no, steroids might not help you hit a curve ball....but if they dont give you an unfair advantage then why do so many people use them?Misanthrope said:
(and 50% was an arbitrary number)
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(and 50% was an arbitrary number)
HabaneroBuck
Non-Nike Design
Barry Bonds should be a career 450-500 HR guy. He's going to have 800. I would hope you care a little bit. Contrary to popular opinion, your health does not necessarily go to s--- when you use steroids. It is unpredictable in its effects on individual users, with varying degrees of negative side effects. Anything hormonal is a big ?Misanthrope said:
Like Canseco said, steroids make a border-line player a big leaguer, a solid player into a star, and a superstar into a legend. Barry Bonds was NOT on pace to being a legend until 1999 or 2000, well after the bulk of his career, pun intended.
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Misanthrope
Banned
Obviously, steroids can increase the benefits of strength training if used as part of a fitness program, but the side effects can be devastating. Why do some athletes use them? To gain an edge, to make millions of dollars, to set records, all the while risking their health.
I honestly don't give a damn if Bonds, Sosa or Giambi use steroids, although I'm pretty sure they all did (only Giambi has admitted it thus far). Lots of athletes take supplements, but we only get upset about some of them - why? It doesn't take away from their talent, perseverence and effort in achieving their accomplishments. It's a risk they've chosen to take with their own lives.
People talk about asterisks in the record book because of steroids. Okay, let's start with Steelers' Super Bowls in the 70s, as we now know several of their players (mostly linemen) were using steroids. Give 'em an asterisk. The Raiders won one with Alzado, an admitted 'roid user. Give 'em one, too.
Then let's go back to the Olympic records and put a "*" next to those east German "women" with more male hormones in them than I have, and don't forget the Soviets.
Hell, let's rewrite all of history because of our indignation for a substance that STILL isn't banned in MLB - nothing is banned until you actually start drug testing, no matter what they say about the subject. Let's put an astersk next to Bonds' records, even though he was never tested so we have no evidence to convict him. Besides, he's an arrogant bastard that few people like, anyway.
Again, if I had to guess I'd say YES, he's used steroids...and I simply don't care.
I honestly don't give a damn if Bonds, Sosa or Giambi use steroids, although I'm pretty sure they all did (only Giambi has admitted it thus far). Lots of athletes take supplements, but we only get upset about some of them - why? It doesn't take away from their talent, perseverence and effort in achieving their accomplishments. It's a risk they've chosen to take with their own lives.
People talk about asterisks in the record book because of steroids. Okay, let's start with Steelers' Super Bowls in the 70s, as we now know several of their players (mostly linemen) were using steroids. Give 'em an asterisk. The Raiders won one with Alzado, an admitted 'roid user. Give 'em one, too.
Then let's go back to the Olympic records and put a "*" next to those east German "women" with more male hormones in them than I have, and don't forget the Soviets.
Hell, let's rewrite all of history because of our indignation for a substance that STILL isn't banned in MLB - nothing is banned until you actually start drug testing, no matter what they say about the subject. Let's put an astersk next to Bonds' records, even though he was never tested so we have no evidence to convict him. Besides, he's an arrogant bastard that few people like, anyway.
Again, if I had to guess I'd say YES, he's used steroids...and I simply don't care.
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Actually Bonds is being scrutinized because he is not friendly with the media. If Mark McGwire was in Bonds shoes right now there is no way he would have been scrutinized as much as Bonds is right now. And I actually think McGwire used more steroids than Bonds did.BuckeyeBlitz04 said:
Plus you have to realize that Bonds grew up with fathers that were repressed because they were black. His view is skewed and because of that will revert to because he is black. His background and his experience in baseball tells him this. While I don't think it is as much as he thinks it is, you are blind if you don't see that some people are biased against Bonds because he is black (Not necessarily you, but there is a certain population that does think that way)
About the Bonds Press Conference in the whole. It was hilarious to listen to, the transcript is even funnier and the sad thing is the media will spin this for what it was not and use it to their advantage to crucify Bonds even more.
There was some blunt and candid remarks that should be taken for what it is worth. Of course he could not talk about BALCO since it is still in the courts but he at least talked about steriods and gave people his point of view compared to Giambi saying "I'm sorry... and oh, I can't talk about anything you want answers to". I feel alot of his remarks were quite on the mark while some were a little off. But some of the things he said were hilarious... c'mon the Sanford & Son remarks were so dead on it was freaking hilarious. Plus he brought up Sanford & Son... truly classic and then he rips on Canseco saying where is his records and basically saying if steriods are suppose to help you why isn't he in the league anymore? I have to put it up their with the best Press Conferences I have ever seen/read about.
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Misanthrope
Banned
I don't know who used "more" steroids but I totally agree that Bonds is getting scrutinized far more than McGwire ever was/will be, due to his personality and indifference to whether he is liked, or not.Piney said:
Agreed, but only the "blunt and candid remarks" will get played to death on ESPN. I hope he hits 60 HRs this year and the media (and some fans) can bitch all season.
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I'll say it again...Bonds is a fraud. And not because he's black, or doesn't like the media, or anything else. Don't care about steroids? Fine...I think his "record" will be a crock, but opinions vary. He's a fraud because he's so anally overprotective of his body that he brings a nutritionist to post-game meals, instead of partaking in the team spread, because "his body is a temple"...and then actually says he uses cream and supplements that some guy gives him but he "didn't know what was in them"? So he's all of a sudden going to start rubbing "mystery oil" on himself when he won't even eat cold cuts? Right.
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So how does that make him a fraud because he is overly protective of his body? And I got a question for you, the trainer that gave him this stuff has been his personal trainer for years. He has been giving you legal supplements for years and then tells you about this cream that should help his now older body. So you tell me Bonds is suppose to investigate this new cream by himself. Or does he trust the guy HE PAYS to make that decision. It is not like he has studied to find out what food to eat. The Nutrionist HE PAYS tells him to do this.Bucklion said:
Plus everyone has to realize steriods were not ILLEGAL in baseball!!!! Remember, it is not cheating if you don't get caught and if you aren't cheating you ain't trying. And it ain't cheating if it ain't illegal. Ethical? ok, that can be a different story but going back to the early 1900s athletes have looked at getting the edge. ie corking bats, illegal substances on pitches, stealing signs and special concoctions dating back to the early days of baseball.
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BuckeyeBlitz04
Senior
Steroids Side Effects
This is most common from using steroids. It is a “puffiness” or swelling in the neck and facial areas. It is rather notable mainly if you know the person is on steroids. For example, I know someone that took steroids but I did not know it at the time. After I found out, if I looked his face I would wonder how I couldn’t notice he was on roids before. It can be mild swelling or very serious, obvious swelling.
Acne:
Everyone knows about acne, and is one of the side effects I worry about the most for me. It is also a very common side effect, it can give acne to someone who has never had acne, and it can make acne worse for others. It can also appear in new places for a person, such as, the back and neck. There have been several users that have not received acne on the other hand.
Gynecomastia:
It may not sound familiar but most people have heard about it. It is the formation of breasts, or abnormally large glands. The first signs are lumps under the nipples, then will gradually grow to fatty tissue and increase in size.
Aggression:
Aggression, also know as “roid rages”. Surprisingly, several athletes feel this is a positive effect. They often find they lift more, and are more intense during workouts. On the negative side, users find themselves fighting with family, friends, and co-workers with an uptight behaviour.
Hypertension:
High blood pressure is also a chance when taking steroids. Most athletes would not know if they had high blood pressure so it is suggested to get tests regularly. High blood pressure can lead to many more serious diseases.
Cardiovascular Disease:
Studies have shown that steroid use is a risk factor for heart disease. This is because steroids affect the cholesterol levels. Over a period of time the cholesterol builds up and clogs the arteries.
Palpitations:
Heart palpitations have been reported by a number of athletes on steroids. These may indicate an excited or elevated level of the central nervous system.
Impotence:
Impotence occurs when a user goes on and off steroids. When steroids are first used sexual interest increases because of the heightened frequency and duration of the erections. But eventually the opposite happens and no erections can be produced.
Jaundice:
A serious liver disease which is found by an enlarged painful liver, yellowing of the eyes and skin, and flu like symptoms. This happens when athletes use high dosages of steroids.
Don't do drugs, they're bad! Black or white: drugs kill! It's not a race issue like some like to believe!
Below are only some of the side effects associated with steroid use. Some steroids lead to more side effects than others. In most cases, the more effective the steorid, the more negative effects the user will see.
Water Retention:
This is most common from using steroids. It is a “puffiness” or swelling in the neck and facial areas. It is rather notable mainly if you know the person is on steroids. For example, I know someone that took steroids but I did not know it at the time. After I found out, if I looked his face I would wonder how I couldn’t notice he was on roids before. It can be mild swelling or very serious, obvious swelling.
Acne:
Everyone knows about acne, and is one of the side effects I worry about the most for me. It is also a very common side effect, it can give acne to someone who has never had acne, and it can make acne worse for others. It can also appear in new places for a person, such as, the back and neck. There have been several users that have not received acne on the other hand.
Gynecomastia:
It may not sound familiar but most people have heard about it. It is the formation of breasts, or abnormally large glands. The first signs are lumps under the nipples, then will gradually grow to fatty tissue and increase in size.
Aggression:
Aggression, also know as “roid rages”. Surprisingly, several athletes feel this is a positive effect. They often find they lift more, and are more intense during workouts. On the negative side, users find themselves fighting with family, friends, and co-workers with an uptight behaviour.
Hypertension:
High blood pressure is also a chance when taking steroids. Most athletes would not know if they had high blood pressure so it is suggested to get tests regularly. High blood pressure can lead to many more serious diseases.
Cardiovascular Disease:
Studies have shown that steroid use is a risk factor for heart disease. This is because steroids affect the cholesterol levels. Over a period of time the cholesterol builds up and clogs the arteries.
Palpitations:
Heart palpitations have been reported by a number of athletes on steroids. These may indicate an excited or elevated level of the central nervous system.
Impotence:
Impotence occurs when a user goes on and off steroids. When steroids are first used sexual interest increases because of the heightened frequency and duration of the erections. But eventually the opposite happens and no erections can be produced.
Jaundice:
A serious liver disease which is found by an enlarged painful liver, yellowing of the eyes and skin, and flu like symptoms. This happens when athletes use high dosages of steroids.
Don't do drugs, they're bad! Black or white: drugs kill! It's not a race issue like some like to believe!
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OSUBasketballJunkie
Never Forget 31-0
I totally agree that he is getting scrutinized for more than McGuire, but the reason is very simple and there are several factors:
1. Barry Bonds, in front of a grand jury, admitted to "unknowingly" taking steriods (cream).
2. Barry Bonds arrogance in general and his relationship with the media.\
3. Barry Bonds assault on the homerun record.
Now, I would like to say that I am not a Bonds fan. I do not think much of the man or his opinions. With that said, let me say that it is my opinion that Barry Bonds did knowingly take steriods and will never take responsibility for his actions, regardless of how much it damages baseball or his legacy, it is not in his character.
I do not believe he is being scrutinized is because of his race. It is about his integrity and his inability to understand how big of an issue of steriods in baseball is to the average fan. He has consitently shrugged off accusations and questions regarding his performance and appearance. He states its because of hard work only, I do not believe this. He is a professional athlete, in general athletes of his calibur know exactly what they put in their body, I find it humerous that he "unknowingly" took "the cream".
The critical issue involving Bonds is his onslaught of the record books of baseball and any fan will tell you that baseball is all about stats and records, with his ability being questioned wether it was natural or not, raises alot of questions about the records he owns and the homerun record which he is on pace to break. Deep down, the average fan wants to believe the players who own these records are legends and they did it on their own natural ability. Unfortunately, in this day and age a athlete is under the microscope and is scrutinized more than ever.
Regardless, the fact remains he admitted to taking steriods "unknowingly" but the question is for how long and how many times did this take place and should this "taint" his records or his legacy. In my opinion, the answer is yes.
I believe some of the other players mentioned recently may have been on steriods (McGuire....Sosa) but until they are in front of a grand jury or their is a confession or proof, they will not suffer under the same scrutiny that Bonds finds himself in. If he thinks his defensive attitude and non chalant answers to these serious questions will make the steriod issue go away, he is mistaken. He has become the poster boy for this issue and it will be a long road before this issue is done.
Its to bad he decided to "cheat", not only himself, but the game of baseball and the fans.......bottom line is if he doesnt want to be scrutinized, just step up and come clean...then maybe the baseball fan would respect him....but thats to hard..right Barry?
He is a fraud because he knows exactly what he puts in his body and the fact he pays someone to train him does not give him a free pass for responsibility, just my opinion.
They may not have been illegal in baseball, but in the U.S. they are. If you believe he didnt know what he was taking then take off your blinders.
Your right, its not cheating if know one knows. News flash.....he did get caught...remember BALCO.
He is a fraud because he is not taking responsibility for his actions.
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I would bet that killing an umpire for a call you don't like is not officially in MLB's rule book under, "don't do this" either. I think we all can agree that it is ILLEGAL. Of course MLB didn't want to address the steriods issue... it puts asses in the seats. The typical fan doesn't want to see a 1-0 pitchers duel. They want 8 HR's in a game, final score 14-12. Don't you think it is odd that the Maris record was never approached then all of a sudden three guys break it. Not only break it, crush it. I'll bet no one hits 50 this year. Ivan Rodriguez just strolled into Tigers camp 20 lbs. lighter.... hmmmm.Piney said:
Also isn't Palmiero the only guy that is considering sueing Canseco for his allegations. Everyone else is just sitting back like... "Who cares what he says, he was the only guy in the league doing it. He wrote that book because he needs the money." He must be pretty stupid to write a book, while on the brink of financial ruin, filled with a bunch of lies about several players taking illegal substances knowing that he will be sued into bankruptcy.
And no, taking steriods doesn't help you hit a curveball. But it does take a flyball that would have been caught on the warning track and turn it into a upper deck homerun. It also turns a 75 MPH fastball into a 90 MPH fastball. Nolan Ryan didn't need steriods and Babe Ruth nor Hank Aaron did either. Whether you care or not, or call it cheating or not... it is not right that a record like the ALL -TIME home run record will be broken by someone that would have never done it without "unknowingly taking a substance that he thought was icy hot or whatever and didn't notice that he was getting in the best shape of his life when he should have been in the twilight of his career."
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Damn I love good debate...bucknuts44820 said:
First off I think to him, a man of color with 2 prominent relatives in baseball that did get repressed due to race and hate mail only is bringing up race because that is how he feels. Is it warranted? Probable not, but he did grow up in a culture that taught him when Ruth was past last time there were tons of hate mail sent to him. We don't know if he is getting that hate mail and do not wish to ask.
Now about "steriods" remember... this is human growth hormone. This was a cream, an ointment. Sorry, but I rub Icy Hot on my arms and knees all the time. Ointments can't be steriods can they? Until this all came up I never thought it was. The trainer in high school and college had an unmarked magic balm that eased my sore joints. I never knew what it was, only that it stopped my rotor cuff from hurting and it hid the fact that I needed knee surgery. Isn't it just like Football players injecting pain medication by their trainers?
All I asked was "Is it legal?" and I was told it was prescription strength and legal for college. If this therapist/trainer has an MD this is a prescription. Meaning if he gave out steriods it could be legal. Steriods is legal in the US if prescribed!!!
And yep, BALCO means he got caught. But we don't know everything yet do we? What if BALCO is found innocent and nothing illegal happened? And unfortunately he probable LEGALLY cannot take responsibilty yet in the court of public opinion because if he says anything it can be against a court order or anything like that.
What I am interested in is after BALCO is over and they no longer can hide behind "pending legal action". That is when we might find out.
Oh, about when this occured? Everyone's guess is 1999 when he missed part of the season with a bad knee. And needed "help" becoming confident with it again. That part too was in the grand jury testimony.
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That's bull Piney...HE sets his regimens...HE sets his diets...and HE sets his workouts. The only reason you pay someone that much is to ADVISE you, based on your goals and what you want to do...if your trainer says "rub this on your arms 3x a day and you'll put on 30 pounds of muscle"...then yes, I certainly expect someone who is that much of a freak about his body is going to say first thing "What's in it?"Piney said:
And of coure they aren't illegal in baseball...it's just a federal crime. So, if Pete Rose isn't eligible for the HOF...why should Barry Bonds be if he broke a federal law to artificially improve his performance? The sad thing is players like Fred McGriff have no chance to make the HOF, when he got to (almost) 500 HRs the old fashioned way...meanwhile geeked up 4-hitters will get in automatically, despite cheating to hit 200 extra.
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Misanthrope
Banned
The problem is, there's no proof of steroids because there has never been testing. Do I think some guys, including Bonds, knowlingly used them? Yep, but I can't prove it.gost8 said:
Let's not forget the players' union, who doesn't want to address it, either. MLB cannot unilaterally implement drug testing - it has to be negotiated with the union. Is it any wonder the players haven't agreed to such testing? HRs put money in their paychecks, too.
Not at all - I think steroid use had something to do with it.
That said, Babe Ruth's idea of a training regimen was getting drunk, sucking down hot dogs and chasing loose women - who knows how many HRs he could've hit had he worked out year round? 800, perhaps?
Steroids aren't the only difference - full-time millionaire athletes tend to do more strength training than old timers, most of whom were busy working second jobs to support their family.
You answered your own question - what's the point of a millionaire suing a guy who is broke? At best, you draw extra scrutiny and drag out the allegations and, ultimately, you get nothing out of him. There's no point in suing him - they can't prove he lied any more than he can prove he told the truth, because there's no hard evidence.
To suggest their decision not to sue, somehow, proves they're all guilty is weak, at best.
Actually, Nolan Ryan was one of the Texas Rangers Canseco accused of steroid use, so if Ryan doesn't sue Jose, does it mean he's admitting guilt, too? I'll bet my house Ryan didn't use them, but Jose says he did, which is another reason to take Jose's ramblings with a grain of salt.
Like it or not, you can't prove what he did, or did not, take. Similarly, you can't prove Bonds, or anyone else, "would have never done it without" steroids. That's just an unsubstantiated opinion based on assumptions and circumstantial evidence. I don't totally disagree with that opinion, by the way, but I'm not in favor of asterisks and convictions without hard proof. Especially when I DO know the person had to work their ass off, and have considerable talent, to accomplish such feats with or without steroids.
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He admitted to using them. If you believe he didn't know what they were... I don't even know what to say about that. I can't imagine someone hearing the statement, I used steriods but I didn't know they were steriods, and believing it. Maybe I am the one that is far out here. If I get pulled over and the officer says, have you been drinking? I will try saying, yes but I didn't know it was beer and see if he lets me go.Misanthrope said:
If the players union fought having steriod testing done wouldn't you assume it is so they don't have to stop using it? If you are innocent, why act so guilty. And why are all these guys coming in 10 to 20 lbs. lighter this year? Because they worked their asses off during the offseason?Misanthrope said:
I don't care about Babe Ruth's vices. He hit 700+ naturally and I think that is the point that people that like baseball purity are trying to make.Misanthrope said:
Hank Aaron had no second job.Misanthrope said:
So does this mean I can write a book saying that Jose Canseco was a serial rapist because he can't prove he wasn't? The point to suing does not always have to be money. How about clearing your name?Misanthrope said:
Whose to say that he won't?Misanthrope said:
I also can't "prove" that Secretariat would not have won the triple crown with three legs but common sense tells me that I might be right. I would agree with that if you were talking about breaking the career hits or streak without an error, but when you are approaching a record that has mostly to do with power... I don't know. You don't go from averaging 33 HR's per year for 15 years then hit 73 without some "advantage."Misanthrope said:
Year Ag Tm Lg HR
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
1986 21 PIT NL 16
1987 22 PIT NL 25
1988 23 PIT NL 24
1989 24 PIT NL 19
1990 25 PIT NL 33
1991 26 PIT NL 25
1992 27 PIT NL 34
1993 28 SFG NL 46
1994 29 SFG NL 37
1995 30 SFG NL 33
1996 31 SFG NL 42
1997 32 SFG NL 40
1998 33 SFG NL 37
1999 34 SFG NL 34
2000 35 SFG NL 49
2001 36 SFG NL 73
2002 37 SFG NL 46
2003 38 SFG NL 45
2004 39 SFG NL 45
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