Buying a Gun

[Taosman]

Please, buy American for goodness sake!
Or something made here.

 

[Mike80]

Due to recent crime in the area I'm thinking about purchasing a handgun. Any suggestions on a chaper reliable, solid pistol?

Whatever you buy, make sure you're comfortable with it, can handle it, can be accurate with it and you are buying it because it's the one you want, not because it's what came recommended or where it was made.

 

[lvbuckeye]

wow, no love for the Springfield XD series. they're are very good guns.

thinking about picking up a new XDs.

 

[Muck]

Sorry for the delay but I completely missed this post...

Hell, .22 LR will produce a pass thru too under the right circumstances (and that is from personal experience) doesn't change what I was saying.

And what you were saying was inaccurate. 9mm ball does not over-penetrate vis a vis .45 ball. Both will penetrate well over 20" of ballistic gelatin. Our after action reports in Somalia & Iraq showed that M1911 ball consistently perforated the entire torso.

This is a generalization but lighter/faster projectiles are not more likely to penetrate deeper than heavier/slower ones. While they have a higher initial velocity they also shed velocity faster. The greater mass allows heavier/slower projectiles to do a better job of maintaining momentum. .

All of which is moot when we live in an age when there is no reason to be using FMJ rounds unless legally constrained to do so by the Hague Convention. Modern JHPs cycle reliably in automatics & consistently expand under realistic engagement scenarios while penetrating deeply enough to meet FBI recommendations.

As to where much of the debate about 'over penetration' started...

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]The fear of over-penetration is a misconception which was created back when law enforcement was trying to overcome misinformed public resistance to the use of hollow point ammunition. In the process, we began to believe it ourselves. First, our lawyers are unaware of any successful legal action resulting from the injury of a bystander due to a round over-penetrating the subject. We are aware of numerous instances of Agents/officers being killed because their round did not penetrate enough (Grogan and Dove, for example). Further, if you examine shooting statistics you will see that officers hit the subject somewhere around 20-30% of the time. Thus 70-80% of the shots fired never hit their intended target, and nobody ever worries about them - only the ones that might "overpenetrate" the bad guy. Third, as our testing shows, even the most frangible bullets designed specifically for shallow penetration will plug up when striking wood or wallboard and then penetrate like full metal jacketed ammunition.

We are aware of successful legal actions where an innocent party has been struck by a shot passing through a wall, but as we have proven, ALL of them will do that.

Another overlooked factor is that frequently the bullet must penetrate some obstacle before reaching the desired target area, such as glass, clothing, arms, etc. If all of our shots were at the subject's unobstructed, frontal chest area then the required penetration could be less, but such ideal conditions are seldom present."[/FONT]

Source

In regards to Zombie max I guess if you are worried about perception vs effectiveness of a particular round either hire a better attorney if it comes to that or shoot a more vanilla round. My point was the zombie max is the same as critical defense other than color. I certainly wouldn't rule out crit. def. because it might be perceived as sounding too lethal, effective, scary etc. I don't see how shooting a round that is marketed to be effective against something that doesn't exist i.e. a "zombie" becomes a legal issue unless your attorney is incompetent.

We've been discussing a round whose name was changed by the manufacturer over negative press due almost solely to it's name. Combined with black plastic furniture on a rifle commonly portrayed as a dangerous feature only suitable for military weapons, it's pretty evident that public perception is a very real concern. It's reasonable to decide that employing ammunition with an intentionally hyperbolic marketing is an acceptable risk but ignoring it completely is not a wise choice.

That being said I would be wary of using Critical Defense in the first place until I had better data on it's performance as the manufacturer chose to forgo submitting it to the FBI testing protocols.

Ranger might be evolved Black Talon (and Ranger is an exceptional round esp. for the price) but from a performance standpoint, specifically how the round acts upon striking the target, the information that I have been able to acquire suggests that Gold Saber acts more like Black Talon
than Ranger does.

The lineage of the cartridge is easily documented. When Winchester took Black Talon off the market after the media firestorm it was almost immediately replaced by SXT.

SXT is Black Talon. The only change was removal of the black lubalox coating & swapping the nickel cases for standard brass. IT has long been an open secret at the name itself has was an internal joke...Same eXact Thing.

Later it was re-badged Ranger SXT & marketed towards law enforcement. More recently the name was changed to Ranger T. Minor changes have continously been made to increase performance.

In short...current (5th gen) Ranger T is product improved Black Talon & has improved performance over the original version.

.45 ACP Ranger-T 5th Gen 230gr & Golden Saber 185gr:

You might be conusing it with Supreme SXT which was introduced around the same time as the Ranger name. The Supreme line was marketed as the civilian counterpart to LE focused Ranger line. While it shares some features with Black Talon/Ranger SXT/T, Supreme SXT is a different design. It includes two additional scored lines giving it eight 'petals' instead of the six of BT/Ranger T. It also lacks the tips (talons) of the petals which were part of the media hysteria. Essentially Supreme SXT is a politically correct neutered version of Black Talon.

9mm Supreme SXT 147gr:

And next to a .380 102gr Golden Saber (apples to oranges but useful for comparing the petal design):

IRT to the influence of Black Talon on modern JHPs in general, in addition to Golden Saber; Barnes XPB (Cor-Bon DPX), Speer Gold Dot & Federal HST are all somewhat similar in design.

Have to agree to disagree on the bird shot. Most shots fired at assailants are much less than 20 feet, more likely to be about 6 feet. This
makes the bird shot even more effective. Short of a ballistic vest bird shot will kill effectively at that distance and won't over penetrate. The picture you attached appears to be from much farther than 20 feet judging from the size of the pattern on the person's torso. The pattern from even a cylinder bore choke should be measured in inches from 20 feet rather than in feet so not sure what that picture represented.

The individual in the photo answered his front door & was confronted by two individuals wielding short barrelled shotguns (the exact length was never specified). He was shot in the back as he turned to run. Distance was under 3m (10'). He contiued to flee & managed to reach a neighbor's home.

Even at contact distances birdshot does not consistently penetrate deeply enough to ensure reliable rapid incapacitation of an assailant. That is not debatable. It is corroborated in test after test by reputable agencies (FBI FTU, Dr. Fackler etc). Furthermore Buckshot is no more likely to over-penetrate a human being than a typical high quality handgun JHP. The consensus within the tactical & defense communities overwhelmingly recommend against using birdshot as a self defense load.

Yes birdshot can kill, so can .22LR, .32ACP or a rock to the head. That isn't in question; however what IS in question is their ability to produce wounds that are capable of consistently & quickly stopping a determined attacker through physiological means. Many attackers are not determined and cease their actions when shot due to psychological (fear, pain, ingrained notions of what you are supposed to do when shot) reasons. Stopping an assailant solely due to a psychological reaction cannot be relied on consistently, the only way to consistently & decisively stop an individual is by making them physically incapable of action either through destruction of the CNS or loss of consciousness due to massive blood loss.

For those of you who don't already have preconceived notions:
If you take nothing else from my posts; please, seriously take the time & research the subject fully before you decide to entrust your life or the lives of others to the performance of birdshot in a lethal encounter.

 

[Muck]

Does anyone own a Glock? Specifically, the G19?

They are a well built & reliable firearms from a company with a good track record of customer service and which have had a long production run so spare parts will never be an issue. If you have fired them and they feel comfortable in your hand there is no reason not to go with the brand.

If you are buying used avoid the early production run of the Gen 4 Glocks as they had various teething issues. Other than that you're good to go.

That's from a card carrying Glock hater. :)

 

[muffler dragon]

Muck (et al):

I have a friend (ex-Marine) who particularly likes the Ruger GP100 when I asked him about revolvers. I've held one and liked the weight, but I was curious if there is anything you would recommend when considering a revolver? My initial interest ties in with what you wrote above about stopping assailants. I've thought about shotguns for home defense, and I will likely go that route in time. However, I like the idea of a revolver due to the lack of steps to get from gun retrieval to use. Some of the superfluous questions that I have would be based on $/bullet so that I can get used to the gun through use, recoil amount, things of that sort. TIA as I know it's a lot to dance around in my post.

 

[matt_thatsme]

Any upland bird hunters here? I am looking for a good, new or used, semiauto 16 gauge shotgun to buy my father for Christmas. He is lugging around a Browning o/u Citori 12 Ga. from the1970s right now.

Any recommendations?

 

[WyoBuck]

wow, no love for the Springfield XD series. they're are very good guns.

thinking about picking up a new XDs.

I own an XD45. Simple, safe, economical, and reliable. Sort of like a Glock. Holds a LOT of rounds. Maybe a tick above an adequate go to gun in a high stress situation. Just like any tool, it has it's function. It has it's trade offs too. Pretty heavy, bulky and not that comfortable to carry. It's definitely accurate enough, but not designed for precision. Not really a hatchet, but definitely more of a butcher knife than a scalpel. Good semi auto work horse. Doesn't like to eat anything but FMJ or JHP, so it's not the most economical gun out there for those of you that reload and want to use lead cast bullets on the range (lands and grooves, not polygonal rifling). Even after polishing the feed ramp. It feels really good in my hand though, so for me, the ergonomics are great. Trigger pull is a little long, but not too heavy. If you are used to shooting, say a 1911, you probably won't love it. I would definitely put it in the category of "more than serviceable" though. In fact, I'm pretty happy with it, for what it is.

 

[Muck]

Muck (et al):

I have a friend (ex-Marine) who particularly likes the Ruger GP100 when I asked him about revolvers. I've held one and liked the weight, but I was curious if there is anything you would recommend when considering a revolver? My initial interest ties in with what you wrote above about stopping assailants. I've thought about shotguns for home defense, and I will likely go that route in time. However, I like the idea of a revolver due to the lack of steps to get from gun retrieval to use. Some of the superfluous questions that I have would be based on $/bullet so that I can get used to the gun through use, recoil amount, things of that sort. TIA as I know it's a lot to dance around in my post.

A good .357 is about the most versatile pistol available. It'll handle anything from standard pressure .38 up through the hottest .357 loadings.

Since it doesn't appear that you are focusing on something for CCW you might want to stick with a 4" barrel.

If you are shooting a lot of .38 out of it pay particular attention to the chamber when cleaning.

Felt recoil is dependent on a lot of factors but if you are going with a .357 you can easily find loads that are comfortable to shoot....38, .38+p, .38+p+ up through the various .357 loads.

 

[muffler dragon]

Much appreciated, Muck!

 

[Folanator]

What's in my house, a .45 WW2 1942 Remington Rand 1911. Very satisfying weapon that is fun to shoot and reasonably accurate. Besides, the noise it makes would send most people running if you shot it inside.

 

[Bleed S & G]

Bought my first firearm.. 12 guage at a gunshow - not an american made gun, but damn she's mean. Glock 17 is the next purchase. Need it before the 21st :mummy:

 

[AKAK]

Any upland bird hunters here? I am looking for a good, new or used, semiauto 16 gauge shotgun to buy my father for Christmas. He is lugging around a Browning o/u Citori 12 Ga. from the1970s right now.

Any recommendations?

I'll bite. I'm having trouble in my head coming up with who even makes one. I have 2 16's and neither is automatic. (not that I represent the industry as large obviously). Thing with a 16 auto, my guess would be anyway, that what you might run into, should you find one that's not say, a very vintage A-5 is a 12 guage frame with a smaller tube. The other problem is, and not to say other things aren't out there, they are, but, if you just pop into Walmart for bird loads, you generally get loads that are basically 20's in a larger caliber. So, there's a nice scenario where you get all the mass of a 12 with all the pheasant killing power of a 20.

So, the long story short is, if he needs an auto... get a 20 (If my thought is you want it easier to handle) Dunno what reasaonalby prices is, say a weatherby, I want to say SA-08 for about $500 not too long ago, then of course there is the REmington 1100, if reasonably priced is more than $ that, Beretta and Benelli will have very acceptable things (if he shoots a lot other than hunting, ie uses reloads, get a gas powerd one)

Now if 16 is a must have, I think you'd be surprised how much a double 16 is more manageble than a 12, especially if you get maybe a 26" tubes rather than a 28 or however his citori is set up... I have a 26" 12 o/u that would feel like a toy compared to a 28" Citori (not just because of the barrel length), and a 16 side-by-side that really feels like a toy compared to that.

 

[RugbyBuck]

Muck and others:

1) What do you think about the Taurus "Judge"-type models (fire a scaled down .410 slug as well as .357 rounds)? Worth a go or over-hyped?

2) Any recommendations on a laser/light combo for a Glock 19 (G4)?

 

[AKAK]

Muck and others:

1) What do you think about the Taurus "Judge"-type models (fire a scaled down .410 slug as well as .357 rounds)? Worth a go or over-hyped?

2) Any recommendations on a laser/light combo for a Glock 19 (G4)?

What's this first one? I'd think it would be .45 LC. (not .357)