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Barry Bonds (Juiced Merge)

osugrad21 said:
Then you are 100% wrong....

Bat speed is not increased with muscle mass...

Ichiro's bat would SLOW down if he juiced...

The juice takes the same fundamental swing and puts more ass behind it...it has nothing to do with bat speed. Power numbers are not achieved by increased bat speed...Cecil Fielder hit 50 homeruns once he became a roly poly fatass...so when he became huge his hands suddenly got faster?

I understand what you are arguing, but you have the wrong terminology

i didnt realize we were arguing semantics here. if your position that increased strength wont increase your bat speed, then i dont know what to tell you. i didnt know we were going to have to get into an anatomical debate about muscle response to increased testosterone levels.
 
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Here's my take on this thread's topics.

Can steroids improve bat speed? - yes, marginally.

Do steriods make you more susceptiple to injury? - yes, generally.

Is Bonds an asshole? - yes, absolutely.
 
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tsteele316 said:
i didnt realize we were arguing semantics here. if your position that increased strength wont increase your bat speed, then i dont know what to tell you. i didnt know we were going to have to get into an anatomical debate about muscle response to increased testosterone levels.

I guess we will have to disagree then...I honestly don't think you are reading or comprehending anything I am trying to tell you which is fine. You are correct in half of your claim and wrong in other points. That is what sparked my response and debate but obviously I cannot explain my point well enough. Therefore, I'll just agree to disagree.

I'm going to turn in my resignation to my AD now

:2004: <---notice my bat speed and oversized forehead?
 
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Barry Bonds is an arrogant cheater.
He is everything that is wrong with pro sports.
Only out for himself, could care less about the team.
Obsessed with money and furthering himself only.
I despise that man, him being a cheater only makes it worse.
 
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Let's get something in here.

Force= Mass X Acceleration (Why do I feel Smithlabs lurking over my shoulder)

The Force in this case is the energy with which the hitter strikes the ball.

The Mass, is the mass of the bat (More or less)

The Acceleration is batspeed.

The only real physics argument you can make is that if you have the same swing, and you use a 30 ounce bat one time, and a 32 ounce bat the next. The ball will leave the bat at a greater velocity with the 32 ounce bat. (And Travel Farther, provided all the other variables, humidity, wind, angle of impact, pitch speed, since this is an elastic collision, remain the same).

If you assume that most power hitters are already pretty strong... Its my opinion that the addition of fast twitch muscle mass (The fast twitch is an important part) assists the consistent power hitter in one specific way.... and that's faster acceleration.... not necessarily higher maximum bat speed, but the ability to reach maximum batspeed faster.

As Dihard pointed out... most of the power in a swing is generated in a hitters lower body... that's where you get weight transfer, and control the pivot (hips) for a swing... but the last part of the swing is firing your hands through the zone.

The advantage of being able to reach maximum batspeed faster is an advantage because it gives you the ability to "shorten your stroke." Thus you can commit to a pitch later (if only a split second) thus giving you the abilty to react to the speed and breaks of the pitch better.... which in turn allows you to control your balance better.... which means fewer things can go wrong in the swing.... It also allows you to be more accurate when striking the ball, thus making more consistent contact. (Think if your trying to hit a mark on a tree with an axe... is it easier to hit the mark with a full swing or half swing if you swing as hard as you can?)

DiHard was absolutely right about Griffey... but if you look at Griffey's swing vs Bond's Swing... the obvious difference is the legnth of his swing arc... Griffey's swinging a Big Bertha, Bonds is swinging a hatchet... Ever seem like McGwire was just flicking his wristst and the ball would leave the park? Well... all the elements of his swing were there... he just did them all very quickly because he could get through the hitting zone so quickly.


Boy, that turned out a lot longer than I had planned.
 
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good stuff aka....bonds power is generated by a short swing that is dominated by hip and shoulder rotation.....vlad and griffey use a longer stoke to generate the bat speed they need...as does sheffield....

bonds, mcguire (st.louis era) and sosa are the only hitters i have ever seen that could be that compact and consistently drive it out.....

there is no coincidence that the balco story broke and homerun production went down??


and if you want to see one great example of hip rotation.....watch the babe....that guy had some serious torque in an era when nobody knew to teach it....the babes swing was a thing of beauty....
 
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there is no coincidence that the balco story broke and homerun production went down??

Maybe... the 73 (?- Is that the number? brain lock) HR season that Barry had was also quite a statistical aberration... He rarely has hit 45 in any other year if I remember correctly.
 
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as i have said a zillion times...the leagues conscious decision to make the strike zone the size of a shoe box is the reason for the reediculous offensive numbers you see today....

steroids and watered-down pitching talent are secondary contributors.....
 
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AKAKBUCK said:
Maybe... the 73 (?- Is that the number? brain lock) HR season that Barry had was also quite a statistical aberration... He rarely has hit 45 in any other year if I remember correctly.
its normal to have a season like that as you get older. no steroids involved there :roll1:
 
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BuckeyeNation27 said:
its normal to have a season like that as you get older. no steroids involved there :roll1:

Did say I anything about steroids numb nuts? I'm not saying the guys juicing or he isn't... The point is that dhihard was inferring that his production went down because he might have gone off the roids... my point is that he only came close to that number one time, so it may have had to do with that or it might not have. Brady Anderson hit 50 freaking dingers once.... I don't think ayone is accusing his skinny white 90210 looking ass of being on roids... sometimes people just have exceptional years....

Now... as far as Bonds being on Roids... do you have more solid evidenc that he's on roids than MoC had papers written for him?
 
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Anyone who thinks Bonds isn't juicing is kidding themselves. He's a Hall of Famer either way, but his numbers have jumped (and I mean JUMPED!) since he got hooked up with Balco in the 2000/2001 offseason. Take a look at the difference (I took his average season from '86 through '00 vs. his average season in '01 through '04):

Runs Per Season: 106 (pre '01) and 122 (post '01)

Homers Per Season: 33 (pre '01) and 52 (!) (post '01)

RBI Per Season: 94 (pre-juice) and 110 (post-juice)

BB Per Season: 103 (pre-Balco) vs. 189 (post-Balco)

Batting Average: .289 lifetime through '00 vs. .349 since '01

Slugging: .567 lifetime through '00 vs. .809 since '01

There's no way that a 37 year old man with 15 years in baseball already under his belt improves his stats that much naturally. It just isn't possible.

His Runs Per Season increased by 16, his homers increased by 19 !!, RBIs by 16, his walks increased by 86 (!!!), his batting average was raised by 60 (that's right, SIXTY!) points, and his Slugging went WAY up by an astounding 242 POINTS!!!
 
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AKAKBUCK said:
Did say I anything about steroids numb nuts? I'm not saying the guys juicing or he isn't... The point is that dhihard was inferring that his production went down because he might have gone off the roids... my point is that he only came close to that number one time, so it may have had to do with that or it might not have. Brady Anderson hit 50 freaking dingers once.... I don't think ayone is accusing his skinny white 90210 looking ass of being on roids... sometimes people just have exceptional years....

Now... as far as Bonds being on Roids... do you have more solid evidenc that he's on roids than MoC had papers written for him?
ease up on the paint chips. i wasnt disagreeing with you
 
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Bonds used roids

Report: Bonds admitted to using substances thought to be steroids

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- Barry Bonds testified to a grand jury that he used a clear substance and a cream given to him by a trainer who was indicted in a steroid-distribution ring, but said he didn't know they were steroids, the San Francisco Chronicle reported Friday.

Bonds told the federal grand jury last year that Greg Anderson, his personal trainer, told him that the substances he used in 2003 were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a rubbing balm for arthritis, according to a transcript of his testimony reviewed by the Chronicle.

The substances Bonds described were similar to ones known as ``the clear'' and ``the cream,'' two steroids from the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative, the lab at the center of the steroid scandal.


Bonds' attorney, Michael Rains, said the leak of grand jury testimony was an attempt to smear his client. Grand jury transcripts are sealed and the Chronicle did not say who showed them the documents.

``My view has always been this case has been the U.S. vs. Bonds, and I think the government has moved in certain ways in a concerted effort to indict my client,'' Rains told the newspaper. ``And I think their failure to indict him has resulted in their attempts to smear him publicly.''

Calls to Rains' office from The Associated Press went unanswered Thursday night.

The Chronicle story is the latest development this week in the more than yearlong BALCO probe. On Thursday, the paper reported Yankees slugger Jason Giambi told the grand jury he injected himself with human growth hormone in 2003 and also used steroids for at least three seasons.

Also, ABC News and ESPN the Magazine released excerpts of interviews with Conte, in which the BALCO founder admits to watching Olympic star Marion Jones inject herself in the leg with human growth hormone. Jones' attorneys denied that she ever used performance-enhancing drugs.

Conte's interview with ABC's ''20/20'' program will air Friday night.

It is uncertain what punishment, if any, Bonds could receive from baseball, which didn't have penalties for steroid use until 2003.

While discipline is spelled out for positive tests and criminal convictions from 2003 on, admission of illegal steroid use is not addressed, possibly giving Selig an opening to punish Bonds. Even so, baseball can't test him more than other players because it's been over a year since the steroid use referred to in the testimony.

Baseball commissioner Bud Selig repeatedly has called for year-round random testing and harsher penalties, but management and the players' association have failed to reach an agreement. The contract runs through the 2006 season.

``I've been saying for many months: I instituted a very, very tough program in the minor leagues on steroids in 2001. We need to have that program at the major league level,'' Selig said Thursday in Washington, D.C. ``We're going to leave no stone unturned until we have that policy in place by spring training 2005.''

link

not a shocker but at least it's out in the open now. Well there goes my dream of getting bigger and stronger when I'm in my late 30's.
 
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