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Abortion debate (Split from Obama Thread)

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buckeyegrad said:
The call for "root cause analysis" reminded me of one of the most powerful articles I've read on abortion:

From the article:

"If you were in charge of a nature preserve and you noticed that the pregnant female mammals were trying to miscarry their pregnancies, eating poisonous plants or injuring themselves, what would you do? Would you think of it as a battle between the pregnant female and her unborn and find ways to help those pregnant animals miscarry? No, of course not. You would immediately think, “Something must be really wrong in this environment.” Something is creating intolerable stress, so much so that animals would rather destroy their own offspring than bring them into the world. You would strive to identify and correct whatever factors were causing this stress in the animals. The same thing goes for the human animal. Abortion gets presented to us as if it’s something women want; both pro-choice and pro-life rhetoric can reinforce that idea. But women do this only if all their other options look worse. It’s supposed to be “her choice,” yet so many women say, “I really didn’t have a choice.”
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That is an interesting perspective. It's very interesting that almost every debate on abortion focuses on preventing abortion from occurring and very little time is spent dealing with "Something must be really wrong in this environment. Something is creating intolerable stress, so much so that animals would rather destroy their own offspring than bring them into the world."

For whatever it's worth, there are a variety of bird species that practices various forms of brood-reduction. In a number of species, "widowed" males have been observed throwing their own eggs & hatchlings out of the nest -- presumably so that they can attract new females for breeding. Some species choose to feed only the strongest chick causing the weakest to starve, others allow the strongest chick to kill the weaker ones. It's even been observed where parents kill their own offspring. I don't really know where I'm going with this...just seems at least vaguely relevant that infanticide upon one's own progeny, although not common in nature, is not especially uncommon, either. And it's not either "good" or "bad" except when viewed through our own human moral filters.
 
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MililaniBuckeye said:
So let's go out and "retroactively abort" those born with mental illness or disabilities, because the should've been aborted in the first place...you know, to prevent all their suffering they've had to endure because their mother failed to terminate them pre-partum.
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i have noticed that you seem unwilling to say whether or not your interested in taking any responsibility for the care of these individuals. either directly or indirectly through taxes. as you seem to be adamant in your opinion that they should not be aborted (or prevented from being conceived to begin with). im guessing if i go to the political forum i won't find any posts where you state your dislike or non support for programs like welfare, medicare and medicade correct?

im trying really hard to not turn this into a political debate. however, i have noticed that a certain party has a belief system that seems to slant in the direction of abortion being the worst thing ever. then goes on to bash the support system that then, more often than not, has to take responsibility for the care of the children that exist as a consequence of the mother not having an abortion.

i ask you again. are YOU willing to be personally and or financially responsible for the child that is not aborted? be it through your checkbook directly or your tax dollars or just your physical effort to raise said child? when the parent, or parents, are incapable or unwilling to provide a stable and healthy living environment for a child for whatever reason. are you willing to step up to the table and pick up the pieces they are dropping to the floor? yes no maybe so?
 
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No I am not willing to be taxed for anything under any circumstance.

I am willing to let people suffer the consequences of their decisions.

I don't delude myself that it is the job of daddy government to take care of anything other than the fucking borders and national defense and defending the Constitution.

I do believe in the right to abortion. People are free to make as many horrible decisions as they want in my world. Abortion is the wrong decision, but I ain't stopping you.

FYI, ran into this Constitution yesterday. . . .

578fe72642a4b05fd7a136d673c18021.jpg
 
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Fungo Squiggly said:
That is an interesting perspective. It's very interesting that almost every debate on abortion focuses on preventing abortion from occurring and very little time is spent dealing with "Something must be really wrong in this environment. Something is creating intolerable stress, so much so that animals would rather destroy their own offspring than bring them into the world."

For whatever it's worth, there are a variety of bird species that practices various forms of brood-reduction. In a number of species, "widowed" males have been observed throwing their own eggs & hatchlings out of the nest -- presumably so that they can attract new females for breeding. Some species choose to [Zeke] only the strongest chick causing the weakest to starve, others allow the strongest chick to kill the weaker ones. It's even been observed where parents kill their own offspring. I don't really know where I'm going with this...just seems at least vaguely relevant that infanticide upon one's own progeny, although not common in nature, is not especially uncommon, either. And it's not either "good" or "bad" except when viewed through our own human moral filters.
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actually, most animals practice some form of infanticide in the wild. many mammal species leave a newborn or older offspring to die should the environment be harsh enough to deem the mother to think that is warranted. in fact, simply being born too late in the birthing season for some species is a death sentence. If you are not strong enough to move with the heard.... your minutes (not days) are numbered. if they move and your not strong enough to keep up, you will die.

i can't think of any milk producing species that will continue to produce milk if they are not getting enough to eat themselves. that isn't even a conscious choice, that's simple genetics.
 
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BIATCHabutuka said:
No I am not willing to be taxed for anything under any circumstance.

I am willing to let people suffer the consequences of their decisions.
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which people specifically?

some seem convinced these people should have the children and take care of them. sounds good in theory, let people suffer the consequences of their actions and all. but can you honestly sit there and say a person who is incapable of being a parent who is forced to do so is going to be the only one that suffers?

why exactly is it ok for us as a society to demand two people who are clearly incapable of raising a child have the one they conceive. but it isn't ok for anyone to expect us who did the demanding to take any responsibility for the care of that child? sure.... make the parents sleep in the bed they made blah blah. that kid has to lay in that bed as well. and so do we when they use our tax dollars to fund their fucked up lifestyle.

what people don't seem to get is that is a communal bed and we're all taking one up the ass. well, except the "parents" who clearly are not worthy of the title to begin with.

though i do agree with you to a large extent on daddy government.

I do believe in the right to abortion. People are free to make as many horrible decisions as they want in my world. Abortion is the wrong decision, but I ain't stopping you.

FYI, ran into this Constitution yesterday. . . .
Click to expand...

technically speaking, you can only make as many horrible decisions as the society around you will allow.
 
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martinss01 said:
actually, most animals practice some form of infanticide in the wild. many mammal species leave a newborn or older offspring to die should the environment be harsh enough to deem the mother to think that is warranted. in fact, simply being born too late in the birthing season for some species is a death sentence. If you are not strong enough to move with the heard.... your minutes (not days) are numbered. if they move and your not strong enough to keep up, you will die.

i can't think of any milk producing species that will continue to produce milk if they are not getting enough to eat themselves. that isn't even a conscious choice, that's simple genetics.
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You are absolutely correct - I was thinking more in terms of specific cases where there are sufficient resources and yet an infant animal is killed or let to die with our human understanding of the act being that they are allowed to die simply because there may not be enough resources later. Either way, nature is a cruel bitch and I don't know that arguing that human behavior is more like animal behavior is a stance that will be a persuasive argument against abortion in the interest of self-preservation.
 
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Fungo Squiggly said:
That is an interesting perspective. It's very interesting that almost every debate on abortion focuses on preventing abortion from occurring and very little time is spent dealing with "Something must be really wrong in this environment. Something is creating intolerable stress, so much so that animals would rather destroy their own offspring than bring them into the world."
Click to expand...

If you would like to learn about the root cause of all of mankind's intolerable stress, here are your answers.

creaturefromjekyllislandfront.jpg


If you want to read but not buy, here is a free link.

https://archive.org/details/CreatureFromJekyllIslandByG.Edward-G.EdwardGriffin
 
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martinss01 said:
i have noticed that you seem unwilling to say whether or not your interested in taking any responsibility for the care of these individuals. either directly or indirectly through taxes. as you seem to be adamant in your opinion that they should not be aborted (or prevented from being conceived to begin with). im guessing if i go to the political forum i won't find any posts where you state your dislike or non support for programs like welfare, medicare and medicade correct?
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Gee, how about the person pregnant bearing responsibility for the care of the child whom she is carrying? And I have no idea where you get your comment "or prevented from being conceived to begin with". No one can tell a woman she needs to get pregnant or is forbidden to get pregnant. However, once she decides to partake in an activity which could lead to her pregnancy, she bears responsibility for her decision. Only under extreme circumstances (rape, woman's life in danger from pregnancy, etc.) should abortion be an option, and even then an early-term abortion.
 
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MililaniBuckeye said:
Gee, how about the person pregnant bearing responsibility for the care of the child whom she is carrying? And I have no idea where you get your comment "or prevented from being conceived to begin with". No one can tell a woman she needs to get pregnant or is forbidden to get pregnant. However, once she decides to partake in an activity which could lead to her pregnancy, she bears responsibility for her decision. Only under extreme circumstances (rape, woman's life in danger from pregnancy, etc.) should abortion be an option, and even then an early-term abortion.
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If you give a person responsibility for their actions shouldn't that also include a right to an abortion?
Isn't that her "responsibility" also?
 
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Taosman said:
Why should a bunch of old white men tell women what they can do with their bodies?
Next they'll be taking away their right to vote.
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Why should they be able to force me into their retirement Ponzi known as Social Security, what about my right to choose there?

Them racist [redacted] always asking for ID and crap.
 
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