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Barry Bonds (Juiced Merge)

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StadiumDorm said:
Honestly, Bonds allowed his pre-98 stats to be discarded the moment he risked it all be cheating. Could he have retired in '98 and still been a Hall-of-Famer? Possibly. But that's delving into that coulda, woulda, sh... well you get the point. The fact is he cheated. And like momma always told me, cheaters never win.



He bet on baseball. I don't doubt that. That doesn't mean he cheated. He broke the rules. Cheating is "breaking the rules to gain a competitive advantage." That's what Barry did. I agree with half your statement though. He's a hall-of-famer without the 'roids. But that's not the case here.
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I agree with the majority of this line of thinking. I would still put him in the Hall just based off his non roids numbers but at this point I think it comes down to personal preference. I'm glad we could come to an ammicable conclusion :biggrin:
 
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Not putting him in the hall is the punishment of cheating (aside from the side effects from 8 years of HEAVY steroid use).

Say a guy goes to work every day at a Walmart and never steals from the register. He's employee of the month 8 times and his register always takes in the most money. Then one day he sees somebody skimming from the top and getting away with it, so he does it.....for 8 years. They finally catch him. Should he be punished? he went so long without stealing before he actually did it.
 
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I would make the argument that Griffey Jr was the best player of the era right up to 1998 but there is no disputing Bond's numbers up to that time either.

As far as HOF I think he's done. The media hates the guy, former players hate the guy, his peers hate the guy, all players feel insulted and cheated by the guy. ESPN employees aside he has no friends on this one.

IMO his numbers won't ever get the ****'s they so richly deserve but he never gets in the HOF and in the court of public opinion he's toast. No one gives the 1919 black sox credit for being a great team and in time thats what Bond's chapter in baseball history will be based on, his disgrace not his accomplishments.
 
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so pete rose wont be allowed into the HOF for his accomplishments as a player because he bet on baseball as a manager, yet barry bonds should get into the Hall for his accomplishments as a player despite the fact he used performance enhancing drugs for the last 7+ years of his career.

all those willingto let bonds in must also be in support of letting in mcgwire sosa and palmeiro.
 
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Jaxbuck said:
I would make the argument that Griffey Jr was the best player of the era right up to 1998 but there is no disputing Bond's numbers up to that time either.

As far as HOF I think he's done. The media hates the guy, former players hate the guy, his peers hate the guy, all players feel insulted and cheated by the guy. ESPN employees aside he has no friends on this one.

IMO his numbers won't ever get the ****'s they so richly deserve but he never gets in the HOF and in the court of public opinion he's toast. No one gives the 1919 black sox credit for being a great team and in time thats what Bond's chapter in baseball history will be based on, his disgrace not his accomplishments.
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I've had the Bonds vs Junior discussion in real life and I think on this board. The numbers are amazingly close in every single category. You can't go wrong picking either of them.
 
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Somehow, we aren't going to let Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame, even though no one has evidence that he ever cheated.
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Rose has admitted he bet on baseball...sorry, he's getting into the HOF only if he buys a ticket.

As for Bond's pre-steroids accomplishments, those are all now null and void as for as the HOF goes. He (allegedly :roll1:) used drugs that are not only unethical but against federal law, and give him a huge unfair advantage in not only his personal statistics but in his team's ability to win games.
 
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I will have more fun with this when I get home from work. But I will leave with this tidbit.

What Bonds did was not cheating and against the baseball rules. There was no testing and no written rule in baseball that you were not allowed to use steroids. Now you can say it was illegal, fine but you can be a total drug addict and only get suspended a season and get reinstated 20 times.

Was it unethical? Yep. But baseball has never been an ethical sport with stealing signs, corking bats, spitballs & greenies. So why start now?

I will say this if your career was made by the Home Run during the steroid era you aren't getting in. McGwire, Canseco, Sosa & Palmeiro should not get in. But Bonds was deserving before the home runs and the only thing he did was ruin the reputation of what could have been a legendary baseball player.

While I don't like Bonds, I respect him as a great player and everyone is missing the boat on a great athlete steroids or not.
 
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Piney said:
I will have more fun with this when I get home from work. But I will leave with this tidbit.

What Bonds did was not cheating and against the baseball rules. There was no testing and no written rule in baseball that you were not allowed to use steroids. Now you can say it was illegal, fine but you can be a total drug addict and only get suspended a season and get reinstated 20 times.
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Come on now. Crack never gave Daryl Strawberry or Dwight Gooden a competetive advantage. So the analogy is fruitless. The fact that the conduct is illegal only asserts that a rule by baseball would have been redundant. They would have been telling him he couldn't do something he already couldn't legally do. The reason he did steroids was because he believed it helped his performance - which clearly it did. The reason it gave him a competitive advantage is because other players weren't willing to take either the legal or health risk associated with steroids. In honor of those players, Bonds is being rightfully ripped apart.

So he did something illegal that gave him a competitive advantage over other players. I don't want to play semantics, but that's cheating IN MY BOOK - MLB rule or not.

Was it unethical? Yep. But baseball has never been an ethical sport with stealing signs, corking bats, spitballs & greenies. So why start now?
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Stealing signs happens when teams allow them to be stolen. Corking a bat is cheating. Spitballs are cheating. Using Steroids is cheating.

I will say this if your career was made by the Home Run during the steroid era you aren't getting in. McGwire, Canseco, Sosa & Palmeiro should not get in. But Bonds was deserving before the home runs and the only thing he did was ruin the reputation of what could have been a legendary baseball player.

While I don't like Bonds, I respect him as a great player and everyone is missing the boat on a great athlete steroids or not.
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He WAS a great athlete. But, you can't just wipe away the last 7 years like he retired in 1998 instead of turning to steroids. The fact is that his legacy hurts baseball - and I fail to see how that is Hall of Fame material.
 
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Great fark from soonerfans.


bonds_asterisks.jpg
 
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I don't know how you can admit anyone from the 90's-2000's without there being some suspicion of steroids.

Hell, Roger Clemens is twice as big as he used to be, who knows if he's used them.

I'm a baseball purist who feels McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Palmeiro, etc... should never be admitted.

Who cares about his pre-98 #'s, what are people going to remember, his career with the Pirates or his steroid-induced hitting rampage?

I know what I'll remember.

If you let Bonds in, you better let Shoeless Joe Jackson and Pete Rose in.
 
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StadiumDorm said:
Come on now. Crack never gave Daryl Strawberry or Dwight Gooden a competetive advantage.

So he did something illegal that gave him a competitive advantage over other players. I don't want to play semantics, but that's cheating IN MY BOOK - MLB rule or not.
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You never know what crack could do for an athlete, it might be like alcohol was for Mantle or Ruth? :biggrin: It was always assumed steriods couldn't give you the eye/hand coordination to hit a baseball better?

But how was steriods a competitive advantage over other players if more than 50% used steriods as some think did? And that includes pitchers to get a few extra MPH on their fastball? Heck, that could be the reason so many pitchers suffered injuries? Who knows!
 
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Piney said:
You never know what crack could do for an athlete, it might be like alcohol was for Mantle or Ruth? :biggrin: It was always assumed steriods couldn't give you the eye/hand coordination to hit a baseball better?

But how was steriods a competitive advantage over other players if more than 50% used steriods as some think did? And that includes pitchers to get a few extra MPH on their fastball? Heck, that could be the reason so many pitchers suffered injuries? Who knows!
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I don't know the numbers were, and I'm not going to speculate. But there certainly were players not willing to take the risk. And it's sad to admit, but those players have to be commended for refraining from doing something no ballplayer should do.

Bonds, Mac, and any other player who used 'roids didn't have the right to put that decision to other players. Take steroids and remain competitive or refrain and risk getting sent back to the minors. What a terrible decision to be put to. And it's players like Bonds who are at fault. Fuck him.
 
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I think Piney makes a good distinction. If the question is only whether your numbers are due to enhanced performance, simply discount those numbers and make a judgement on what is left.

However, if you are making it a character issue - ala Shoeless Joe, Pete, et al - we are talking something very different.

That said, I would argue that you keep Bonds out of the HOF. He didn't just take steroids, he has consistently and adamantly lied about it. There may not have been a steroid rule on the books, but nobody can argue they thought it was OK or we would have had players taking steroids openly.

He has put his name in the record book in lieu of (assumedly) honest men. Baseball is the worse for what he has done. Why honor him?


On a side note, I was at the game where Bert Blyleven threw his 3,000th strikeout. I saw the ball he used when I visited the HOF. That game was also the first major league game I ever took my son to. That same night one of the other players in that game hit for the cycle and became my sons favorite player. His name was Kirby Puckett. If you put Bonds in the Hall don't put him anywhere near Kirby.
 
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