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2012 Defense Discussion

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lvbuckeye;2236724; said:
that article makes me wonder why the staff is trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. these kids were recruited to run a cover-2 (or was it 3? i forget) scheme.
i think half the issue lies in the responsibilities being switched in cover-4. they are reading and reacting as if they are still in cover-2 (or 3), which leads directly to them being out of position. this compounds the defensive speed issues because they have to stop and think about what they are supposed to do now. late reactions multiplied by reacting the wrong direction is a recipe for disaster.

switch back to cover-2 (or 3), please.
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I believe this is the norm during a coaching or coordinator transition -- you may lose your first line of backups because they want a fresh start elsewhere. The starters all think they can adjust (from Cover 2/3) with limited difficulty and the incoming freshmen are built for the new scheme (Cover 4).

You're right in saying our starters are square pegs...some are out-thinking themselves despite not playing in a complex scheme, some just don't have the skillset to play the 4. Your backups are true freshmen instead of RS sophomores, and they're playing like true freshmen. So they're oval pegs right now instead round, but they were recruited because the staff thinks they can be round.

Stepping back to a cover 2/3 is (IMO) a bit short-sighted. I'm disappointed that some great Buckeyes will have subpar stats this year, but NFL decision makers will see past that. To me, what is most important is the tutoring of the 22 true sophomores/RS freshman/true freshman we have on defense. Every minute in the film room or practice field or in an actual game needs to immerse them in what they were brought to Columbus to do -- play cover 4. In a no-bowl year, I don't think asking the kids to learn a second system is a sound strategy. Again, it stinks that the seniors are getting a bit of a raw deal, but long-term future needs to be considered. The kids need to know Cover 4 backwards and forwards when they're expected to be leaders on a national championship contending team next year. They won't get that experience if it isn't taught.

That being said, Fickell having play-call responsibilities seems to be Meyer's attempt to stay squarely in the middle -- Luke knows his personnel better than anyone, while Withers has a more thorough knowledge of Cover 4. I don't have as much experience as most on here, but it seems the coaches may have failed in their overestimation of the seniors ability to break habits and adjust to a different scheme. Without a strong backup core (Bell, Newsome, Dom Clarke, etc.), the choices are to turn to your freshmen or get creative with your groupings when injuries hit. With Boren and now Williams to LB and Spence to DE, the group is showing a willingness to put the best 11 guys on the field while still sticking to their long-term plan. I think the staff should be commended for thinking outside the box, though their earlier missteps necessitated it.

Finally, worst case scenario in my mind? Clearing the defensive coaching staff and installing another new philosophy. This might be a byproduct of being a Browns fan, but I'm very weary of being trigger-happy and hitting the reset button in a sport like this. If there is another fresh install, you just made the past twelve months damn near a waste for your kids, and that's assuming they all have the physical ability to run the new system. In reality, you could fall into a self-perpetuating cycle where a lot of depth is caught in the coaching transition and you're left with starters and then 11 true freshman participating. The problem if this happens next year with OSU is that our leaders (Shazier/Bryant, hopefully 1/52 stay) will be learning a third system. How can they lead when they're just learning? Fortunately, I think Meyer (and most fans) recognize that this is a two year learning process, not one that can be picked up in ten months. Thus, I'd be surprised to see firings...maybe Withers takes over the calls.

Wall of Text / TL;DR
 
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I think too much is being put into having a new coverage as far as the defenses weakness go.

Does running a cover 4 prevent the coaches from changing what they're doing when the defense is being exploited? Does it hinder us from adjusting? The simple answer is NO.

I get that maybe our current defensive players are not suited to play the style of defense our coaches may want. However, who on offense (outside of #5) has/had the skill set to run the type of offense we wanted to back in the winter/spring? None of those players were recruited to run this type of system and it's not like we hit gold with a game breaking recruit either. Sure Braxton will make a lot of bad plays look good but Chopped Liver John Simon, John Hankins, Nate Williams, and Brad Robey are not.

Spare me the "we dont have the horses" to run this type of system. Then you know what? don't run the FULL system at this time until you do. Implement some of it but make sure you put your current talent in a position to do well. What it boils down to for me is our offensive coaching staff>defensive coaching staff.

If our offense was doing the equivalent of what our defense has done to this point we would be running Corey Brown/Devin Smith like they were Percy Harvin. Because after all that's truely Urban's system and a main staple at that as well. However, the offensive staff realizes we don't have that type of talent (at this point) and instead puts the 11 on offense in position to be successful because they know their strengths and they play to them.

Doesn't mean we can't run cover 4 the majority of the time even but at the end of the year if we're as bad as we are now on defense the excuse "yeah but we didn't have the talent to run our system" then that's a shame because there is enough talent on this defense to be in the top 3 of the big ten.

I also understand the importance of not always have consistent turnover on a coaching staff but lets be honest with ourselves. If our defense keeps this pace I highly doubt neither the scheme or some of the coaches are around. I hope I'm wrong but you can hear and tell just how Upset Urban is at how poorly they are on defense.
 
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I don't like the system even when it's played well. The cover 4 is a nice change of pace D that can be used if a team is going vertical a lot or you need some safety help in the run game. Yet it should not be the basis of the system IMO. I would take the cover 2 any day of the week over cover 4 for a base defense. At least that would allow the corners to play closer and more aggressive, and this team should be able to stop the run with the front 6 or 7. That should be expected from an Ohio State defense. Heck, some simple man to man with a single high safety would be nice to see. It's not like it takes a ton to learn, and would at least change things up instead of the same thing over and over again. It would also give the kids a chance to play without having to constantly think much.
 
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Bestbuck36;2236782; said:
Attack on defense and score on offense.

A direct response to Herman or whomever's it was on the goal line to pass when we were up 14, kept Indiana in the game. If we go up 21 instead of allowing them to get closer, they go to sleep instead of finding more plays in their pockets.


Attack teams on defense, make your mistakes and live with them through effort. Keep the pressure on other teams by continuing to score. Simple football strategy really.
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THIS....pound Hyde on 2nd and goal from the 2 or run a QB lead type of play.
 
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the thing is, even with cover-4 being all the rage, and 'equally prepared to stop power run or spread pass,' the Buckeyes have consistently had the best or been among the best defenses in the country for the last decade running cover-2. did the personnel suddenly lose its ability to play base defense? if so, why?

i know that last year had some breakdowns. but the defense last year was NO WHERE near as bad as it is this year. maybe because the kids weren't always reacting the wrong way, and having to stop and think?

also re: the offense adapting to the strengths of the players, why isn't the D doing the same? or are they incapable? having a starting DE and a starting FB playing LB freaks me out.
 
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lvbuckeye;2237074; said:
the thing is, even with cover-4 being all the rage, and 'equally prepared to stop power run or spread pass,' the Buckeyes have consistently had the best or been among the best defenses in the country for the last decade running cover-2. did the personnel suddenly lose its ability to play base defense? if so, why?

i know that last year had some breakdowns. but the defense last year was NO WHERE near as bad as it is this year. maybe because the kids weren't always reacting the wrong way, and having to stop and think?

also re: the offense adapting to the strengths of the players, why isn't the D doing the same? or are they incapable? having a starting DE and a starting FB playing LB freaks me out.
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I thought it was speculated that Meyer wanted the cover 4 installed and therefore no, the defense isn't focused on adapting the defense to this year's player's strengths, but instead taking this year to prepare the young guys for running cover 4 the next couple of years. You'd think there'd be a better way to do it though without gutting the quality of the D. But I guess it'd be like installing the current offense with Boeckman at the helm. It would be a struggle.

When reading the breakdown by Ross, it seemed to boil down to players just not understanding and reacting in the system right now as well as some of the starters just not being good fits for this scheme. Part of it is the coaching as well, since they seem to be confused at times when adjustments need to be made.

Honestly, I'm not completely sure why the change had to be made either. OSU had its problems in the past when playing elite offenses in big games, but I think a lot of that had to do with the way the DL was constructed and them not able to get a lot of pressure on the QB except for select years. I thought the changing in recruitment of the DL and the way they would play the DL would help a lot and solve a lot of the problems of the past. I guess the coaches thought that more needed to change.
 
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What I want to know is how Roby was the only one to recognize the screen passes?

He fought through three blockers and by that time was out of position to make the tackle.

I love, however, how they destroyed the option play near the end. Simon took out the RB and instantly 4 guys went after the QB for a loss.
 
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Coqui;2240123; said:
What I want to know is how Roby was the only one to recognize the screen passes?

He fought through three blockers and by that time was out of position to make the tackle.

I love, however, how they destroyed the option play near the end. Simon took out the RB and instantly 4 guys went after the QB for a loss.
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Agreed 100% with everything. It was really frustrating that no one else seems to be able to recognize and/or react to the screens...awesome effort by Roby on that one though.

And that was fantastic as well. Lets hope we see more of that.
 
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No matter what the coverage, even cover zero, someone should be deeper than the deepest offensive man on the field. 5 under 2 deep is a sound coverage with man under and two deep safeties. Cover 4 means that the deepest cover men have four quadrants and need to be the deep cover men. Is this a combo cover out of cover 4? Then all the conventional rules are a moot point. Even with a zone blitz, defenders need to be deepest man.

First play from scrimmage needs to be solid...ooops all plays from scrimmage need to be solid. This tells me that this is a coaching issue. Ohio State was not a very well coached team for much of the game. But they were a superior coached team for the last minute and change and overtime.

Never put your players in a position to fail.
 
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Two big keys to the game for us on defense.

1 - no more injuries. We cant have any injuries to pile on to the ones we already have. The Dline is the only one with depth but it appears some of the depth we had earlier isnt getting the playing time they did earlier.

2 - Another week of experience and knowledge for Nate Williams at OLB. He and Shazier actually make a nice compliment of speed and aggressiveness at LB. I wish they would have put him there at the beginning of the year and allowed Noah Spence to go balls out from the get go. Show up this game and do it. McGloin will have 0 time to throw if we attack him with Spence, Simon and Big Hank. 3 step drops is all they'll have time for and throw in the occasional blitz from Shazier or Williams and we should be ok as long as the MLB holds up against the run.

I, for one, like our chances. GO BUCKS!!!
 
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