2010 TSUN arguments & shenanigans (in-season)

[buckeyemania11]

Some perspective;

-Four of their nine NC's are over 100 years old.

-7 of the 9 were closer to the American Civil War than they are to 2010

-4 of the 9 are older than the Cubs last World Series victory

Some historical milestones that coincide with scUM NC's;

1901: Guglielmo Marconi receives the first trans-Atlantic radio signal, sent from Poldhu in England to Newfoundland, Canada; it is the letter "S" in Morse.

1902: A new car speed record of 74 mph is set in Nice, France, by Leon Serpollet.

1903: Orville Wright flies an aircraft with a petrol engine at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina in the first documented, successful, controlled, powered, heavier-than-air flight.

1904: U.S. Army engineers begin work on The Panama Canal.

also, these were the teams they were "competing" against in the early 1900s

http://www.phys.utk.edu/sorensen/cfr/cfr/Output/1901/CF_1901_Conferences.html

http://www.phys.utk.edu/sorensen/cfr/cfr/Output/1902/CF_1902_Conferences.html

http://www.phys.utk.edu/sorensen/cfr/cfr/Output/1903/CF_1903_Conferences.html

http://www.phys.utk.edu/sorensen/cfr/cfr/Output/1904/CF_1904_Conferences.html


nothing says big time football like Dickinson College and Swarthmore College

 

[Oh8ch]

Michigan is only behind Princeton (28) and Yale (27), so Michigan has more officially recognized national championships than any other team still playing in the bowl subdivision. Ohio State only has 13 hence all of the excuses why ours don't count.

If I understand correctly this is a serious post comparing Michigan to Princeton and Yale.

Princeton and Yale.

Go Blue!

 

[BrutusBobcat]

Notice that Michigan went downhill as a "national power" once Ohio Stadium was completed (1922)? Woody finished the job, and Tress is hiding the body.

 

[brutus2002]

Michigan has 3 titles that are recognized. They have never won the coaches or the BCS...they have never won an undisputed NC in their historys.

1901-1904...the Harvard Club of Sports History for Geeks and Dweebs don't count as the annointing authority.

BTW The NCAA has never presented a National Championship Trophy to anybody...so go smoke some more of that carzy stuff you've been smokin ok...

 

[Beaver]

Posted: Today*8:02*AM
Thu AM TJBlog: A guy I know*
A guy I know
*Big-time, long-time follower of college football on the West Coast, not a Michigan fan, etc.
*He makes these points on the Michigan situation.
*-- you have a new coach brought in to play spread at a famous football school that has been dropback for 20+ years.
-- talent level there is lower than one'd expect, but there's a Heisman-potential drop-back QB (who followed another AA-level drop-back QB, etc) ... it's a school that 'made hay' on bringing in top-flight drop-back QBs. But, the new guy is a spread QB, so this Heisman-potential drop-back QB leaves.
-- consequently, things fall back to a 3 win season. There'd been a 7-5 season a couple years previous ... but 3 is a shocker.
-- new team has defensive problems ... the previous defense hadn't been playing to a 'Michigan Defense' level anyway (it had one good year recently, but got shredded in the Rose Bowl), but this was worse ... couldn't get a DC in that 'fit'.
-- there's a 'cultural fit' issue, which ends up being a huge deal, which is a head-scratcher for this guy ... seems very weird to him.
-- there's a minor-major NCAA thing that the new coach gets tagged with, even tho the NCAA basically clears the coach, while the old Head of Compliance and Head of Compliance for Football are quietly fired...
*-- All that said ... new coach's team wins 3, then 5, then 7 ... and finds a soph run-pass QB that wins Big Ten POY and is a potential Heisman winner in the future ... seems a no-brainer that the coach now has things 'under way' to a return to greatness ... mainly because of this run-pass QB-sensation.
*--*However ... this coach has not beaten U-M's Main Two Rivals in his tenure, and did not put up a good battle against either in 2010 ... coaches have been fired for this at other schools (remember Earl Bruce? John Cooper?)
*--*All that said ... new coach's team wins 3, then 5, then 7 ... and finds a soph run-pass QB that wins Big Ten POY and is a potential Heisman winner in the future ... seems a no-brainer that the coach now has things 'under way' to a return to greatness ... mainly because of this run-pass QB-sensation.
*--*Then there's this 'X-Factor' ... a famous former-U-M-QB is the Hottest Coach in the USA in 2010 ... runs a 'traditional U-M' drop-back system ... and has a senior QB so it's a good time for him to leave his old job before he has to rebuild there ...
*--*All that said ... new coach's team wins 3, then 5, then 7 ... and finds a soph run-pass QB that wins Big Ten POY and is a potential Heisman winner in the future ... seems a no-brainer that the coach now has things 'under way' to a return to greatness ... mainly because of this run-pass QB-sensation.
*--*Then there's a new AD hired who has close ties with this Hottest Coach in the USA in 2010, he was coached at U-M by this Hottest Coach's dad ...
*--*All that said ... new coach's team wins 3, then 5, then 7 ... and finds a soph run-pass QB that wins Big Ten POY and is a potential Heisman winner in the future ... seems a no-brainer that the coach now has things 'under way' to a return to greatness ... mainly because of this run-pass QB-sensation.
***My friend says it boils down to this: do you re-roll the dice on the NEW-new guy, when he'll have to find a* QB and rebuild a drop-back system? Or do you stick with the OLD-new guy for another year, who has a Heisman-potential run-pass QB?
*To him it looks like a close-ish call, but in the end is a no-brainer ... you stick with what you have for one more year. Heisman-potential QBs dont' grow on trees.
*However, he can see where the other decision might be made, mainly because of the close-ties with the new-AD and the potential NEW-new Hottest Coach in the USA.
*Still ... to him it looks like a close-ish call, but in the end is a no-brainer ... you stick with what you have for one more year but replace the D-coach/coaches.* Sports is always a gamble, but this seams like the no-brainer bet to make -- to him.

Luck is a rs sophomore, underachieving by 2 wins twice then getting blown out against your biggeat rivals and almost every quality opponent in yr 3 is not a sign of progress let alone impending greatness.

To become great requires defense, something rr has not shown the ability to do as a recruiter or developer. But keep pretending that defense isn't important.

There's also the stereotyping of jh, who unlike rr, will shift his offense to meet the personnel. He ran a denard friendly system at sdsu, and out of the two qbs, luck is the only onr who actually runs the read option. Denard has not learned to do it yet, he is keeping and giving based on pre snap designations.

These recklessly one sided analyses are almost verbatim from the rhetoric and excuses me beaver uses constantly. friends are generally impacts by, the biases, viewpoints and "facts" thet get in conversation. A non michigan fan would not realize that his excuses and credibility are laughable (according to beaver um doesn't lose recruits, um just cool on them refuse to cheat... Or how it took three years for tom to actually criticize rr's coaching, previously using laughable excuses like "he got bad advice" to excuse the terrible fit/hire of dc scott shafer ), so he would probably accept and import his rationale.


But many of the natives just aren't buying his pitches any longer

Luck is not a senior. *He is a RS soph. *Also, you have a top 5 QB recruit (maybe #1 QB recruit) on the roster who can play in a drop back or spread type system (Gardner). *And as to Denard, why can't he play in more of a traditional role ala Charlie Ward? *And who is to say JH would immediately switch to the system he employs at Stanford? *That isn't what he ran at San Diego. *And who is to say that Denard doesn't love Michigan and his teammates and wants to remain at the school he has spent the last two years? *Who is to say that he wouldn't be fired up to play for Jim as opposed to leaving, sitting out a year, and starting over for a completely new coaching staff? *Urban just left Florida.

It isn't a clear cut decision that you give the guy another year. *If you do so, he is still a potential lame duck and on the hottest of hot seats? *You think recruiting gets any easier or the pressure on Rich and the team lessens when it will be clear to the entire country that Rich is on a 1 year mandate to win huge? *Might just be delaying the inevitable, losing a year and making things worse. *We'd be in the same spot next year arguing over whether Rich should be retained because Hart will transfer and the next big high profile recruit will defect to another school. *These issues will arise every single year, not matter when you contemplate making a decision. *The difference being, the obvious replacement coaching candidate most likely won't be available next season.

To say that this decision is a 'no brainer' is naive.* I agree, that I've thought the exact same thing many times, "wow starting all over would be a huge risk, no matter who is at the controls".* However, it's something that anyone who runs or has ran a large business is certainly familiar with.* Short term 'pain' and difficult decisions can not be avoided due to the risk of failure.* All that can be done is to manage with the data and make the best decisions (in your own estimation) for the long-term health of the organization, and the data as we all know speaks loud and clear in this case.* Don't confuse "effort" with ACHIEVEMENT.* I am confident DB is looking at it this way and will make the obvious call here.

There are a lot of people in East Lansing, Happy Valley and Columbus who agree with your guy.

Exactly.* I love how Jim's system is always described as "traditional drop back".* Jim has molded his system to fit his players in the circumstances he's been in.*

Regardless, the problem is not the offense, because with another year I am sure it will get better in red zone efficiency, etc.

The problem, the 800 lb gorilla that gets ignored for the shiny new toy in the room, is the defense and, to a lesser extent, special teams.*

This post addresses it with one sentence, one magic wand sentence, hire a new coach and all will be fine.*

We've tried that twice already.* Perhaps it's time to think*that the issue just might run a bit deeper.

Is this the man in the mirror?

The Heisman dual threat QB is a freshman that can play in any system hasn't played much yet.* And, the biggest reason that the new guys has his job on line has nothing to do with his big ten POY.* It has to do with his defense and the overall fundamentals of his football team (turnovers, special teams, blocking, tackling, shedding blocks, etc...),*all of which are lousy and haven't improved at all.*

This person you speak of clearly doesn't understand our AD.* He came from the Bo world of football.* He's watched closely and while scheme and speed may be most important to RR, blocking/fundamentals/mistake free football is top of mind to the AD.* Your considerations are probably certainly on Dave's mind, but this person's opinion is not really taking into consideration what Dave feels is most important.

Kind of slip, sliding over the "major" issue that is keeping Michigan from competing against the Big Ten conference leaders:

Average points per game*allowed in Big Ten games:

2003 - 18.8
2004 - 22.8
2005 - 22.2
2006 - 13.0
2007 -*18.5
2008 - 33.5
2009 - 33.2
2010 - 39.3

Tom-

I am going to comment directly to you. First, I find it funny that you and others on this board rag on people for posting their opinions if they differ from yours, yet you continually do it.

Secondly, as I have stated in the past, I know many ex-players. Some wanted no part of RR from the beginning. That was just wrong and I told them that. I have been a HUGE supporter since the he got here. I recoginized the issues he was facing due to Lloyd not recruiting like he should have for the last 3 years of his tenure. Just to show you I know what I speak of, The Everson Griffin recruitiment was laughable. Ron English had worked UM into the top 2 along with USC. Had a in-home set up for Lloyd and a plane was waiting. A GA comes to LC and asks if he is ready...Lloyd says "He doesn't want to go". This little dance went on for 15 minutes until the flight window closed, LC stays in A2, and Griffin moves on. This is just one example, but I digress....

What LC left of not, the 3-9 season is UNFORGIVABLE in many ex-players eyes. Period. If RR isn't so stubborn about his O, doesn't force a DC to run the most ridiculous defensive set in the history of our program, and emphasizes ball security at all, we go 6-6. I don;t blame him at all for Mallet. The previous regime wanted him gone too. Direct quote about Mallet from a peson in the Athletic Dept, " He is the biggest A-hole to ever come thru here...and that's saying something". RR couldnt keep him, but...

Letting so many players leave...another huge issue with me and ex-players. Say what you want about players leaving under LC. The fact remains, so many kids left that could have contributed and helped. Especially on Def. It speaks to his overall style in my opinion.

What did Bill Parcells say, "You are what your record says you are"? That is a true statement. We are 7-5. Improvement from* 3-9 and 5-7. But looking at our season, a honest person would say we were much closer to 3-9 than 9-3. We weren't close in ANY of the losses and we thoroughly embarrassed in all 5. Period. We have lost to MSU 3 years in a row. UNFORGIVABLE. That cannot happen in Ann Arbor and you know it.

My point is this, I know ex-players aren't the be all, end all. But when the OVERWHELMING majority have no faith in the current coach, want no part in talkiing to him, and have seen what they feel is the tarnishing of tradition, they will make things happen.

*** All that said ... new coach's team wins 3, then 5, then 7 ... and finds a soph run-pass QB that wins Big Ten POY and is a potential Heisman winner in the future ... seems a no-brainer that the coach now has things 'under way' to a return to greatness ... mainly because of this run-pass QB-sensation ***



The problem with this perceived notion, that the program is "under way, to a return to greatness" because of one player, is an extremely shallow view.

While I personally like RR, and believe he has not had a fair go of it. I will challenge anyone to show me how this team has improved defensively or in the recruiting department.

So, in three years, RR has delivered a great offense with a poor defensive and medicore recruiting. How on earth can anyone think this will lead a return to greatness?

"What can he do"?
A.* Work harder to keep players from transferring.* Kids get pissed early in their career with playing time and how they are used.* Guys like Brian Griese, Tom Brady, Chris Perry, Larry Foote, Shawn Crable... wanted to leave the program and work had to be done to retain them, help them mature, etc...

B.* Recruit better.* In 2008 he reeled in 11 players to finish off that class.* 8 of them were on offense.* Only 1 player remains from the 3 he brought in for defense.* ONE!!!* 11 players is HALF a recruiting class and RR has ONE friggen defensive player to show for that class.* Look at the 2009 class - absolutely devoid of defensive star power and depth.* Tell me who from the 2009 class that was 100% RR's class is contributing this year at CB or FS?* People whine about the true frosh playing... well last I checked the big problem is the 3 CB's and 1 FS that we are playing (can hardly say that J. Black playing made our defense weaker).* Well where are the 2nd year sophmore players at CB and FS?* Last I checked, guys like Marlin Jackson, Leon Hall, Charles Woodson, Donovan Warren were basically studs as soph's.* We have no DB's that are even contributing, let alone "studs", from that 2009 class.* Michigan defenses should have frosh & soph 5* talents getting playing time, and playing well.* We have none.* When we*have to play a frosh DB today*it's a lowly rated 2-3* player instead of a 5*.* Huge difference.

C.* Develop players better.* Patterson, Banks, RVB, Sagasse, Mouton, Ezeh, James Rogers... were all decent 4*ish recruits.* Certainly they could have been both developed and coached up better than they were in the 3 years RR and his team has been working with them.* We can't even get these guys to play at the level of kids that are starting for Bowling Green, Northwestern or Toledo.* It's absurd.

D.* Put together a competent defensive staff that can*stick to a scheme and*recruit 5* difference makers.* Switching defenses 3 years in a row has crippled the development of our defensive players.* Having positional coaches with more say in the scheme than the DC has crippled our ability to improve.* We have no coaches on defense that are bringing in the 5* type of talents.* At an extremely critical juncture in RR's career at UM, where experienced coach Jay Hopson leaves, and our defense is in shambles, RR promotes a kid who worked with him at WV, Adam Braithewaite to be the safeties coach.* AB has never had a position of this caliber before.* Cannot walk into any recruits houses and talk about players he's coached that have made it into the NFL. I always, always, always think about this when I look at how devoid of talent our FS position is, and how Michigan was hard after Ha-sean Clinton Dix, and all I can imagine is deer in the headlights Adam Braithewaite walking into that kids house and talking about coming to Michigan to play FS and then a week or so later Nick Saban and his guys from Alabama in that same house...* gesh - no shot.* Should have hired an established "name" safeties coach IMO.* But instead we are back to having 3 WV assistants who essentially have more power over the defense than GRob, so GRob is forced to run their defense.* And GRob doesn't even recruit.* Great.

I would start with those things if it I were RR.* If it's not too late.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

how can you possibly think Luck is a senior? Even if you don't know what year he is, his first name is basically "if he comes out."

'If he comes out, Luck will be the first pick in the draft.....". His name doesn't even get mentioned without "if he comes out."

what a moron.

 

[Dryden]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k76IGLi6jWI"]YouTube - Weird Al Yankovic - Weasel Stomping Day[/ame]

 

[LordJeffBuck]

Michigan has 3 titles that are recognized. They have never won the coaches or the BCS...they have never won an undisputed NC in their historys.

1901-1904...the Harvard Club of Sports History for Geeks and Dweebs don't count as the annointing authority.

BTW The NCAA has never presented a National Championship Trophy to anybody...so go smoke some more of that carzy stuff you've been smokin ok...

Michigan has 3 titles that are recognized. They have never won the coaches or the BCS...they have never won an undisputed NC in their historys.

1901-1904...the Harvard Club of Sports History for Geeks and Dweebs don't count as the annointing authority.

BTW The NCAA has never presented a National Championship Trophy to anybody...so go smoke some more of that carzy stuff you've been smokin ok...

The NCAA does not "present" titles, but it does "recognize" titles presented by others. Once again, here's the LINK. Count 'em up - Michigan has nine (9) titles recognized by the NCAA. Yeah, most of those nine titles are ancient history, but they still count.

You're never going to win an argument if you ignore the facts and make up your own. Learn to deal with the facts, and then show them in the proper light, like this:

Some perspective;

-Four of their nine NC's are over 100 years old.

-7 of the 9 were closer to the American Civil War than they are to 2010

-4 of the 9 are older than the Cubs last World Series victory

Some historical milestones that coincide with scUM NC's;

1901: Guglielmo Marconi receives the first trans-Atlantic radio signal, sent from Poldhu in England to Newfoundland, Canada; it is the letter "S" in Morse.

1902: A new car speed record of 74 mph is set in Nice, France, by Leon Serpollet.

1903: Orville Wright flies an aircraft with a petrol engine at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina in the first documented, successful, controlled, powered, heavier-than-air flight.

1904: U.S. Army engineers begin work on The Panama Canal.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

The NCAA recognizes anything the school recognizes.....so they don't actually have 9. They should have 5.

CFBDataWarehouse used to keep track of the real championships each school deserved, but for some reason they decided to just count everything. Maybe they got sick of emails from Alabama fans.

 

[LordJeffBuck]

The NCAA recognizes anything the school recognizes.....so they don't actually have 9. They should have 5.

CFBDataWarehouse used to keep track of the real championships each school deserved, but for some reason they decided to just count everything. Maybe they got sick of emails from Alabama fans.

No, the NCAA does not. Once again, please check the LINK that I have so graciously provided for the third time. The NCAA recognizes titles from the following organizations:

AP - Associated Press
BCS - Bowl College Series
CFRA - College Football Researchers Association (pre-1936)
FWAA - Football Writers Association of America
HAF - Helms Athletic Foundation (pre-1936)
NCF - National Championship Foundation (pre-1936)
NFF - National Football Foundation/College Football Hall of Fame
UPI - United Press International
USA/CNN - USA Today/CNN
USA/ESPN - USA Today/ESPN

Michigan recognizes ELEVEN national champsionships - LINK - so obviously the NCAA does not "recognize anything the school recognizes."

 

[Dryden]

From U-M's own site:

http://bentley.umich.edu/athdept/football/misc/natchamp.htm

1901: Michigan and Harvard recognized as National Champions
UM recognized by: Billingsley, Helms, Houlgate, National Championship Foundation
Harvard recognized by; College Football Research Association
Yale recognized by: Parke Davis
1902: Michigan recognized as National Champion
UM recognized by: Billingsley, Helms, Houlgate, National Championship Foundation, Parke Davis (tie with Yale)
1903: Michigan and Princeton recognized as National Champions
UM recognized by: Billingsley, National Championship Foundation (tie with Princeton)
Princeton recognized by: Helms, Houlgate, Parke Davis, National Championship Foundation
1904: Michigan and Penn recognized as National Champions
UM recognized by: Billingsley, National Championship Foundation (tie with Penn)
Penn recognized by: Helms, Houlgate, Parke Davis, National Championship Foundation (tie)
1918: Michigan and Pittsburgh recognized as National Champions
UM recognized by: Billingsley, National Championship Foundation (tie with Pittsburgh)
Pittsburgh recognized by: Helms, Houlgate, National Championship Foundation (tie)
1923: Michigan and Illinois recognized as National Champions
UM recognized by: Billingsley, National Championship Foundation (tie with Illinois)
California recognized by: Houlgate
Illinois recognized by: Boand, Football Research, Helms, Parke Davis, National Championship Foundation (tie)
1932: Michigan and Southern California recognized as National Champions
UM recognized by: Dickinson, Parke Davis (tie with Colgate and Southern California)
Colgate recognized by Parke Davis (tie)
Southern California recognized by: Billingsley, Boand, Dunkel, Football Research, Helms, Houlgate, National Championship Foundation, Parke Davis, (tie), Poling, Williamson
1933: Michigan recognized as National Champion
UM recognized by: Billingsley, Boand, College Football Research Association, Dickinson, Helms, Houlgate, Football Research, National Championship Foundation, Parke Davis (tie with Princeton), Poling
Ohio State recognized by: Dunkel
Princeton recognized by: Parke Davis (tie)
Southern California recognized by: Williamson
1947: Michigan recognized as National Champion
UM recognized by: Associated Press *, Berryman, Billingsley, Boand, DeVold, Dunkel, Football Research, Helms (tie with Notre Dame), Houlgate, Litkenhous, National Championship Foundation, Poling
Notre Dame recognized by: Associated Press Helms (tie), Williamson
*Notre Dame was No. 1 in the final AP poll, but Michigan jumped to No. 1 after an unprecedented post-bowl poll recognized Michigan and Notre Dame as National Champions
1948: Michigan recognized as National Champion
UM recognized by: Associated Press, Berryman, Billingsley, Boand, DeVold, Dunkel, Football Research, Helms, Houlgate, Litkenhous, National Championship Foundation, Poling, Williamson
1997: Michigan and Nebraska recognized as National Champion
UM recognized by: Associated Press, National Football Foundation, Football Writer's Association
Nebraska recognized by: ESPN/USA Today Coaches' Poll

The '33 and '47 seasons are not acknowledged in the NCAA record book.

 

[brutus2002]

The NCAA does not "present" titles, but it does "recognize" titles presented by others. Once again, here's the LINK. Count 'em up - Michigan has nine (9) titles recognized by the NCAA. Yeah, most of those nine titles are ancient history, but they still count.

You're never going to win an argument if you ignore the facts and make up your own. Learn to deal with the facts, and then show them in the proper light, like this:

I'm not counting 1901-1904 no matter who made them "official". The fact remains that the NCAA can retroactively do whatever they want but they have yet to hand them a trophy for it. Your gonna trust the same guys that are letting CAM NEWTON play after his dad pimped him like a whore for hundreds of thousands...no buying it kid.

If its not post AP poll they are garbage...sorry.

Anyways until there is a tournament none of these are undisputable...they are mythical. This year nobody will receive a NCAA Championship Trophy...I mean Alabama added 6 National Titles on their program in 1980...

Those are facts...

I mean damn can we at least recognize titles from the time Cars and Planes roamed our great country...GMAFB with the 1901-1904 B.S.

 

[buxfan4life]

Is it me or do the Michigan fans on the scout board have a jilted lover complex going when it come to Pryor?

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=162&f=2019&t=6863471&p=2

Seriously, the kid can't say anything without these assholes tearing it apart and injecting their own vitrol into what he meant by it.

Good lord, get over it people!

 

[colobuck79]

Is it me or do the Michigan fans on the scout board have a jilted lover complex going when it come to Pryor?

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=162&f=2019&t=6863471&p=2

Seriously, the kid can't say anything without these assholes tearing it apart and injecting their own vitrol into what he meant by it.

Good lord, get over it people!

True, however I wish he wouldn't say those things out loud. I much preferred the Troy Smith ultra humble approach. Yeesh.

 

[buckeyemania11]

someone should notify them that Hairlice has lost more games as a starter in one season then Pryor has in 3