Big Ten and other Conference Expansion

[ORD_Buckeye]

Question: Why would Texas want to go anywhere but where they are? Oklahoma and Nebraska are their only real rivals. They can fill their stadium 8 times a year playing TTech, Kansas, ISU and SouthwestNortheast Louisianna Mortuary Sciences and Normal College. They have two great rivalry games with Okie and TAM, which they have dominated recently and over the long haul. They're in a perfect location to be the middle and late game for TV. Their out of town commutes are short given where they're located. Where are they going to find it any better? I see zero incentive.

10 million reasons. That's how much extra they would make in year one by jumping from the B12's television contract to the Big Ten's. That doesn't even factor in how much the overall pie would grow from the BTN locking down the Texas market.

Throw in CIC research funding, the amount of which I've always said dwarfs any athletic dollar considerations, and I think there are millions of reasons for Texas to abandon the B12.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

It gives the Big 10 three premier programs.

In name only. Michigan is now a fucking joke, and State Penn varies wildly in their season records (14-0 in 1994, 3-9 and 4-7 in 2003 and 2004, back up to 11-1 in 2005). They have only three conference titles in the 17 years in the Big Ten. State Penn is too inconsistent to be considered "premier".

It's like arguing that the Big 12 has three "premier" programs in Texas, Oklahoma, and Nebraska...that may have been true over a decade ago but certainly not now with how Nebraska has been.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

Screw A&M, if the Texas legislature attempts to force the Big Ten to take them, I think it scuttles the whole deal. You only need 4 presidents/faculties to say nyet to admitting Texas' crazy cousin.

If we do go to 14, my hope is Texas, Missouri and Syracuse. That's a monster television footprint encompassing, NYC, Chicago, Philly, Pitt, Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati, Detroit, Indy, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Ottumwa, St. Louis, Kansas City, Houston, Dallas, San Antonio and Austin.

 

[IronBuckI]

Screw A&M, if the Texas legislature attempts to force the Big Ten to take them, I think it scuttles the whole deal. You only need 4 presidents/faculties to say nyet to admitting Texas' crazy cousin.

If we do go to 14, my hope is Texas, Missouri and Syracuse. That's a monster television footprint encompassing, NYC, Chicago, Philly, Pitt, Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati, Detroit, Indy, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Ottumwa, St. Louis, Kansas City, Houston, Dallas, San Antonio and Austin.

Screw you for making me lookup "Ottumwa".

 

[JCOSU86]

Screw you for making me lookup "Ottumwa".

Clearly not a fan of M*A*S*H

 

[IronBuckI]

Clearly not a fan of M*A*S*H

I used to be, but I guess Radar's hometown wasn't top of mind. I'll try to do better.

 

[BB73]

In name only. Michigan is now a fucking joke, and State Penn varies wildly in their season records (14-0 in 1994, 3-9 and 4-7 in 2003 and 2004, back up to 11-1 in 2005). They have only three conference titles in the 17 years in the Big Ten. State Penn is too inconsistent to be considered "premier".

It's like arguing that the Big 12 has three "premier" programs in Texas, Oklahoma, and Nebraska...that may have been true over a decade ago but certainly not now with how Nebraska has been.

Ahem. 12-0. I think you know who the first 14-0 team was.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

Ahem. 12-0. I think you know who the first 14-0 team was.

Fact checker. Pftftftfthhh...

 

[Mike80]

In name only. Michigan is now a fucking joke, and State Penn varies wildly in their season records (14-0 in 1994, 3-9 and 4-7 in 2003 and 2004, back up to 11-1 in 2005). They have only three conference titles in the 17 years in the Big Ten. State Penn is too inconsistent to be considered "premier".

It's like arguing that the Big 12 has three "premier" programs in Texas, Oklahoma, and Nebraska...that may have been true over a decade ago but certainly not now with how Nebraska has been.

By premiere he means the name, not the performance.

 

[cincibuck]

Okay, Milli, name for me the schools in the US with: A. a 100K stadium B. a fan base to fill item A enough to be in the top 5 for attendance every year for the last 20 C. history, media strength, athletic ability to qualify for a BCS championship game D. endowment fund over 1 billion E. INTERNATIONAL academic reputation.

Now tell me that Michigan and Penn State are has beens or never will bees.

 

[mross34]

If we do go to 14, my hope is Texas, Missouri and Syracuse. That's a monster television footprint encompassing, NYC...

ORD - I deeply respect the points you've made in this thread. You've really educated me on a lot of Big 10 matters that I was previously clueless about. But I have to disagree with you here.

NYC is the epicenter of Big East Basketball. If Syracuse were to leave the Big East, Syracuse's popularity there would take a huge hit, and really it's not that high now. No one in NYC cares about Syracuse football. People in NYC might not care about Rutgers either, but people in NJ are very excited about Rutgers football.

If it's televisions you want, NJ alone is nothing to sneeze at. Here's a map of population density of the area (the redder, the better):

Rutgers will put the Big 10 Network in far more homes than Syracuse will. Rutgers also has a better football program of late (due to Syracuse's location, I'm not sure they'll ever recover) and better graduate programs.

Rutgers has 38,000 undergrads, 13,000 grads, and 380,000 members of their alumni association alumni.
Syracuse has 13,000 undegrads, 6,000 grads, and 230,000 living alumni.

The only thing Syracuse has going for them is a much, much better b-ball program and a better undergraduate program.

Now I don't think either of these teams are particularly strong additions, but I think Rutgers is a significant cut above with regards to the all-around package the Big 10 is looking for.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

Those are all very good points, and I agree with you that, on most matters, Rutgers is preferable to Syracuse. The only point I really disagree on is NYC impact. Syracuse in no way "delivers" NYC, but I think they bring more of it than Rutgers for the primary reason that NYC is far more of a college basketball city than a college football city. That being said, New York college sports will always fall far behind pro sports in New York. I've never been one to believe that any potential expansion candidate is going to turn NYC into a Big Ten town in the manner that Chicago is.

Something would have to be done about Syracuse's stagnant football program. Perhaps the infusion of Big Ten money would be the catalyst for them to get out of that crappy dome and build a nice 60K outdoor stadium similar to what Minny's done.

 

[mross34]

Something would have to be done about Syracuse's stagnant football program. Perhaps the infusion of Big Ten money would be the catalyst for them to get out of that crappy dome and build a nice 60K outdoor stadium similar to what Minny's done.

I said the same thing to my girlfriend, who's a 'Cuse alum and she laughed her face off at me. Apparently it starts snowing there in early November. And by snowing I mean 2 feet at a time.

 

[jwinslow]

We might be able to lure in Texas with the academic & cultural upgrades they'd enjoy, but a 14 team conference could also scare them off. It works for bball because of tourney seeds for mediocre syracuse squads. Texas already seems a bit timid when it comes to OOC scheduling, I can't imagine them wanting a 14 team superconference, particularly if they have to schedule 1-2 big names to retain their rivalries from the south.

Those are all very good points, and I agree with you that, on most matters, Rutgers is preferable to Syracuse. The only point I really disagree on is NYC impact. Syracuse in no way "delivers" NYC, but I think they bring more of it than Rutgers for the primary reason that NYC is far more of a college basketball city than a college football city.

And if the rest of the big east is starring in Madison Square Garden at the end of the year, while Syracuse plays in Indy, I think they're visibility in NYC will nosedive.

 

[cincibuck]

ORD - I deeply respect the points you've made in this thread. You've really educated me on a lot of Big 10 matters that I was previously clueless about. But I have to disagree with you here.

NYC is the epicenter of Big East Basketball. If Syracuse were to leave the Big East, Syracuse's popularity there would take a huge hit, and really it's not that high now. No one in NYC cares about Syracuse football. People in NYC might not care about Rutgers either, but people in NJ are very excited about Rutgers football.

If it's televisions you want, NJ alone is nothing to sneeze at. Here's a map of population density of the area (the redder, the better):

Rutgers will put the Big 10 Network in far more homes than Syracuse will. Rutgers also has a better football program of late (due to Syracuse's location, I'm not sure they'll ever recover) and better graduate programs.

Rutgers has 38,000 undergrads, 13,000 grads, and 380,000 members of their alumni association alumni.
Syracuse has 13,000 undegrads, 6,000 grads, and 230,000 living alumni.

The only thing Syracuse has going for them is a much, much better b-ball program and a better undergraduate program.

Now I don't think either of these teams are particularly strong additions, but I think Rutgers is a significant cut above with regards to the all-around package the Big 10 is looking for.

And there's NDs trump card. No one can hold the NYC college football fan except the Irish. Geographically it makes no sense what so ever. It has nothing to do with having attended ND, or a father or great grandfather who went there -- most of them have never been west of the Alleghenies (many of them never west of the Hudson), let alone to northern Indiana.

And it doesn't stop at the end of the seven boroughs. It goes north and south, up to Hartford and Boston, down to Philly, Baltimore and DC. It's at the heart of the NBC contract -- a situation it took the Big 10 more than a decade to duplicate and though ND makes less money they are the only team with a guaranteed home game TV schedule on a NATIONAL - non-cable required network. No other college has that kind of power. Adding Syracuse or Rutgers to seek an in to the NYC/East Coast seems to me to work only if it also delivers ND. If it forces the Irish hand then it's the right thing to do -- personally I seem to recall a certain Michigan coach loudly claiming that the smartest thing the Big 10 could do was to refuse to play Notre Dame. "They need us more than we need them." If the East Coast market money is the goal, then Schembechler was wrong (I started to say dead wrong, but that would be wrong. RIP Bo)