that gets its rear called into court to defend its decision and the impact on his future NFL earnings. Waiting until the case is airtight means a gigantic mess for college football, but my guess would be that it is an attempt to protect the NCAA itself from that liability at least. They are probably also concerned about the whole question of the NCAA's authority coming into question, too. Which it is anyway. Looks like what we have here is the beginning of a serial drama.

maybe they would have been sued. no way of knowing for sure.

but in every other case i can remember, the moment an eligibility issue is raised, the kid has to sit until the issue is resolved.

then he is either reinstated or suspended depending on the finding.

Auburn was notified in July of a potential eligibility issue.
they waited 6 months (and a full regular season) before sitting him.

Dillon Baxter had to wait 4 days for the NCAA to decide a ride on a golf cart wasn't a major rules violation. He even missed a game during that 4 day stretch.

They ruled so quickly on this clusterphuck of a case that Cam didn't even miss a practice.

My questions:

Why does Cam get to play while his eligibility is up in the air, but no one else gets that opportunity?

Why does it take the NCAA a minimum of several days (usually more) to clear/slam these other kids and schools after sitting them, but Auburn gets their answer in less than 24 hours?


Think about it.
AJ Green sold a jersey to someone "who fits the description of an agent".
In other words, he ain't an agent, but he fits the description of one.

Simple case. It took them 9 days (including a game) to make a ruling. Over a month if count from the time UGA was 1st notified of the NCAA inquiry.
Another 6 days to rule on his appeal.

15 freaking days for a case that had no twists or turn, or secret meetings.
UGA cooperated so did AJ.

The Cam case is a mess. Witnesses popping up everywhere. Supposed text messages, voice mails, etc. Did Cam know, did he not? Was there money or not? etc. etc.

24 hours.

This reeks of insider trading type shit.

 

[BB73]

Gator, did you see this in the Sally Jenkins article on the previous page?

Granted, NCAA bylaw 12.3.3 states that "any individual, agency or organization that represents a prospective student-athlete for compensation in placing the prospect in a collegiate institution . . . shall be considered an agent or organization marketing the individual's athletics ability or reputation." And the rules say that being shopped by an agent should make you ineligible.

I realize there are legal concepts like hearsay evidence and burden of proof invloved, but the NCAA isn't a courtroom. In the same way that Roger Goodell suspends NFL athletes, I believe the NCAA could have used it bylaws and powers to declare Cam Newton ineligible solely based on the actions of his father.

I think they didn't because of these reasons: 1) they were fearful of a lawsuit from Auburn (although I would like their chances in that lawsuit), and 2) they think they'll make more money with Auburn in the BCS Title Game.

I also believe that Mike Slive, as commissioner of the SEC, had the power to declare Cam ineligible based on SEC and NCAA bylaws, but I'm not at all surprised that he didn't do it - he's more interested in the glory of SEC teams winning a championship.

I think it's bad for college football to have tainted champions - which I believe will eventually happen to Auburn if they win it, and that's why I'm hoping it won't happen. I'd feel the same way if it were Oklahoma or Iowa involved instead of Auburn.

 

[osugrad21]

Joakim Noah...no theirs a scholar athlete!!!

 

[NFBuck]

oofah...

 

[OSU_D/]

Dez Bryant was ruled ineligible, largely because he lied about it

The NCAA absolutely can rule Cam ineligible. They just don't want to do so. Lying to a governing body should have consequences, particularly when the second version of the truth involves attempted cheating (if not more).

Unless that governing body is little more than a punchline unless someone else does their job for them beforehand.

Granted, NCAA bylaw 12.3.3 states that "any individual, agency or organization that represents a prospective student-athlete for compensation in placing the prospect in a collegiate institution . . . shall be considered an agent or organization marketing the individual's athletics ability or reputation." And the rules say that being shopped by an agent should make you ineligible.

One program is from the Big 12. One is from the SEC. We know exactly why one is ineligible and the other isn't. We know exactly why one had his case expedited while others weren't.

There are only 3 programs in that conference worth respecting: Vandy, UGA, UF.

 

[cincibuck]

You cannot use supposition and inference to replace actual facts. Everybody keeps doing it. I don't get why.

'cuz it's so much more fun than waiting for a bunch of ol' slow poke, stick in the mud, anti fun legal types. Lynch 'em while they're hot!

 

[Gatorubet]

maybe they would have been sued. no way of knowing for sure.

but in every other case i can remember, the moment an eligibility issue is raised, the kid has to sit until the issue is resolved.

then he is either reinstated or suspended depending on the finding.

Auburn was notified in July of a potential eligibility issue.
they waited 6 months (and a full regular season) before sitting him.

Dillon Baxter had to wait 4 days for the NCAA to decide a ride on a golf cart wasn't a major rules violation. He even missed a game during that 4 day stretch.

They ruled so quickly on this clusterphuck of a case that Cam didn't even miss a practice.

My questions:

Why does Cam get to play while his eligibility is up in the air, but no one else gets that opportunity?

Why does it take the NCAA a minimum of several days (usually more) to clear/slam these other kids and schools after sitting them, but Auburn gets their answer in less than 24 hours?


Think about it.
AJ Green sold a jersey to someone "who fits the description of an agent".
In other words, he ain't an agent, but he fits the description of one.

Simple case. It took them 9 days (including a game) to make a ruling. Over a month if count from the time UGA was 1st notified of the NCAA inquiry.
Another 6 days to rule on his appeal.

15 freaking days for a case that had no twists or turn, or secret meetings.
UGA cooperated so did AJ.

The Cam case is a mess. Witnesses popping up everywhere. Supposed text messages, voice mails, etc. Did Cam know, did he not? Was there money or not? etc. etc.

24 hours.

This reeks of insider trading type [censored].

You forget the little issue that AJ was found to have sold his jersey. As in - he DID sell his jersey. As in he DID receive extra benefits. Green is not a case where we are discussing "agreements" to benefit or Green's dad maybe getting some money for his Church in a very questionable.

So if people cannot see the distinction between sitting down a guy who admitted getting money for a jersey - and a guy who has a father that possibly or even likely may have done so, but right now has not been shown to have received any money, I don't know what to say...

I expect Auburn and Cam to burn. I don't expect that to happen until more facts are in. I have a 99.9% belief that the Barners and Cam will go down. I just don't think it will happen with the rapidity that everyone wants, which I agree is a shame.

 

[dragurd]

Gator quit being willfully blind. Unless you want to argue that the NCAA knew exactly what happened in the UNC mess this season there is no way Cam should of been playing with his eligibility in doubt.

 

[Gatorubet]

Gator, did you see this in the Sally Jenkins article on the previous page?

Let's look at the NCAA rules on Agents. You brought up 12.3.3

12.3.3 is only one of a number of rules that have to be read in Pari Materia. That means if you look at a rule, you have to look to see if it is only one of a bunch of rules covering the same subject, and it they do, then you have to read them in light of ALL the rules to get a clearer picture of what they mean in light of the whole set of rules governing that subject. As these are, they must be read in pari materia and construed with reference to each other.

Here are the ones that relate to agents:

11.1.4 Representing Individuals in Marketing Athletics Ability/Reputation.
Staff members of the athletics department of a member institution shall not
represent, directly or indirectly, any individual in the marketing of athletics
ability or reputation to an agent, a professional sports team or a professional
sports organization, including receiving compensation for arranging
commercial endorsements or personal appearances for former student-
athletes, except as specified in Bylaw 11.1.4.1, and shall not receive
compensation or gratuities of any kind, directly or indirectly, for such
services.

12.1.1 Amateur Status. An individual loses amateur status and thus shall not
be eligible for intercollegiate competition in a particular sport if the
individual:

(a) Uses his or her athletics skill (directly or indirectly) for pay in any form
in that sport;

(b) Accepts a promise of pay even if such pay is to be received following
completion of intercollegiate athletics participation;

(c) Signs a contract or commitment of any kind to play professional athletics,
regardless of its legal enforceability or any consideration received;

(d) Receives, directly or indirectly, a salary, reimbursement of expenses or
any other form of financial assistance from a professional sports organization
based upon athletics skill or participation, except as permitted by NCAA rules and regulations;

(e) Competes on any professional athletics team (per Bylaw 12.02.4), even if
no pay or remuneration for expenses was received;

(f) Subsequent to initial full-time collegiate enrollment, enters into a
professional draft (see also Bylaw 12.2.4.2.1); or

(g) Enters into an agreement with an agent.

12.1.1.1.3.1 Educational Expenses ? Prior to Collegiate Enrollment. A
prospective student-athlete may receive educational expenses (i.e., tuition,
fees, room and board, and books) prior to collegiate enrollment from any
individual or entity other than an agent, professional sports
team/organization or a representative of an institution's athletics interests,
provided such expenses are disbursed directly through the recipient's
educational institution (e.g., high school, preparatory school).

12.2.4.3 Negotiations. An individual may request information about
professional market value without affecting his or her amateur status.
Further, the individual, his or her legal guardians or the institution's
professional sports counseling panel may enter into negotiations with a
professional sports organization without the loss of the individual's amateur
status. An individual who retains an agent shall lose amateur status.

12.2.5.1 Nonbinding Agreement. An individual who signs a contract or
commitment that does not become binding until the professional
organization's representative or agent also signs the document is ineligible,
even if the contract remains unsigned by the other parties until after the
student-athlete's eligibility is exhausted.

12.3.1 General Rule. An individual shall be ineligible for participation in an
intercollegiate sport if he or she ever has agreed (orally or in writing) to be
represented by an agent for the purpose of marketing his or her athletics
ability or reputation in that sport. Further, an agency contract not specifically
limited in writing to a sport or particular sports shall be deemed applicable to
all sports, and the individual shall be ineligible to participate in any sport.

12.3.1.1 Representation for Future Negotiations. An individual shall be
ineligible per Bylaw 12.3.1 if he or she enters into a verbal or written
agreement with an agent for representation in future professional sports
negotiations that are to take place after the individual has completed his or
her eligibility in that sport.

12.3.1.2 Benefits from Prospective Agents. An individual shall be ineligible
per Bylaw 12.3.1 if he or she (or his or her relatives or friends) accepts
transportation or other benefits from:

(a) Any person who represents any individual in the marketing of his or her
athletics ability. The receipt of such expenses constitutes compensation based
on athletics skill and is an extra benefit not available to the student body in
general; or

(b) An agent, even if the agent has indicated that he or she has no interest in
representing the student-athlete in the marketing of his or her athletics
ability or reputation and does not represent individuals in the student-
athlete's sport.

12.3.2 Legal Counsel. Securing advice from a lawyer concerning a proposed
professional sports contract shall not be considered contracting for
representation by an agent under this rule, unless the lawyer also represents
the individual in negotiations for such a contract.

12.3.2.1 Presence of a Lawyer at Negotiations. A lawyer may not be present
during discussions of a contract offer with a professional organization or have
any direct contact (i.e., in person, by telephone or by mail) with a
professional sports organization on behalf of the individual. A lawyer's
presence during such discussions is considered representation by an agent.

12.3.3 Athletics Scholarship Agent. Any individual, agency or organization
that represents a prospective student-athlete for compensation in placing the
prospect in a collegiate institution as a recipient of institutional financial aid
shall be considered an agent or organization marketing the individual's
athletics ability or reputation.

12.3.3.1 Talent Evaluation Services and Agents. A prospect may allow a
scouting service or agent to distribute personal information (e.g., high-school
academic and athletics records, physical statistics) to member institutions
without jeopardizing his or her eligibility, provided the fee paid to such an
agent is not based on placing the prospect in a collegiate institution as a
recipient of institutional financial aid.

Look at 12.3.1.1 "Any individual, agency or organization that represents a prospective student-athlete for compensation....."

That is why the whole Cam's knowledge comes into play. It has to be looked at with the general rule 121.3.1 "An individual shall be ineligible for participation in an intercollegiate sport if he or she ever has agreed (orally or in writing) to be represented by an agent .."

Unless you show Cam knew about it and agreed to let his dad represent him, then his dad is NOT his agent.

I realize there are legal concepts like hearsay evidence and burden of proof invloved, but the NCAA isn't a courtroom.

Neither is a fight in a back street alley. But everything that is done there is subject to the rule of law, both civil and criminally. Slive could have done many things, but the question is more would his ruling been legitimate and legal.

In the same way that Roger Goodell suspends NFL athletes, I believe the NCAA could have used it bylaws and powers to declare Cam Newton ineligible solely based on the actions of his father.

I don't think so - at this time.

I think they didn't because of these reasons: 1) they were fearful of a lawsuit from Auburn (although I would like their chances in that lawsuit), and 2) they think they'll make more money with Auburn in the BCS Title Game.

Very possible.

I also believe that Mike Slive, as commissioner of the SEC, had the power to declare Cam ineligible based on SEC and NCAA bylaws, but I'm not at all surprised that he didn't do it - he's more interested in the glory of SEC teams winning a championship.

His power is only derived from the rules that govern both entities, no less and no more. If you can find a rule that says he can, he can. If not, then he is doing the prudent thing. The fact that the prudent thing is also self serving is something that sometimes happens.

I think it's bad for college football to have tainted champions - which I believe will eventually happen to Auburn if they win it, and that's why I'm hoping it won't happen. I'd feel the same way if it were Oklahoma or Iowa involved instead of Auburn.

I agree whole heartedly

 

[jimotis4heisman]

You forget the little issue that AJ was found to have sold his jersey. As in - he DID sell his jersey. As in he DID receive extra benefits. Green is not a case where we are discussing "agreements" to benefit or Green's dad maybe getting some money for his Church in a very questionable.

So if people cannot see the distinction between sitting down a guy who admitted getting money for a jersey - and a guy who has a father that possibly or even likely may have done so, but right now has not been shown to have received any money, I don't know what to say...

I expect Auburn and Cam to burn. I don't expect that to happen until more facts are in. I have a 99.9% belief that the Barners and Cam will go down. I just don't think it will happen with the rapidity that everyone wants, which I agree is a shame.

what the usc thing took 5 years? i dont think it will take that long, but id guess it will be more likely measured in years, not days...

 

[exhawg]

Seems to by playing like a guy that knows it is all going to fall apart in the near future. Making the most out of it while he can.

 

[Emperor Brutus]

Robert is watching you.

 

[BB73]

His power is only derived from the rules that govern both entities, no less and no more. If you can find a rule that says he can, he can. If not, then he is doing the prudent thing. The fact that the prudent thing is also self serving is something that sometimes happens.

I posted this on November 18th, and my opinion hasn't changed.

He has the power to declare an athlete ineligible based on the "spirit, as well as the letter, of the Conference rules and regulations".

So he could have done so, he just chose not to. Sorry, no Latin from me.

This.thread.Post

I believe that Slive, if he wanted to, could access enough information in the next few days in order to make a determination on Newton and Auburn. He doesn't need to wait for the NCAA investigation to be complete, or for some legal procedings against some of the Auburn boosters to conclude in order to make a decision. And he doesn't need NCAA approval of his decisions.

Here's something from the SEC bylaws, Section 14.01.3.2:


Quote:
"If at any time before or after matriculation in a member institution a student-athlete or any member of his/her family receives or agrees to receive, directly or indirectly, any aid or assistance beyond or in addition to that permitted by the Bylaws of this Conference (except such aid or assistance as such student-athlete may receive from those persons on whom the student is naturally or legally dependent for support), such student-athlete shall be ineligible for competition in any intercollegiate sport within the Conference for the remainder of his/her college career."
This is from Section 4.4.2, on the powers and duties of the SEC Commissioner:

Quote:

The Commissioner shall be charged with the duty of administering and enforcing the legislation of the Conference, and shall be vested with broad discretionary authority to carry out the duties of the office, including the assessment of penalties outlined in Article 4.4.3. Subject only to the review procedures established therein, the Commissioner shall have the duty to inspect, investigate and determine violations, and the authority to impose penalties and sanctions against member institutions, including their athletic staff members and their student-athletes, for practices and conduct which violate the spirit, as well as the letter of the Conference rules and regulations;​

(b) The Commissioner shall have jurisdiction on all questions of student eligibility for intercollegiate athletic competition and may appoint an advisory committee on eligibility and infractions and base actions on consultations with this committee;
(c) The Commissioner is authorized to issue such interpretations, rules, regulations, memoranda, instructions, forms and procedures as may be necessary in the performance of these duties, and in standardizing practices of the Conference;​

Section 4.4.3

Quote:

4.4.3 Authority for Penalties.

Particular authority of the Commissioner with respect to penalties and sanctions is as follows:

(a) Any member institution which violates any of the provisions of the Bylaws, rules or regulations of the Conference shall be subject to a fine imposed at the discretion of the Commissioner for each such violation. Suspension of any of the penalties authorized to be imposed may be recommended by the Commissioner to the Executive Committee.​

Revised 6/1/02]​

(b) The Commissioner shall have the duty to investigate and the authority to determine violations and to impose penalties and sanctions against member institutions, athletics staff members, coaches and student-athletes for practices and conduct which violate the spirit as well as letter of the Conference rules and regulations. Among the disciplinary measures, singly or in combination, that may be adopted by the Commissioner are:​

(1) Suspension from contests or other athletically related activities;​

 

[jlb1705]

NOBODY circles the wagons the SEC.