Big Ten and other Conference Expansion

[Jake]

Here is what the Big Ten (and parenthetically Penn State, and ND and certain Service Academies) should, advisedly do.

A - wait till Paterno goes to meet his maker, before which you cannot perform step B.

B - Let Penn State go join the Big East. Without Paterno there really isn't anyone pleading to stay in the Big Ten in Happy Valley anyway. We are now back to the real Big Ten.

C - Enforce having a full round conference competition, Big Ten and Pac 10 are thus made again parallel entities.

D - Big East also picks up Army and Navy, starts talks with ND

E - ND joins Bigger East which splits into two leagues of 6 and institutes a championship game.

F - Penn State reclaims historic rivalry games with Pitt and West Virginia. Begins anew the ND rivalry.

G - ND keeps their commanders trophy games and their OOC games with TSUN, USC and A.N.Others to flesh out their schedule.

I like that scenario way better than any other. I don't think it'll ever happen, though.

 

[kolOhioState88]

why are we trying to get rid of penn state again?

 

[Buckeye86]

why are we trying to get rid of penn state again?

they didn't join the Big Ten until the 90's

going back to 10 is a more attractive option for many than going to 12 teams with a championship game

their fans are crybaby douchebags that are annoying as shit

 

[Colvinnl]

Can someone explain this undergraduate/graduate distinction? Is this purely an image thing or is there more to it? I can understand why you would want every school to have a good academic reputation. Notre Dame would not change that .

I go to OSU for graduate school (with relatives/friends at other Big 10 graduate schools) but I have never thought of the Big 10 as having this particular reputation for outstanding graduate education (although it is certainly there). When people think Big 10 they think about sports first and then maybe large Midwestern universities second...I just do not think any sort of reputation about graduate programs exists in a meaningful way.

So is it something other than reputation or image?

BTW, I would rather not expand because I do not like the CCG. I am just curious about this distinction.

 

[Jake]

they didn't join the Big Ten until the 90's

going back to 10 is a more attractive option for many than going to 12 teams with a championship game

their fans are crybaby douchebags that are annoying as shit

Three for three.

 

[Jake]

Can someone explain this undergraduate/graduate distinction? Is this purely an image thing or is there more to it? I can understand why you would want every school to have a good academic reputation. Notre Dame would not change that .

So is it something other than reputation or image?

Yes. Every Big Ten school is a member of the AAU, American Association of Universities. It is the only BCS conference that can make that claim. There are only 62 schools in the AAU, and they distinguish themselves as research institutions. The member list reads as a who's who of academic prestige. Notre Dame is not a member.

http://www.aau.edu/about/article.aspx?id=5476

Association of American Universities

 

[Colvinnl]

Yes. Every Big Ten school is a member of the AAU, American Association of Universities. It is the only BCS conference that can make that claim. There are only 62 schools in the AAU, and they distinguish themselves as research institutions. The member list reads as a who's who of academic prestige. Notre Dame is not a member.

Association of American Universities

Association of American Universities

Fair enough--but my point is this: Is only saying 11 out of our 12 schools are members of the AAU a big deal? How would it affect me as a graduate student? How would it affect Ohio State as a research/graduate institution?

 

[NateG]

Right, but that's not because they won their CCG, it's because everyone else ahead of them lost. There were no 1 loss teams left, and they were the best 2 loss team, with both losses in overtime. Had they not had a CCG, they still would have been 2nd.

BCS rank week 13-

1.Missouri 11-1
2.West Virginia 11-1
3.Ohio State 11-1
4.Georgia 10-2
5.Kansas 11-1
6.Va Tech 10-2
7.LSU 10-2

BCS week 14

1. OSU 11-1
2. LSU 11-2
3. Va Tech 11-2
4. Oklahoma 11-2
5. Georgia 10-2
6. Missouri 11-2
7. USC 10-2

LSU JUMPED Georgia, Va Tech, and Kansas who did not lose. If LSU would not have played they would not have gotten the push that they did. Georgia and Kansas especially got LEFT OUT of the discussion. Kansas ended 11-1. Okla beat a higher ranked team and got an equal jump to LSU. Va Tech and OKLA won and if LSU didn't play, one would have been in the game. The only reason LSU got their 3rd life was the CCG. Ohio State didn't play and got in but LSU needed that game. Just take out WVU and Mizz and it's OSU vs Georg, Va Tech, or Kansas. So you can disagree if you'd like but facts are facts. The CCG gave the voters one more chance to push in LSU.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

When people think Big 10 they think about sports first and then maybe large Midwestern universities second...I just do not think any sort of reputation about graduate programs exists in a meaningful way.

Big Ten schools grant 1/4 of all the doctorates in the United States.

Big Ten is the only athletic conference where all the schools are AAU members.

2006 rankings for funded research ($MM):

1. Johns Hopkins--1,500
2. Wisconsin--832
4. Michigan--800
11. Ohio State--652 (we're actually 9th now with 700+ but I couldn't find the complete ranking)
13. Minnesota--595
15. Penn State--568
23. Illinois--476
33. Northwestern--420
36. Purdue--373
40. MSU--358
42. Iowa--346
105 Indiana (no engineering/med school)--142
143. Notre Dame--79

​

Rankings
No other conference, other than the ivies, dominates the USN&WR top 25 lists for Ph.D programs ever year the way the Big Ten does.

Here is the last multi year study by the National Research Council on top Ph.D programs.

http://www.stat.tamu.edu/~jnewton/nrc_rankings/nrc1.html

The rankings are broken down in detail, but here's the composite ranking based on all 41 programs ranked.

1. Stanford
3. Michigan
5. Wisconsin
9. Illinois
13. Minnesota
17. Ohio State
20. Penn State
24. Northwestern
31. Iowa
35. Indiana
37. Michigan State
45. Purdue
xx. Notre Dame: not listed among top 60, but realistically wouldn't be listed among top 100.
​

 

[Colvinnl]

Big Ten schools grant 1/4 of all the doctorates in the United States.

Big Ten is the only athletic conference where all the schools are AAU members.

2006 rankings for funded research ():

1. Johns Hopkins--1,500
2. Wisconsin--832
4. Michigan--800
11. Ohio State--652 (we're actually 9th now with 700+ but I couldn't find the complete ranking)
13. Minnesota--595
15. Penn State--568
23. Illinois--476
33. Northwestern--420
36. Purdue--373
40. MSU--358
42. Iowa--346
105 Indiana (no engineering/med school)--142
143. Notre Dame--79

​

Rankings
No other conference, other than the ivies, dominates the USN&WR top 25 lists for Ph.D programs ever year the way the Big Ten does.

Here is the last multi year study by the National Research Council on top Ph.D programs.

http://www.stat.tamu.edu/~jnewton/nrc_rankings/nrc1.html

The rankings are broken down in detail, but here's the composite ranking based on all 41 programs ranked.

1. Stanford
3. Michigan
5. Wisconsin
9. Illinois
13. Minnesota
17. Ohio State
20. Penn State
24. Northwestern
31. Iowa
35. Indiana
37. Michigan State
45. Purdue
xx. Notre Dame: not listed among top 60, but realistically wouldn't be listed among top 100.
​

ORD---not disputing this at all, so do not get me wrong. My question is what does this mean? It may mean something but it seems to be purely image. Adding ND would not drastically affect this image (all the statistics you pointed out would remain the same...the other Big 10 schools would not fall in rankings, we would not lose research dollars, we would not grant fewer doctorates, etc.). It just isn't clear that this image is worth too much more than being able to say all our member schools belong to the AAU.

Put another way, would all of the other Big 10 graduate programs be somehow better off if we dropped Indiana who is obviously carrying the rear?

 

[Gatorubet]

Yes. Every Big Ten school is a member of the AAU, American Association of Universities. It is the only BCS conference that can make that claim. There are only 62 schools in the AAU, and they distinguish themselves as research institutions. The member list reads as a who's who of academic prestige. Notre Dame is not a member.

Association of American Universities

Association of American Universities

Yup. Just Florida and Vandy in the SEC.

 

[sandgk]

Fair enough--but my point is this: Is only saying 11 out of our 12 schools are members of the AAU a big deal? How would it affect me as a graduate student? How would it affect Ohio State as a research/graduate institution?

One other counter to this argument is that not all Big Ten universities have been members of the AAU while said institution has enjoyed being part of the Big Ten - (or it's earlier incarnations).

A great recent case in point is Michigan State - they have been members of the Big Ten since 1953, their admission to AAU was settled in 1964. Another would be Purdue, they gained entry to the AAU in 1958, their admission to the Big 10 took place in 1896.

Thus, I do not believe one can credibly argue that there is universal historic precedent for AAU membership as a prerequisite of Big 10 Conference entry, at least not without explaining such obvious contrary examples away.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

ORD---not disputing this at all, so do not get me wrong. My question is what does this mean? It may mean something but it seems to be purely image. Adding ND would not drastically affect this image (all the statistics you pointed out would remain the same...the other Big 10 schools would not fall in rankings, we would not lose research dollars, we would not grant fewer doctorates, etc.). It just isn't clear that this image is worth too much more than being able to say all our member schools belong to the AAU.

Put another way, would all of the other Big 10 graduate programs be somehow better off if we dropped Indiana who is obviously carrying the rear?

What I think it means is that the Big Ten, regardless of what the mass public's perception of it might be, is not just an athletic association. Through the CIC (which also includes Chicago who I didn't include in the rankings) is an active academic research consortium.

It means that we coordinate on several matters including faculty collaboration, securing research funding, ability for doctoral candidates to spend time on other CIC campuses working with their faculty and so on.

To admit a member that would not add to this activity, much less might actually drag it down, would be a huge mistake. Sure part of it is pride, but part of it is also a consideration of how much effort and valuable resources that could be better directed elsewhere would need to be spent getting the new member up to CIC standards.

In the case of Notre Dame--contingent upon a firm commitment from administration and faculty to make these changes--the big picture probably makes it a good decision. In the case of pretender schools like UC or West Virginia or Louisville, who don't bring Notre Dame's undergrad reputation, financial resources, football program or Olympic sports, it would essentially undercut and dilute the CIC's reputation. That also doesn't mean we should kick out IU or whomever happens to be at the bottom of any particular list. After all, being at the bottom of the Big Ten still puts you in the top quarter of almost any other athletic conference. It means that we shouldn't invite in a school that is completely beneath the CIC's standard.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

Thus, I do not believe one can credibly argue that there is universal historic precedent for AAU membership as a prerequisite of Big 10 Conference entry, at least not without explaining such obvious contrary examples away.

Purdue is a unique exception because the founding of the Big Ten predates the AAU by four years. You are right that MSU was invited prior to AAU membership. While it may not have always been paramount, that doesn't mean that it's not a valid criteria now.

As I've said before, we will make an exception--contingent upon certain guarantees--for Notre Dame but not for any other school.

 

[Colvinnl]

What I think it means is that the Big Ten, regardless of what the mass public's perception of it might be, is not just an athletic association. Through the CIC (which also includes Chicago who I didn't include in the rankings) is an active academic research consortium.

It means that we coordinate on several matters including faculty collaboration, securing research funding, ability for doctoral candidates to spend time on other CIC campuses working with their faculty and so on.

To admit a member that would not add to this activity, much less might actually drag it down, would be a huge mistake. Sure part of it is pride, but part of it is also a consideration of how much effort and valuable resources that could be better directed elsewhere would need to be spent getting the new member up to CIC standards.

In the case of Notre Dame--contingent upon a firm commitment from administration and faculty to make these changes--the big picture probably makes it a good decision. In the case of pretender schools like UC or West Virginia or Louisville, who don't bring Notre Dame's undergrad reputation, financial resources, football program or Olympic sports, it would essentially undercut and dilute the CIC's reputation. That also doesn't mean we should kick out IU or whomever happens to be at the bottom of any particular list. After all, being at the bottom of the Big Ten still puts you in the top quarter of almost any other athletic conference. It means that we shouldn't invite in a school that is completely beneath the CIC's standard.

Thanks that was particularly helpful--particularly the explanation about the CIC. If admission of ND would be a drag on institutional collaboration then I can understand why the other schools would hesitate.