2021 Team Discussion

[pnuts34]

Urban has said you need at least 30 starts in college to be a good NFL qb... Justin as 20ish ... Trevor has over 30 ....

I think that is a little of an embellishment by Urban. I think it has much more to do with the team you go, the culture and the offensive scheme/system that you inherit. Baker Mayfield and Josh Rosen had more than 30 starts, and Josh Allen did not, yet I'd say that Allen has performed better as he has been in the NFL than the other 2, and may end up being the best QB in that year's draft next to Lamar Jackson(who did have over 30 starts, but had a HC who tailored the offense to his skills and strengths). Lawrence going to the Jags or Jets, no matter how many starts he has, will have a much harder time having success than Fields, if Fields were to go to a Patriots team, or a team with a more stable infrastructure(i.e. 49ers, Vikings, Colts, etc) and just needs a QB to lead them.

 

[Buckeneye]

I think that is a little of an embellishment by Urban. I think it has much more to do with the team you go, the culture and the offensive scheme/system that you inherit. Baker Mayfield and Josh Rosen had more than 30 starts, and Josh Allen did not, yet I'd say that Allen has performed better as he has been in the NFL than the other 2, and may end up being the best QB in that year's draft next to Lamar Jackson(who did have over 30 starts, but had a HC who tailored the offense to his skills and strengths). Lawrence going to the Jags or Jets, no matter how many starts he has, will have a much harder time having success than Fields, if Fields were to go to a Patriots team, or a team with a more stable infrastructure(i.e. 49ers, Vikings, Colts, etc) and just needs a QB to lead them.

Between Juco and Wyoming, Josh Allen started 31 games.

 

[ScriptOhio]

Even with the recent negative draft talk around Fields, I don’t see a reason in him coming back. McShay has Fields possibly falling to the Patriots, and that still the freaking 15th pick! And he could easily go #1 to the Jags and Urban, that’s not out of the realm of possibility. If BakerMayfield can go #1, then Fields is realistic to a coach at his former school

McShay is just writing an article. Anything is "possible", but how realistic is it? Does he actually predict that Fields will fall to 15 in his mock draft?

Just sayin': He'll never fall to 15th, he has too much potential. If the Patriots really want him they will have to trade up in the draft.

 

[pnuts34]

Between Juco and Wyoming, Josh Allen started 31 games.

That's still barely 30 starts. And 2 names who didn't have 30 stars in college are Aaron Rodger and Tom Brady. And both still make my point that the team you get drafted by affects you more than college starts.

McShay is just writing an article. Anything is "possible", but how realistic is it? Does he actually predict that Fields will fall to 15 in his mock draft?

Just sayin': He'll never fall to 15th, he has too much potential. If the Patriots really want him they will have to trade up in the draft.

I hear you, but my point still stands. And if Justin goes to teams like Chicago, Phily, NYJ, Detroit, Atlanta, his chances of success go down. Sam Darnold may have had more success on another team where he didn't have to produce an entire offense by himself. Baker benefited from the front office for Cleveland finally stepping up and getting weapons, and giving him a good OL. Down the road in Cincy, Burrow has a small chance of success, with average WRs, a terrible OL and decent RB that can only do so much behind a bad OL. Ben Roethlisberger's career has been helped a lot by going to the Steelers and not being in the spot Phillip Rivers was in, with a cheap franchise who didn't want to provide him with weapons to be successful.

 

[OregonBuckeye]

Between Juco and Wyoming, Josh Allen started 31 games.

Are Juco starts that meaningful though?

 

[ScriptOhio]

Even with the recent negative draft talk around Fields, I don’t see a reason in him coming back. McShay has Fields possibly falling to the Patriots, and that still the freaking 15th pick! And he could easily go #1 to the Jags and Urban, that’s not out of the realm of possibility. If BakerMayfield can go #1, then Fields is realistic to a coach at his former school

McShay is just writing an article. Anything is "possible", but how realistic is it? Does he actually predict that Fields will fall to 15 in his mock draft?

Just sayin': He'll never fall to 15th, he has too much potential. If the Patriots really want him they will have to trade up in the draft.

I hear you, but my point still stands. And if Justin goes to teams like Chicago, Phily, NYJ, Detroit, Atlanta, his chances of success go down. Sam Darnold may have had more success on another team where he didn't have to produce an entire offense by himself. Baker benefited from the front office for Cleveland finally stepping up and getting weapons, and giving him a good OL. Down the road in Cincy, Burrow has a small chance of success, with average WRs, a terrible OL and decent RB that can only do so much behind a bad OL. Ben Roethlisberger's career has been helped a lot by going to the Steelers and not being in the spot Phillip Rivers was in, with a cheap franchise who didn't want to provide him with weapons to be successful.

I agree Fields would be better off going to a team like the Saints where he could sit behind Drew Brees (age 42) a year or 2, learn the system, and start when Brees retires (i.e. like in year 2 or 3). But my point was that he won't be available at the spot the Saints (or Patriots for that matter) are drafting. The teams drafting #2 through #5 aren't going to say "Fields would be better off if I passed on him and let him go to Saints", etc.; if he is on top of their draft board when they draft and QB is a position of need they are going to draft him.

 

[AuTX Buckeye]

Are Juco starts that meaningful though?

I believe its any starts... its just the in game situation reps that matter as far as I’ve seen.

 

[Buckeneye]

That's still barely 30 starts. And 2 names who didn't have 30 stars in college are Aaron Rodger and Tom Brady. And both still make my point that the team you get drafted by affects you more than college starts.


I hear you, but my point still stands. And if Justin goes to teams like Chicago, Phily, NYJ, Detroit, Atlanta, his chances of success go down. Sam Darnold may have had more success on another team where he didn't have to produce an entire offense by himself. Baker benefited from the front office for Cleveland finally stepping up and getting weapons, and giving him a good OL. Down the road in Cincy, Burrow has a small chance of success, with average WRs, a terrible OL and decent RB that can only do so much behind a bad OL. Ben Roethlisberger's career has been helped a lot by going to the Steelers and not being in the spot Phillip Rivers was in, with a cheap franchise who didn't want to provide him with weapons to be successful.

First it isn't 30, now it's "barely 30". You want help digging out those goal posts to move back any farther?

Rogers and Brady are statistical outliers. I'll be kind enough to give you Rogers. Brady was a graduating senior and, in case it slipped your mind, a 5th found pick. NE didn't even envision what he would end up being. So If that's going to be the basis of your argument, so be it. But be so good to admit you're not a gambling man because the percentages against such an argument are decidedly NOT in your favor. I'd be happy to compile a list of underclass QB's with similar starts who didn't succeed. Care to guess whose list with have more names?

Jesus, I'm not saying it ISN'T possible for Fields to find success. And yes, I agree, organization stability is arguably the biggest component. As it stands, the earliest Fields goes is #2 to the Jets. Does that give you the warm and fuzzies? What are the other logical landing spots? ATL, Carolina, SF ?

And not to accuse you of being either too old or too young, but do you even remember those Charger rosters the first 5 years Rivers was there? LT, Sproles, Mike Turner, Antonio Gates, Chambers, Vincent Jackson, Malcolm Floyd a good Oline and a nasty defense. Them not winning at least one Superbowl is a complete failure of coaching. They were LOADED.

That was a terrible example. I'd take Rivers 2005-2008 supporting cast over Ben's 2005-2008 supporting cast and it really isn't close.

 

[Buckeneye]

Are Juco starts that meaningful though?

Yes. If anything, to get the ball rolling making the 2nd nature QB nuances just that.

Spitting out call language, huddle command, tape review, timing, protections. Sure, it isn't D-1. But that doesn't mean a young player can't take steps to learning the game at a higher level.

 

[pnuts34]

First it isn't 30, now it's "barely 30". You want help digging out those goal posts to move back any farther?

Rogers and Brady are statistical outliers. I'll be kind enough to give you Rogers. Brady was a graduating senior and, in case it slipped your mind, a 5th found pick. NE didn't even envision what he would end up being. So If that's going to be the basis of your argument, so be it. But be so good to admit you're not a gambling man because the percentages against such an argument are decidedly NOT in your favor. I'd be happy to compile a list of underclass QB's with similar starts who didn't succeed. Care to guess whose list with have more names?

Jesus, I'm not saying it ISN'T possible for Fields to find success. And yes, I agree, organization stability is arguably the biggest component. As it stands, the earliest Fields goes is #2 to the Jets. Does that give you the warm and fuzzies? What are the other logical landing spots? ATL, Carolina, SF ?

And not to accuse you of being either too old or too young, but do you even remember those Charger rosters the first 5 years Rivers was there? LT, Sproles, Mike Turner, Antonio Gates, Chambers, Vincent Jackson, Malcolm Floyd a good Oline and a nasty defense. Them not winning at least one Superbowl is a complete failure of coaching. They were LOADED.

That was a terrible example. I'd take Rivers 2005-2008 supporting cast over Ben's 2005-2008 supporting cast and it really isn't close.

Goal posts haven't been moved, but that magic 30 number isn't all as important as the team who drafts you.

You can compile a list all you want, but more factors go into a QB's success than only their college starts. And team and scheme is more important. And that would be in my favor over your # of starts. Hence why Eli Manning didn't want to go to the Chargers and a young John Elway forced Indy from drafting him. Elway and Manning passed your 30 start test, but knew that the team that could've drafted them wouldn't put them in a place for success.
I didn't say that Fields wouldn't find success so Idk where you're getting that. I'm just saying that he doesn't need 30 starts. And I'd bet he'd have better success at ATL, Carolina and SF than he would at NYJ and that Lawrence would have in Jacksonville. That's been my only point.

And you can have that Chargers team, I'd still take the team with Willie Parker, Hines Ward, Santonio, Heath Miller, also a great OL and the Steelers defense(Polamalu, Harrison, Farrior, Taylor, Keisel, Hampton, Woodley, Clark, etc) was worlds better than San Diego's(and the amount of Pro Bowlers in Pittsburgh's favor suggests that). And that all helps the QB.

 

[Buckeneye]

And you can have that Chargers team, I'd still take the team with Willie Parker, Hines Ward, Santonio, Heath Miller, also a great OL and the Steelers defense(Polamalu, Harrison, Farrior, Taylor, Keisel, Hampton, Woodley, Clark, etc) was worlds better than San Diego's(and the amount of Pro Bowlers in Pittsburgh's favor suggests that). And that all helps the QB.

PTG 6 pro-bowlers to SD's 7 in that Superbowl year.

Yeah... we're done here.

 

[pnuts34]

PTG 6 pro-bowlers to SD's 7 in that Superbowl year.

Yeah... we're done here.

Good point, you used 1 year and not 3. And btw, you made the point of SD's coaching, which shows how going to a team with good coaching also increases your success. So, yes we're done because you're just strengthening my points. There are just as important if not moreso factors in a QBs success than his college starts. Especially with the college game being used more in NFL offenses. But, you can ignore that too. I'll be done, you won

 

[Buckeneye]

Good point, you used 1 year and not 3.

I was being polite but...

2006
SD - 7
PTG - 4

2007
SD - 7
PTG - 6

This is sort of how you said Josh Allen didn't have anywhere near 30 starts. Turns out he had more than 30, which took me all of 60 seconds to find out. I think you're just spitting and not double checking a damn thing that you say.

And btw, you made the point of SD's coaching, which shows how going to a team with good coaching also increases your success.

YOU said

Ben Roethlisberger's career has been helped a lot by going to the Steelers and not being in the spot Phillip Rivers was in, with a cheap franchise who didn't want to provide him with weapons to be successful.

So, yes we're done because you're just strengthening my points.

I'm showing you that your assessment of the Chargers and thus Philip Rivers was wildly incorrect. I also went on to show that despite the roster stability, maximizing the talent is a coaches job. Something that the Steelers did during Ben's early years to great success (two SuperBowls) While SD came up empty handed and sent home with a couple upsets and a fired head coach.




There is no science to football. But in anything, I tend to play the odds. Those odds aren't really in Justin's Favor, especially if he goes to the Jets. But we'll see, time is the great vindicator.

 

[BB73]

First it isn't 30, now it's "barely 30". You want help digging out those goal posts to move back any farther?

Rogers and Brady are statistical outliers. I'll be kind enough to give you Rogers. Brady was a graduating senior and, in case it slipped your mind, a 5th found pick. NE didn't even envision what he would end up being. So If that's going to be the basis of your argument, so be it. But be so good to admit you're not a gambling man because the percentages against such an argument are decidedly NOT in your favor. I'd be happy to compile a list of underclass QB's with similar starts who didn't succeed. Care to guess whose list with have more names?

Jesus, I'm not saying it ISN'T possible for Fields to find success. And yes, I agree, organization stability is arguably the biggest component. As it stands, the earliest Fields goes is #2 to the Jets. Does that give you the warm and fuzzies? What are the other logical landing spots? ATL, Carolina, SF ?

And not to accuse you of being either too old or too young, but do you even remember those Charger rosters the first 5 years Rivers was there? LT, Sproles, Mike Turner, Antonio Gates, Chambers, Vincent Jackson, Malcolm Floyd a good Oline and a nasty defense. Them not winning at least one Superbowl is a complete failure of coaching. They were LOADED.

That was a terrible example. I'd take Rivers 2005-2008 supporting cast over Ben's 2005-2008 supporting cast and it really isn't close.

6th round, actually.

And this is the 2021 team thread, so probably not the best place for this discussion.

 

[calibuck]

Note on Urban's HC job with the Jags. Read somewhere that the owner/GM? is keeping control of the roster. Ergo, would assume that while Urban will have input, this guy will do the actual decision-making. Surprised that Urban would take the job under those conditions. UFM will still be held accountable for wins and losses though. Hard choice.