Game Thread 2015 Sugar Bowl: (1) Alabama vs. (4) Ohio State, Jan 1st @ 8:30p ET, ESPN (civilized thread)

[kujirakira]

I digress. My post was trying to convey that donating to the athletic department helps with the success of athletics, which in turn creates more revenue. This trickles down to more academic scholarships, which it does. I tried to be clear on that. i.e "trickle down". You have no idea how they matk donations to the AD. At the end of the day, its revenue. Do you troll your own message board often? Seems like all you come on here to do is argue with every poster that isn't in your kuji fan club. Try conversing without being confrontational. It's quite a bit more welcoming that way.

As all your sources have demonstrated, it creates more revenue for the athletic department. Salaries for staff and benefits to student athletes have doubled. And of course there was that bit about paying off Saban's mortgage.
NTTAWWT.

I liked your attempt to "shame" Ohio State too by highlighting that Alabama's AD gives more to the school than Ohio State's AD (6.5mil for Bama, 5mil for OSU). Nobody has criticized anyone for choosing to donate to Alabama's AD instead of other programs, but since you went down that route... I'll make it clear why Ohio State's Athletic Department doesn't need to contribute a paltry percentage back to other funds: Ohio State has 500,000 dues paying alumni members who directly support the primary facilities and mission of the University, while we know Alabama has closer to 7% of that number (despite a comparably large alumni base in the hundreds of thousands).
I'm quite certain Ohio State makes up the paltry $1.5mil difference between the ADs contributions by a factor with several zeroes in it.

 

[AuTX Buckeye]

Skewed by three games. MSU does not run up the score.

MSU was very consistent and ranked #1 til they lost to bama on the road. They are a fantastic team.

skewed by playing teams with a pulse on D... 34 against LSU and 38 against barn who are decent teams.. but no credit for Vandy, Kentucky, Southern Miss, UAB, South Alabama, Aggy, UTM (who the fuck),

 

[kujirakira]

Skewed by three games. MSU does not run up the score.

MSU was very consistent and ranked #1 til they lost to bama on the road. They are a fantastic team.

Neither do we. Cardale played the entire 2nd half against Illinois, and most of the 4th quarter against most opponents.

 

[BayBuck]

Well, here you go. I guess Forbes is spewing smoke and mirrors too? Our athletic department spends more on academic scholarships than OSU's does. I found that surprising given your revenues are around the same as ours if not a little higher.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissm...e-teams-2013-texas-longhorns-cant-be-stopped/

OSU has a $3B+ endowment, Alabama's is less than $1B. Even giving back some $$ to the general academic fund, Alabama's athletic dept has at least as recently as 2012 been subsidized by the university, which is not the case at OSU. This is an old conversation at this point, but to me all those SEC "giving back to the university" numbers look like shell-games: the notion that athletic success has a positive impact on a school academically has been pretty well debunked. Okay, maybe there's an extra set of academic scholarships (or faculty endowments) that bear the AD's signature, but that is probably outweighed by ongoing the reinvestment required to keep growing football programs and athletic departments.

 

[SECorBust]

Just think. What if Ole Miss had a great QB. They could have been undefeated. Thats the position that killed them this year.

Good bo bad bo.

 

[LordJeffBuck]

I think changes in total population distribution are a small-to-negligible factor in the increased strength of southeastern football compared to midwestern football over the past 50-60 years.

In your opinion, what is the biggest factor then?

I know correlation does not equal causation but the population shift to the South seems like a damn good reason for the increased power of football in that part of the country. Statistically they are just bound to have more good players than they did 40 years ago.

Population shift is one major factor, to be sure.

Desegregation is another. Here's a list of when the original SEC programs became desegregated:

Tennessee: 1967
Auburn: 1969
Florida: 1969
Vanderbilt: 1969
Mississippi State: 1969
South Carolina: 1969
Alabama: 1970
Georgia: 1970
LSU: 1971
Ole Miss: 1971

Now here's a list of players (perhaps incomplete) who were in high school in the deep south during the era of segregation, who went to historically black colleges, and who are now in the NFL Hall of Fame:

John Stallworth (AL) Alabama A+M
Larry Little (FL) Bethune-Cookman
"Bullet Bob" Hayes (FL) Florida A+M
Willie Brown (MS) Grambling
Buck Buchanan (AL) Grambling
Willie Davis (AR) Grambling
Charlie Joiner (LA) Grambling
Lem Barney (MS) Jackson State
Walter Payton (MS) Jackson State
Jackie Slater (MS) Jackson State
Art Shell (SC) Maryland-Eastern Shore
Ken Houston (TX) Prairie View
Harry Carson (SC) South Carolina State
Deacon Jones (SC) South Carolina State
Mel Blount (GA) Southern

That's just the Hall of Famers. Now add in star players like Ken Riley, Harold Carmichael, Ed "Too Tall" Jones, Jethro Pugh, Raymond Chester, Claude Humphrey, Al Beauchamp, Barney Chavous, Ken Ellis, Isiah Robertson, Sam Adams, Henry Lawrence, Nemiah Wilson, John Gilliam, Otis Taylor, Rayfield Wright, Verlon Biggs, Essex Johnson, Gary "Big Hands" Johnson, Carl "Big Daddy" Hairston, Emerson Boozer, Dick Westmoreland, Glen Edwards, and Robert Brazile.

Now add in literally dozens more players who had careers in the NFL.

That's an awful lot of talent to leave standing on the other side of the schoolhouse door.

It's no wonder that the SEC schools in particular, and southern schools in general, developed more powerful football programs after desegregation.

 

[Gcashwell]

Neither do we. Cardale played the entire 2nd half against Illinois, and most of the 4th quarter against most opponents.

66-0 vs Kent state
52-24 Maryland
55-14 Illinois.

It's still scoring tons of points against poor competition. It's meaningless

Bama put up 55 on auburn because the D was terrible.

I still don't see how you don't like being compared to the offense of a highly rated team with a bruising qb that gave people fits.

 

[bigdog3300]

In Columbus? 97.1 The Fan

Is there a good amount of OSU talk? The Fan in Cleveland is non stop Browns/Manziel talk and I can't take it anymore. That and Chuck Booms is the worst host I've ever heard.

 

[kujirakira]

OSU has a $3B+ endowment, Alabama's is less than $1B. Even giving back some $$ to the general academic fund, Alabama's athletic dept has at least as recently as 2012 been subsidized by the university, which is not the case at OSU. This is an old conversation at this point, but to me all those SEC "giving back to the university" numbers look like shell-games: the notion that athletic success has a positive impact on a school academically has been pretty well debunked. Okay, maybe there's an extra set of academic scholarships (or faculty endowments) that bear the AD's signature, but that is probably outweighed by ongoing the reinvestment required to keep growing football programs and athletic departments.

I think where they get lost is that it helps the University's bottom line.
Athletics are an outstanding marketing tool, brand recognition, etc. They do directly contribute to increased visibility in the region, or even nationally. And in that sense are quite advantageous and lucrative for Universities competing for ever-increasing numbers of gullible teenagers getting sucked into student loans.
But any argument that they contribute to the academic standing, quality of education, etc. would have to be extremely nuanced and likely full of shit.

 

[shiloh]

Just think. What if Ole Miss had a great QB. They could have been undefeated. Thats the position that killed them this year.

Just think, if Ohio State wasn't down to their 3rd string quarterback, they could be undefeated too. Although, Braxton Miller would have still been been behind a very inexperienced OL in game 2 vs VT.

Ah, the what if game ...

btw, I'm not trying to be confrontational. What if Woody Hayes ... ok, I could write a book and several have been written.

We now return you to Ohio vs Alabama.

 

[kujirakira]

66-0 vs Kent state
52-24 Maryland
55-14 Illinois.

It's still scoring tons of points against poor competition. It's meaningless

Bama put up 55 on auburn because the D was terrible.

Want me to apologize for the 2nd and 3rd team offense?
Actually it gets to my point about 10 skill position players... and back to why I don't think Miss St. resembles this offense. We're 2 deep at every one of the skill positions with practically no drop off. Our leading receiver has spent most of the season listed as 2nd string (maybe even all? I haven't paid attention to official depth charts since MSU.)
Dak either doesn't have weapons or struggles to get the ball in their hands. Wilson is their only skill player that even remotely interests me.
As for Heisman... I remember CBS talking "Heisman moment" about a wide open pass to an uncovered receiver against Arky... I about busted a guy listening to that drivel. He's in the same class as Gunner Kiel and Kenny Hill... the latter another joke that'd never be mentioned in the same breath as the Heisman if not for the SECSECSEC deep throating.

 

[Enduro R]

OSU has a $3B+ endowment, Alabama's is less than $1B. Even giving back some $$ to the general academic fund, Alabama's athletic dept has at least as recently as 2012 been subsidized by the university, which is not the case at OSU. This is an old conversation at this point, but to me all those SEC "giving back to the university" numbers look like shell-games: the notion that athletic success has a positive impact on a school academically has been pretty well debunked. Okay, maybe there's an extra set of academic scholarships (or faculty endowments) that bear the AD's signature, but that is probably outweighed by ongoing the reinvestment required to keep growing football programs and athletic departments.

I agree that the moneys that make it to non-athletic scholarships pale in comparison to the re-investment into the programs. Thats a given. Further, I don't believe that a successful football team or any other sports department has an impact on the actual academics. Only access to them. You can also research and see that when a schools athletics are successful, enrollment increases. Crazy but true.

 

[Gcashwell]

Want me to apologize for the 2nd and 3rd team offense?
Actually it gets to my point about 10 skill position players... and back to why I don't think Miss St. resembles this offense. We're 2 deep at every one of the skill positions with practically no drop off. Our leading receiver has spent most of the season listed as 2nd string (maybe even all? I haven't paid attention to official depth charts since MSU.)
Dak either doesn't have weapons or struggles to get the ball in their hands. Wilson is their only skill player that even remotely interests me.
As for Heisman... I remember CBS talking "Heisman moment" about a wide open pass to an uncovered receiver against Arky... I about busted a guy listening to that drivel. He's in the same class as Gunner Kiel and Kenny Hill... the latter another joke that'd never be mentioned in the same breath as the Heisman if not for the SECSECSEC deep throating.

We heard about Kenny hill for one week. That's it.
I'm not blaming anybody for scoring points. I'M saying ppg is easily skewed.

MSU plays starters and backups interchangeably on defense. Have you watched them play? I'm trying to give OSU a compliment.

 

[Enduro R]

As all your sources have demonstrated, it creates more revenue for the athletic department. Salaries for staff and benefits to student athletes have doubled. And of course there was that bit about paying off Saban's mortgage.
NTTAWWT.

I liked your attempt to "shame" Ohio State too by highlighting that Alabama's AD gives more to the school than Ohio State's AD (6.5mil for Bama, 5mil for OSU). Nobody has criticized anyone for choosing to donate to Alabama's AD instead of other programs, but since you went down that route... I'll make it clear why Ohio State's Athletic Department doesn't need to contribute a paltry percentage back to other funds: Ohio State has 500,000 dues paying alumni members who directly support the primary facilities and mission of the University, while we know Alabama has closer to 7% of that number (despite a comparably large alumni base in the hundreds of thousands).
I'm quite certain Ohio State makes up the paltry $1.5mil difference between the ADs contributions by a factor with several zeroes in it.

I haven't attempted to shame anyone or any program since I have been here. I noted I was surprised given that the numbers for OSU were higher as far as revenues. From what I know about your school and its conference, its seems like a great institution. There are fans who like to converse and learn about each other institutions and teams. And then there are those, like yourself, that believe the entire purpose of a message board is to have a dick measuring contest. Good thing you don't represent the fan base.

 

[kujirakira]

We heard about Kenny hill for one week. That's it.
I'm not blaming anybody for scoring points. I'M saying ppg is easily skewed.

MSU plays starters and backups interchangeably on defense. Have you watched them play? I'm trying to give OSU a compliment.

We're comparing Miss St. and OSU's offenses.
I don't see it. Everything Miss St. does goes through Dak and he's not Heisman material regardless how desperately some outlets tried to push that agenda. Ohio State is the exact opposite - the QB's job isn't to win the game, we lost when we tried that. His job is to distribute and let all the young playmakers Urban has brought in do their thing. If Cardale comes out trying to play like Dak, relying on yards on the ground and trying to force big plays by himself... it's going to be a long night.

Their D has performed a lot better than ours throughout the course of the year, but that's neither here nor there.
IMO both Alabama and Ohio State's offenses have too many weapons to be consistently stopped so long as they execute. Turnovers, silly PAC officiating, etc. will probably decide this game.