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2019-2020 Ohio State Men's Basketball (Official Thread)

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I don't think any of the injuries this season were practice-related. Andre hurt in game. Duane doesn't even know how he hurt his rib. Kyle, appendicitis.

There were some seasons with Thad where our depth was very iffy and any injury to a star could have really derailed us. Thankfully Thad had some sort of good luck charm because I don't know if in all his time here he had one player injury that really made a huge impact on the season overall (the Turner back injury certainly could have if he hadn't recovered and got back in top form so fast). Thad was hurt far worse by players leaving earlier than they were projected to, like Conley and Russell, and some guys leaving to go undrafted when they could have been huge for us as seniors, like Thomas and Ross.

In regards to serious injuries, I think Holtmann has been relatively fortunate so far. But it does seem like his teams are very dependent on chemistry and balance and playing like more than the sum of their parts--aside from KBD's B1G POTY campaign, Holtmann's three OSU teams so far have not had real overall talent advantages over top competition--so when you have these injuries/illnesses popping up that cause certain key players to miss some time, it does seem to be a bit more of a monkey wrench than it would be for a team that is maybe more talented or experienced and not quite as chemistry-calibrated. Hopefully as Holtmann builds the program into a place where in any given season we have a little more experienced talent to work with, we will better be able to absorb the issues that pretty much every basketball team has to face in a season.
 
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And maybe more than some!

I think it's especially difficult for Ohio State fans because so many have their mindset really geared towards football where there is not nearly as much parity and OSU is a blue blood. Losing is something that should only have to be endured once a season, at most. Preferably never.

Flip over to basketball where Stephen F***** Austin can beat Duke in Cameron.
 
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nomatta said:
I don't think any of the injuries this season were practice-related. Andre hurt in game. Duane doesn't even know how he hurt his rib. Kyle, appendicitis.

There were some seasons with Thad where our depth was very iffy and any injury to a star could have really derailed us. Thankfully Thad had some sort of good luck charm because I don't know if in all his time here he had one player injury that really made a huge impact on the season overall (the Turner back injury certainly could have if he hadn't recovered and got back in top form so fast). Thad was hurt far worse by players leaving earlier than they were projected to, like Conley and Russell, and some guys leaving to go undrafted when they could have been huge for us as seniors, like Thomas and Ross.

In regards to serious injuries, I think Holtmann has been relatively fortunate so far. But it does seem like his teams are very dependent on chemistry and balance and playing like more than the sum of their parts--aside from KBD's B1G POTY campaign, Holtmann's three OSU teams so far have not had real overall talent advantages over top competition--so when you have these injuries/illnesses popping up that cause certain key players to miss some time, it does seem to be a bit more of a monkey wrench than it would be for a team that is maybe more talented or experienced and not quite as chemistry-calibrated. Hopefully as Holtmann builds the program into a place where in any given season we have a little more experienced talent to work with, we will better be able to absorb the issues that pretty much every basketball team has to face in a season.
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Lighty breaking his foot in the 2008-09 season was a big deal at the time. Missed the last 3-4 months.
 
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nomatta said:
This is a sentiment popping up now after the last couple losses, on the 247 forums and 11W (and that one guy here in the Wiscy game thread, ha):

"Is Holtmann the answer?"

I guess that depends on what exactly the question is.

Is the question, "Who can get us back to the level that Thad took us to?"

Holtmann seems to have put the program back on an upward trajectory after the severe dip of Thad's last couple years... but bringing it all the way back up to level of Thad's prime years is not just a tall task, it's a monumental one. Ohio was producing good talent that Thad was locking down (while also adding other regional 5-star talents like Conley, Oden, Thomas, not to mention a high 4-star in Evan Turner who turned into the NPOY), the conference middle and bottom were weaker, in ten years we had five B1G championships, the longest S16 streak in the nation, a NC appearance, a Final Four, an Elite Eight...

Outside of the blue-blood programs, that high a level of consistent achievement in a power conference and in March--year after year--is exceptionally rare. I think Holtmann is a good recruiter, not great, so I don't expect that we are often going to see an OSU program that has really distinct talent advantages over top competition. Holtmann is trying to build towards more experienced talent, which ironically he started off with in his first season when he inherited KBD, Tate, and Kam. But every season so far has been a bit of glue and twine, smoke and mirrors, which speaks to Holtmann's ability as a head coach... but he's not a miracle-worker when it comes to his teams' limitations and/or flaws, and so now we need to see how well he can recruit and build teams. The 2019 class was strong, but with a small 2020 class, the 2021 class needs to be just as strong and the pieces need to complement each other well in each given season.

I think things did get to a relatively better place this season, but health issues have really thrown us off. Walker was a 3-star player out of HS, as was Duane, as was Andre, who was sub-200 in the rankings. So, with Kyle out, we are starting a a low 3-star senior, a 3-star junior, a 3-star soph with a lingering rib injury, a 4-star soph Muhammad who seems to have a pretty low ceiling on offense, and Kaleb.

Duane and Kyle have improved significantly from last season (though Duane's trying to get back in form right now). Kaleb has expanded his game a bit and is certainly much better now on defense and playing without fouling, the fouls were constant for him his first two seasons. I am not certain how fair it is to say we have a systemic problem in terms of developing players. Andre is not a high ceiling guy and has been pretty much WYSIWYG since his soph season, Luther is a guy who came in with most of his reputation being that he will defend, and that's what he does. Ahrens, another low ceiling guy who is just a soph and also didn't have an off-season due to back injury. What would Jallow have looked like this season, one of the four upperclassmen who started in the program? Etc. I am not making excuses for Holtmann or his staff, I just think it's unfair to say that there has been no development when I do think there has been development in areas where there was potential for that. Outside of that, I just don't think we have enough to go on.

Next season I think the talent/experience balance will finally be close to where Holtmann wants it but I think there is going to be a big adjustment for everyone if Kaleb's gone--which seems to be Kaleb's plan--because we will not have much post scoring to speak of and Kaleb's the only guy right now that can consistently manufacture his own points. I have seen some people mention that they can't wait for both Wessons to be gone and I have to think that they're taking Kaleb for granted a bit too much. The guy had an efficient double-double last night with 20-plus points while every single other player on our team struggled to score.

I like Holtmann a lot. He may not be the perfect game coach--and there are a few times I am left scratching my head at his choices or why his teams keep doing certain things--but I do think he's a solid head coach in just about every area you could ask for. I think he is trying to build the right kind of culture and program for OSU and I do think he will create something that is consistent on some level, I am just not sure what the ceiling of that consistency will be.

At Butler he had some teams where the expectations weren't super high but he got them to the Round of 32 for 2 years and S16 in his third year, with some good wins on the way to that. Here he came in and no one expected anything, freakin' Dakich was in our rotation, and we did have some bumps in the OOC but then rolled in the B1G and the only thing that really soured the end of the season was having to play a PSU team three times who absolutely had our number. We got a bad match-up in the Round of 32, having to play Gonzaga again, but it was a good game and no shame in the loss. Last season again the expectations weren't high because we had lost what was easily our two best players, we had a fool's gold non-conference schedule but took care of business except for a Cuse loss that raised some red flags, and then the red flags became blaring alarms as we struggled in pretty ugly fashion through conference play but still managing to limp our way into the Dance and back to the Round of 32, once again.

So is Holtmann a Round of 32 coach on average, with a S16 thrown in every third or fourth season? Is the B1G a bad fit of a conference for him (his first season here would seem to counterpoint that, except the conference was weak that year and we had a pretty easy path within it)? We just don't know right now. Obviously, the hope is that Holtmann will continue to find his footing at OSU and in the B1G as the players he has brought here mature within his program, playing in this conference. Due to the timing of Holtmann's hire, he had to kind of throw that 2018 class together in just a few months right after finalizing the 2017 class (adding Dakich, flipping Young over, and getting Jallow to reclassify), and so the 2018 class might not have been quite the foundational class it needed to be with Ledee transferring, Ahrens' limitations and setbacks, and a question mark on whether Luther can become a consistent positive of some sort on offense.

I like Eugene Brown III a lot but he's one guy and he's a wing player and unless his handles develop a lot, he's a 6'6 Kam Williams. Something I think we needed to add because I think we needed an athletic shooter with length and good two-way potential, but I dunno that he will become a dynamic star here. Zed Key is a blue collar guy inside. Again, we need to add an interior player with Kaleb's imminent departure, but there is a reason Zed is not ranked higher and it's because the ceiling isn't a whole lot higher than the floor (but thankfully the floor is fairly high as far as floors go).

This puts a lot of pressure of the 2021 class. Unless our development really is bad, I don't know how much the 2019 class sticks around. For as bad as he's been the past couple games, I still think Carton is a 2-year player, max 3. Liddell could be gone in 2 or 3, though obviously he's got a long ways to go. Gaffney, I guess my big concern there is he finds enough of a role not to transfer before reaching his potential. I think the role easily could have been there for him next season but Sueing and a Jallow redshirt complicates matters. Not to forget Diallo but he's a long-term project and realistically, not a difference-maker any sooner than his upperclassmen years. I think the 2021 class needs to be a 5-man class and it needs to be all quality. Etzler has got a lot of potential but he needs to start producing. We need Meechie to get fully healthy and pick up where he left off in terms of his development. Would love to add Branham or someone close to his quality. Probably need another lead guard but might have to go the grad transfer route if DJ will be gone (and if we do that then we're going to need one of the absolute best grad transfer guards available, on top of needing, like, three top-notch guards in the 2022 class as Duane and Luther will be gone-zo). Need to get a really high quality big like Bediako or Furst or Duncomb or Reid. So yeah, the 2021 class is crucial and while I liked the commitments at the time, it is starting to feel a little concerning that two of the spots are already taken if a Jallow redshirt takes away a spot and if Etzler doesn't make strides and Meechie's injury setback hinders his development too much. We will just have to see what happens.

I, for one, am willing to be patient. I am willing not to set my expectations super high any time soon. Even for all the things that aren't necessarily ideal, I do think Holtmann's about as good a bet as any we could make right now. There's not a name out there at this point in time that I KNOW would do a better job or be a better long-term fit.

I don't know if Holtmann is "the answer," but I think he can be.
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Could you please elaborate more on this topic?
 
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WTF

No seriously - WTF!

I would swap any air head fans who are questioning Holtman for an equal size group of Harbaugh worshippers from MgoBlog in a heartbeat.

We have one of the best coaches in the country and because a couple of Freshmen play two games like they are Freshmen we are ready to throw him under the bus?

WT everloving F?
 
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OSU_Buckguy said:
. i don't expect the turnover issue will be fixed
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This is the one issue which I would think should be the easiest to fix during the course of the season. It is now like shooting or defending because it has nothing to do with legs getting tired or anything else physically… Unless their minds get tired during the course of the season. We commit some very strange a.k.a. easy turnovers.
 
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