Barry Bonds (Juiced Merge)

[tsteele316]

steroids increase muscle, which in turn increases bat speed. simple physics handles the rest.

 

[osugrad21]

steroids increase muscle, which in turn increases bat speed. simple physics handles the rest.

Muscle mass does not increase bat speed...many, many other components make up bat speed but muscle mass is not one of them.

Ted Williams had one of quickest bats in the history of the game...he wasn't exactly a bodybuilder

 

[tsteele316]

Muscle mass does not increase bat speed...many, many other components make up bat speed but muscle mass is not one of them.

Ted Williams had one of quickest bats in the history of the game...he wasn't exactly a bodybuilder

if you have stronger forearms and stronger wrists, you will generate more bat speed, and will likely swing a heavier bat.

all you have to do is look at the builds of the big time home run hitters in MLB. Sosa, Bonds, Giambi. Even Vlad Guerro is pretty big. A-Rod is the only guy that smacks dingers pretty well that isnt huge. McGuire was huge. Seems like a pretty common trend.

Donte Bichette was popping out 40-50 HR's a year, and downing andro like it was going out of style. He went off it, and now he's playing with Pedro Cerano in some class B league somewhere.

 

[DiHard]

the hips are probably the most important in regards to bat speed.....

 

[Bucklion]

There's a lot of reasons Bonds' numbers are what they are, and steroids are only one of them. I'm tired of everyone saying "steroids don't help" because it's a crock...if it didn't no one would take them. Those long fly ball outs become home runs every single time with the juice, and Bonds has taken full advantage, but of course he's not the only one, so I guess that means he's the best geeked up hitter in baseball. That, and the watered down pitching and the gluttony of new ballparks with easy home run zones for left-handers to increase scoring and draw fans, has inflated his numbers to where they would have never been 20 or 30 years ago. Bonds is a good hitter, and no, steroids don't help the coordination it takes to make good contact with the ball, but I refuse to call him the greatest of all time because he's not. And the greatest player of all time? The greatest player of all time could, in his prime, throw out Sid fucking Bream.

 

[osugrad21]

if you have stronger forearms and stronger wrists, you will generate more bat speed, and will likely swing a heavier bat.

all you have to do is look at the builds of the big time home run hitters in MLB. Sosa, Bonds, Giambi. Even Vlad Guerro is pretty big. A-Rod is the only guy that smacks dingers pretty well that isnt huge. McGuire was huge. Seems like a pretty common trend..

McGwire hit 49 HRs as a tall, skinny rookie. Bonds was a consistent 30/30 guy...

Trust me TSteele, muscle mass does not generate bat speed. As DiHard said, hips are the key.

Average hitters rotate (or clear out) the shoulders primarily to give the arms a platform to swing from (extend from would be more accurate). This is why average hitters believe that to have power - they must have those powerful arms. This is not the case with great hitters. I can't stress the following point strong enough: DO NOT RELY ON THE MUSCELS OF THE ARMS TO ACCELERATE THE HANDS. --- With Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa and hitters of their caliber, the role of the hands are to impart the bat with torque (get the bat to rotate about a point between the two hands). Any attempt to force the hands forward ahead of rotation impedes the natural arc and timing of bat head acceleration.

When the burden of overcoming the bats inertia falls on smaller muscles (like those of the arms) the swing will have that tense and jerky look. The huge rotational force generated by the large muscle groups (legs, torso and back) can overwhelm the smaller ones if not supported. --- The smooth, loose, powerful swing of a great hitter is the result of allowing the body's rotation against the lead arm and the bats reaction to torque to accelerate the hands.

If muscle mass equated to great hitters and incredible bat speed, Gold's Gym would dominate the league every year.

BTW, Bonds uses a 32 oz bat....not exactly heavy

 

[tsteele316]

If muscle mass equated to great hitters and incredible bat speed, Gold's Gym would dominate the league every year.

You are forgetting the basic assumption that guys that are juicing up already have hitting talent. A musclehead sint going to come into mlb and smack the ball around, nobody's debating that. The fact is that a skilled hitter will hit more homeruns when juiced than he will without it. If musclemass didnt help in hitting, there wouldnt be the body type trend that there is among the leagues top HR hitters.

also 30/30 is a long way from 73.

 

[DiHard]

ken griffey jr has the most beautiful hip rotation i have seen......if only that sob could have stayed healthy.....theres a skinny guy that could go deep with the best of them....

 

[osugrad21]

You are forgetting the basic assumption that guys that are juicing up already have hitting talent. A musclehead sint going to come into mlb and smack the ball around, nobody's debating that. The fact is that a skilled hitter will hit more homeruns when juiced than he will without it. If musclemass didnt help in hitting, there wouldnt be the body type trend that there is among the leagues top HR hitters.

No no bro. You said muscle equals bat speed...that was the argument. Of course players who are juiced up can muscle the ball farther...but that is not due to bat speed.


Maybe you used the wrong terminology for your point or I'm just a little overzealous today, but either way. Muscles do not equate to bat speed. Bad speed refers to how quickly the hands get through the contact zone...it is irrelevant to power numbers. Take Ichiro for example...lightning fast hands...little power. I provided the research for bat speed for that argument...now your HR increase is a whole other argument...and one I would not argue.

 

[tsteele316]

No no bro. You said muscle equals bat speed...that was the argument. Of course players who are juiced up can muscle the ball farther...but that is not due to bat speed.

The argument is that two players with the identically same fundamental swing, from hips to hands to weight distribution of feet: if one gets juiced up and gets stronger, he will have better bat speed.

you have to compare apples to apples in this argument.

 

[osugrad21]

The argument is that two players with the identically same fundamental swing, from hips to hands to weight distribution of feet: if one gets juiced up and gets stronger, he will have better bat speed.

Then you are 100% wrong....

Bat speed is not increased with muscle mass...

Ichiro's bat would SLOW down if he juiced...

The juice takes the same fundamental swing and puts more ass behind it...it has nothing to do with bat speed. Power numbers are not achieved by increased bat speed...Cecil Fielder hit 50 homeruns once he became a roly poly fatass...so when he became huge his hands suddenly got faster?

I understand what you are arguing, but you have the wrong terminology

 

[heisman]

Muscle mass does not increase bat speed...many, many other components make up bat speed but muscle mass is not one of them.

Ted Williams had one of quickest bats in the history of the game...he wasn't exactly a bodybuilder

You're splitting hairs. Of course, it's not the muscle "mass" that makes his bat quicker, it's the gain in the fast twitch muscle tissue that increases his bat speed. No matter how you cut the mustard, the roids made him from a great/superstar/HOFer to the greatest hitter of all time.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

aside from the fact that baseball sucks, why are we talking about it 2 days before scUM?

 

[heisman]

ken griffey jr has the most beautiful hip rotation i have seen......if only that sob could have stayed healthy.....theres a skinny guy that could go deep with the best of them....

Agreed, but remember, Bonds was skinnier than Griffey and was going deep just as often. It wasn't until he teamed up with Balco that he became superhuman.

 

[osugrad21]

You're splitting hairs. Of course, it's not the muscle "mass" that makes his bat quicker, it's the gain in the fast twitch muscle tissue that increases his bat speed. No matter how you cut the mustard, the roids made him from a great/superstar/HOFer to the greatest hitter of all time.

You are correct concerning fast twitch tissue...but that was not the point of the debate.

Good point though.