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- Thread starter Sloopy45
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Sloopy45
Pimp Minister Sinister
Olier: "First of all, as far as I am concerned W-L is the ultimate stat defining a pitcher."
C'mon, you know better than that. Let's take (for example) Hershiser and Johnson's 2nd best Playoff performances to compare: we agree that '95 Hershisher and '95 Johnson were both their 2nd best performances in October, correct?
Let's put the numbers aside: Johnson faced 3 Elimination (as in lose, you go home) games within a week in 1995 (he won them all): the one-game playoff against the Angels, in which he dominated the Angels to get into the Playoffs, then down 2-0 to the Yankees in the DCS he dominated them in Game 3, then came into the game in relief in the 9th to win the game there, and in Game 3 of the LCS, he beat the Indians to put Seattle up 2-1. He got dinged up in the 8th Inning of Game 6 on short rest (facing a rested Offensive Juggernaut in the Indians), but was just plain out of gas by then.
Hershiser was also very impressive in '95, but he wasn't the guy driving the bus at that point in his career. His job was to hold the lead, and pitch decent (not necessarily dominate) until Belle, ManRam, Thome, etc. could slug their way back into the game. He also got lucky that postseason, because in his 1 DCS game, he was facing an overmatched Boston team that eventually got swept, and then faced a Mariner team that not only was beaten up and tired after a DCS Classic against the Yanks, but also couldn't reset their rotation after using all hands on deck in Game 5 the previous Series. RJ and Andy Benes were Seattle's top 2 pitchers, and they were both used in Game 5. Hershiser outdueled the fourth starter on Seattle's staff and had a great game against a beaten up line-up in Game 1 of the LCS. Again, that's not driving the bus, that's being along for the ride.
He doesn't have any other playoff performances that're close to those two. Johnson had a great postseason during his one year with the 'Stros, even though he got outdueled by a hot Kevin Brown and (I think) lost both games. He had something like a 1.93 ERA that Series.
"Randy is a great pitcher...but to have him at #4 and have Orel Hersheiser off of the top 10 presents some MAJOR inconsistencies."
I only had 7, Oil, not 10. But even if it was 10, I'd have a hard time putting Hershiser on that list. Like I said, the '88 Playoff performance was either the best or tied for the best single performance I've ever seen. I may have seen ones as good, but no way are they better than that.
I'd put Hershiser in more of the category of, "Great Single Season Pitcher Playoff Performances," a la Mike Scott or Jose Rijo, than I would the "Best Big Gamers of this Era" category.
I would easily take any pitcher on my list plus Di's Jack Morris and Dave Stewart over Orel if '88 is taken out of the equation.
Di: "sloops just having fun with you....i have to admit that i love these baseball threads you have being starting.....good stuff..."
Thanks, my man. And don't worry about giving me a hard time, we got way back, so its all good. Surprisingly, I get better (however limited) baseball conversation on BP than I get on the Yankees Insiders board. I haven't posted on BN in a year, but I do try to get some good threads going on the Yanks (to no avail).
C'mon, you know better than that. Let's take (for example) Hershiser and Johnson's 2nd best Playoff performances to compare: we agree that '95 Hershisher and '95 Johnson were both their 2nd best performances in October, correct?
Let's put the numbers aside: Johnson faced 3 Elimination (as in lose, you go home) games within a week in 1995 (he won them all): the one-game playoff against the Angels, in which he dominated the Angels to get into the Playoffs, then down 2-0 to the Yankees in the DCS he dominated them in Game 3, then came into the game in relief in the 9th to win the game there, and in Game 3 of the LCS, he beat the Indians to put Seattle up 2-1. He got dinged up in the 8th Inning of Game 6 on short rest (facing a rested Offensive Juggernaut in the Indians), but was just plain out of gas by then.
Hershiser was also very impressive in '95, but he wasn't the guy driving the bus at that point in his career. His job was to hold the lead, and pitch decent (not necessarily dominate) until Belle, ManRam, Thome, etc. could slug their way back into the game. He also got lucky that postseason, because in his 1 DCS game, he was facing an overmatched Boston team that eventually got swept, and then faced a Mariner team that not only was beaten up and tired after a DCS Classic against the Yanks, but also couldn't reset their rotation after using all hands on deck in Game 5 the previous Series. RJ and Andy Benes were Seattle's top 2 pitchers, and they were both used in Game 5. Hershiser outdueled the fourth starter on Seattle's staff and had a great game against a beaten up line-up in Game 1 of the LCS. Again, that's not driving the bus, that's being along for the ride.
He doesn't have any other playoff performances that're close to those two. Johnson had a great postseason during his one year with the 'Stros, even though he got outdueled by a hot Kevin Brown and (I think) lost both games. He had something like a 1.93 ERA that Series.
"Randy is a great pitcher...but to have him at #4 and have Orel Hersheiser off of the top 10 presents some MAJOR inconsistencies."
I only had 7, Oil, not 10. But even if it was 10, I'd have a hard time putting Hershiser on that list. Like I said, the '88 Playoff performance was either the best or tied for the best single performance I've ever seen. I may have seen ones as good, but no way are they better than that.
I'd put Hershiser in more of the category of, "Great Single Season Pitcher Playoff Performances," a la Mike Scott or Jose Rijo, than I would the "Best Big Gamers of this Era" category.
I would easily take any pitcher on my list plus Di's Jack Morris and Dave Stewart over Orel if '88 is taken out of the equation.
Di: "sloops just having fun with you....i have to admit that i love these baseball threads you have being starting.....good stuff..."
Thanks, my man. And don't worry about giving me a hard time, we got way back, so its all good. Surprisingly, I get better (however limited) baseball conversation on BP than I get on the Yankees Insiders board. I haven't posted on BN in a year, but I do try to get some good threads going on the Yanks (to no avail).
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OilerBuck
Sweet Crude
So would ESPN.
Full Story
10. Tug McGraw, 1980
We remember the Tugger celebrating on the mound after nailing down the Phillies' World Series championship, but it was a little more complicated than that. With ever-optimistic Phillie fans convinced their club was blowing it yet again, McGraw entered Game 5 with his club down 3-2 in the seventh, and pitched three huge shutout innings as Philly came back to score two in the ninth to win and take a 3-2 series lead. (Of course, McGraw walked the bases full in the bottom half to make things ridiculously tense.) In Game 6, McGraw finished the game with two more shutout innings, once again striking out the final batter with the bases loaded.
9. Vida Blue, 1972
Not many remember that Blue, one year removed from winning the Cy Young and MVP awards, had pitched poorly in '72 and was relegated to bullpen work in the ALCS against Detroit. But the lefthander still shined -- particularly in the decisive Game 5. He relieved Blue Moon Odom to start the sixth in a 2-1 game, and pitched four scoreless innings that often had to be stopped as Tiger fans littered the field with smoke bombs, fire*******s and rolls of toilet paper. Blue dominated through it all to put Oakland into its first ever World Series. (Blue came through in the ALCS two years later as well, when starting Game 3 he shut out Baltimore 1-0 to put the A's up 2-1 in the series.)
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8. Orel Hershiser, 1988
To appreciate all that Hershiser did in Game 7 of the 1988 NLCS against the heavily-favored Mets, you must remember what came before it. The Dodgers' young ace had ended the regular season with 59 straight scoreless innings. He pitched well in Games 1 and 3 but got no decisions. He came back in Game 4 to record the final out of a tense, 5-4, 12-inning win. And then three days later, with everyone wondering how many bullets he'd have left for the all-or-nothing Game 7, all he did was pitch a five-hit shutout to send the Mets packing.
7. Mariano Rivera, 2003
Watching Joe Nathan fall apart last week only makes this Rivera performance last year more notable. In Game 7 of the ALCS against Boston, Rivera entered the suddenly 5-5 game in the ninth. He pitched one, two and then three scoreless innings -- a huge task for any modern closer, and against one of the best offensive teams of all time -- to keep the game tied and put New York into the bottom of the 11th with a chance to win. Up came Aaron Boone, and the Yankees were in the World Series.
6. Steve Blass, 1971
Yes, we remember Blass for his sudden and career-ending wildness. But before that the Pirate righthander was very successful, never more so than in Game 7 of the 1971 World Series against Baltimore. Five days after throwing a three-hitter in Game 3 to save Pittsburgh from trailing 3-0 in games, Blass came back to throw a four-hitter in Game 7, a ridiculously tight, 2-1 affair. He faced three strong hitters in the bottom of the ninth -- Boog Powell, Frank Robinson and Merv Rettenmund -- and retired them 1-2-3 for the championship.
5. Randy Johnson, 2001
He pitched a three-hit shutout in Game 2. He threw seven strong innings in a vital Game 6 victory. But Randy Johnson wasn't done dominating the 2001 World Series. One day after his Game 6 win, the Diamondbacks needed him yet again, this time in relief. With the Yankees holding a 2-1 lead with a runner on first and two out, Johnson ambled in to get the third out and maintain Arizona's one-run deficit. He then retired the side in the ninth, and became the winning pitcher -- for the third time in the Series -- when the Diamondbacks felled Mariano Rivera. (This wasn't the first time Johnson had come through in the clutch: In the 1995 Mariners-Angels AL West playoff game, Johnson pitched a three-hitter, retiring the first 17 batters, to deliver Seattle to the playoffs.)
4. Josh Beckett, 2003
You're a 23-year-old with just 48 career major league starts. You pitched well but lost Game 3 of the World Series. And your manager wants you to pitch Game 6 on three days' rest, something few even veteran pitchers have done well in the playoffs. (Oh, in Yankee Stadium, too.) So, of course, all you do is go out and pitch a five-hit shutout, winning the World Series shutting up not just the world but about 10 million New Yorkers. Sounds pretty clutch to us.
3. Sparky Lyle, 1977
On the brink of the losing the ALCS to the Royals in 1977, Sparky Lyle resuscitated the Yankees with two brilliant relief performances. The soon-to-be Cy Young Award winner entered Game 4 in the shockingly early juncture of the fourth inning -- and all he did was pitch the rest of the way, 5 2/3 innings of two-hit shutout ball, as the Yankees held on to win 6-4. The next night, in the winner-take-all Game 5, Kansas City held a 3-2 lead in the eighth and was threatening with runners on first and second when Lyle came in and squelched that rally. The Yankees scored three times in the top of the ninth to take the lead, which Lyle preserved with a scoreless ninth, giving the Yankees their first pennant in 13 years.
2. Pedro Martinez, 1999
No one who watched this game will ever forget it. Martinez, baseball's most dominant pitcher during the season, had been forced out of Game 1 of the Boston-Cleveland ALDS after four innings because of a pulled muscle behind his shoulder blade. He was too injured to start five days later in the decisive Game 5. But after Bret Saberhagen and Derek Lowe kept blowing leads to put Boston down 8-7 after three innings, Pedro had seen enough. He came in and stifled the powerful Indians without a hit for the final six innings -- fighting through the pain and without his best fastball -- to lead Boston to an incredible 12-8, series-winning victory.
1. Jack Morris, 1991
We've seen pitchers throw shutouts in Game 7's of the World Series, such as Lew Burdette and Ralph Terry. We've seen a few go the distance in extra-inning October classics. (Babe Ruth pitched 14 innings in one 1916 classic.) But Jack Morris did both in 1991's Game 7 to author the most clutch pitching performance of all time. His Twins couldn't muster any offense against Atlanta starter John Smoltz, but Morris kept throwing zeroes of his own. He did the same through the eighth, ninth and even the 10th innings, becoming the first Game 7 starter to go that far -- let alone while giving up no runs -- since Christy Mathewson in 1912 (which, I know, was technically Game 8 because of one tie). The Twins pushed across a run in the bottom of the 10th to make Morris the weariest of winners. Astonished Minnesota manager Tom Kelly was asked afterward what he would have required to take Morris out of this game. "Probably a shotgun," he said.
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OilerBuck
Sweet Crude
That was an absolute gem of a pitching performance for the condition he was in. I don't think he'll ever make this list because of his first game of the series and because his performance last night wasn't dominant...but it was one of the gutsiest performances I've ever witnessed on the diamond. That guy is all about team!AKAKBUCK said:
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what game did you watch? 4 hits, 1 ER on a pitch to bernie williams that pretty much said "youre bernie williams....big deal", 7 innings on a bloody foot that are vital to resting their bull pen. now THATS how you shut up 55,000 idiot yankee fans.
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Just tossing a few more names out there...
Juan Guzman - 5-1, 2.44 ERA
Doug Drabek - 2-5, 2.05 ERA - hey - it's not his fault his team didn't hit in the postseason.
Jose Rijo - only one post season, but: 3-0, 2.28, 29K
Jimmy Key - 5-3, 3.15
John Rocker - 2-0, 0.00, 26K in 20 2/3 IP
Juan Guzman - 5-1, 2.44 ERA
Doug Drabek - 2-5, 2.05 ERA - hey - it's not his fault his team didn't hit in the postseason.
Jose Rijo - only one post season, but: 3-0, 2.28, 29K
Jimmy Key - 5-3, 3.15
John Rocker - 2-0, 0.00, 26K in 20 2/3 IP
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For 1 year, Mickey Lolich in the '68 Series.
He beat Bob Gibson in Game 7, after Gibby had given up 1 run in 2 complete games. This was the year Gibson had the 1.12 ERA for the regular season and Denny McLain won 31 and had a 1.96 ERA for the Tigers.
Gibson and Lolich had identical 1.67 ERA's for the Series. But Lolich was 3-0 and the MVP.
Lolich also pitched 2 games in the ALCS against the A's in 1972. Gave up 3 runs in 19 innings, but was 0-1.
Postseason totals, 3-1 with a 1.57 ERA over 46 innings.
He beat Bob Gibson in Game 7, after Gibby had given up 1 run in 2 complete games. This was the year Gibson had the 1.12 ERA for the regular season and Denny McLain won 31 and had a 1.96 ERA for the Tigers.
Gibson and Lolich had identical 1.67 ERA's for the Series. But Lolich was 3-0 and the MVP.
Lolich also pitched 2 games in the ALCS against the A's in 1972. Gave up 3 runs in 19 innings, but was 0-1.
Postseason totals, 3-1 with a 1.57 ERA over 46 innings.
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ScriptOhio
Everybody is somebody else's weirdo.
Something could be accomplished tonight in MLB that may never happen again (or at least not again for many years):
On Wednesday in Washington, Randy Johnson will get his first crack at earning career win No. 300. Only 23 men have accomplished the feat. The last man to win No. 300 while with the Giants was Christy Mathewson in 1912 for the New York Giants. Gaylord Perry, who spent 10 years with San Francisco, won No. 300 with Seattle, Johnson?s longtime former club.
Many believe that Johnson will be the last man to accomplish the feat, though similar things were said before others, such as Glavine, earned their 300th. Johnson would be just the sixth left-hander in the bunch.
Giants Team Report - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
Johnson Quietly Nears a Defining Moment
WASHINGTON ? Anticipation shot through the visiting clubhouse Tuesday, briefly interrupting the video games and the card games that occupied the San Francisco Giants.
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To win his 300th on Wednesday would be fitting, considering that Johnson is pitching for the Giants, a team near where he grew up in Northern California, and against the Nationals, the franchise that drafted him in 1985 when it was the Montreal Expos.
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Still, reaching 300 has become such a rare feat, and it would place Johnson in exclusive company. Only four active pitchers ? Andy Pettitte, Pedro Martinez, Jamie Moyer and John Smoltz ? have won more than 200 games, and none of them are likely to reach 300.
Entire article: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/03/sports/baseball/03johnson.html?hpw
On Wednesday in Washington, Randy Johnson will get his first crack at earning career win No. 300. Only 23 men have accomplished the feat. The last man to win No. 300 while with the Giants was Christy Mathewson in 1912 for the New York Giants. Gaylord Perry, who spent 10 years with San Francisco, won No. 300 with Seattle, Johnson?s longtime former club.
Many believe that Johnson will be the last man to accomplish the feat, though similar things were said before others, such as Glavine, earned their 300th. Johnson would be just the sixth left-hander in the bunch.
Giants Team Report - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
Johnson Quietly Nears a Defining Moment
WASHINGTON ? Anticipation shot through the visiting clubhouse Tuesday, briefly interrupting the video games and the card games that occupied the San Francisco Giants.
.
.
.
continued
.
.
.
To win his 300th on Wednesday would be fitting, considering that Johnson is pitching for the Giants, a team near where he grew up in Northern California, and against the Nationals, the franchise that drafted him in 1985 when it was the Montreal Expos.
.
.
.
continued
.
.
.
Still, reaching 300 has become such a rare feat, and it would place Johnson in exclusive company. Only four active pitchers ? Andy Pettitte, Pedro Martinez, Jamie Moyer and John Smoltz ? have won more than 200 games, and none of them are likely to reach 300.
Entire article: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/03/sports/baseball/03johnson.html?hpw
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