2010 tOSU Defense Discussion

[cbrian815]

Defense was extremely underwhelming last night. While there were some bright spots, it seems that there just wasn't enough size or depth to counter a team a physical as Wisconsin. I think that this defense is really, really, good at running around, hitting people, and shutting down a spread offense, but they just weren't physical enough in the box to stop a power offense like Wisconsin.

I raised the same problem in the special teams thread, but I honestly think we lack depth at too many key positions. As a result, the D struggles to adjust to offenses other than those that use the pass as their primary means of attack. The big, physical linebackers and D-lineman that could combat an overly physical O-line just aren't on the roster.

While fast guys with "SEC" speed are good to have, you still have to be able to slug it out when the situation calls for it. We need to at least have the depth to rotate bigger, stronger, and more physical guys into the game. Hankins is the only guy that fits that description IMO and he just wasn't enough last night.

Agreed but we only have ONE physical run team on our schedule. Iowa and Penn State dont fall into that category either. If anything Michigan State falls into that category this year. I think the staff is doing the right thing recruiting for spread teams. Wisky is a game imho that the offense(or defense/special teams) has to score points for us to consistently beat them.

P.S. everyone said special teams could cost us a game this year, last night was the perfect example of that. Go Bucks

 

[BuckeyefromPitt]

Agreed but we only have ONE physical run team on our schedule. Iowa and Penn State dont fall into that category either. If anything Michigan State falls into that category this year. I think the staff is doing the right thing recruiting for spread teams. Wisky is a game imho that the offense(or defense/special teams) has to score points for us to consistently beat them.

P.S. everyone said special teams could cost us a game this year, last night was the perfect example of that. Go Bucks

I'm not saying they need to stop recruiting for spread teams but I can't see how it would hurt them to have the option of changing personnel and getting bigger when they need to. Hankins represents our only form of personnel change to combat the run. They cannot get manhandled in the trenches and expect to win games.

 

[dragurd]

I don't think it was a problem of talent and not being able to stop a physical oline. I think it was a problem of being shell shocked and Wisconsin riding the high. If you noticed when it became 21-18 our defensive line started destroying their offensive line for the next 5-7 plays. We just couldn't make a play to get off of the field.

 

[gefootball10]

I know i'm no coach or anything, but I couldn't help but keep thinking to myself, why would we be better off putting Newsome in to replace Homan, instead of someone like bell with more beef.. Clay is a massive human being and he honestly looked bigger than all of our linebackers and just never seemed to be brought down by one man.. It's possible I missed something but I guess what I'm trying to say is why didn't we try to beef it up in the second half regardless of depth chart, knowing Clay was hammering us.

 

[RG3]

Wisconsins o line dominated our d line. Wisky was consistently on our linebackers. I thought Sweat played well. He did a good job taking on the lineman shedding the block and making the tackle. B Rolle struggled all game. Bucks corner play was weak. Chimdi was turned around on just about every pass play. I did not understand why the entire first half we gave the wisky recievers 8 to 10 yard cushions. Last week against Indiana I loved the bump and run coverage. Frustrating game, I never would of thought the D line could be smashed liked that.

 

[woofermazing]

I don't think it was a problem of talent and not being able to stop a physical oline. I think it was a problem of being shell shocked and Wisconsin riding the high. If you noticed when it became 21-18 our defensive line started destroying their offensive line for the next 5-7 plays. We just couldn't make a play to get off of the field.

I didn't see any destroying, they got no pressure on Tolzien and their running backs averaged 5.6 ypc that drive. We forced a 3rd down once, showed blitz and man coverage behind it. Tolzien audibled and threw it right at our best corner. That was the closest we got to ending the drive.

 

[fourteenandoh]

The Bucks got out-schemed on Saturday. Wiscy lined up with 2 and sometimes 3 tight ends (no fullback) to our four down lineman. I don't care how good Cam Heyward is, he isn't going to be able to beat a double team on a consistent basis. Their 8 down lineman were pushing our front four back into our linebackers. This leaves 2 guys to make the play and for the most part they were AWOL. I am talking about the safeties.

I have rewatched the game twice, and the safeties were very slow to come up and fill. I am confused why we didn't adjust by moving our linebackers. Either move them up one yard off the line to clog the gaps or back them up a few yards so Wiscy's push wasn't putting our DL in their face. At the begining of the second half when we made some plays, our linebackers were almost on the line of scrimmage. That seemed to work well. I also think we should have had the safeties within 10 yards of the line. Sometimes OJ was 15 yards or more off the line. By the time he read run, Clay was already 6 yards down the field. Obviously, this exposes us deep, but when you are getting gashed for 6 ypc I don't see what other choice you have.

I think this one is all on the coaches.

 

[BuckeyefromPitt]

Obviously, this exposes us deep, but when you are getting gashed for 6 ypc I don't see what other choice you have.

The answer to this dilemma isn't to move people and leave yourself susceptible to the big play. The answer is to not get beat in the trenches. The greatest scheme in the world will not get you anywhere if you are getting dominated in the box.

And for the record, there were times when they put additional people in the box and no benefit came of it.

 

[fourteenandoh]

The answer to this dilemma isn't to move people and leave yourself susceptible to the big play. The answer is to not get beat in the trenches. The greatest scheme in the world will not get you anywhere if you are getting dominated in the box.

And for the record, there were times when they put additional people in the box and no benefit came of it.

point 1, they had 8 down lineman to our 4. maybe you can blame the LBs, but there wan't much the DL could do.

point 2, when we had some success in the 3rd qtr we had our LBs just off the line and our safeties were up. when we stopped UW's first drive of the 2nd half we actually had 10 guys in the box!

 

[UpNorthBuckeye]

I think we could play that game over again and there's no way our D line and O line could overcome all the HGH Wisconsin was jacked on.

Watt's a freaking walk on. Looked like the roid freak out of The Program.

Sheer weight difference would not accomplish that. That was nasty.

also think we need to have a Special Teams coordinator.

 

[bucknut502]

Everyone knows that Corey Brown was moved from CB to Safety last week. Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but do you guys think that maybe the staff might be thinking of moving Hines back to the Star? I think his ability to rush the passer and play closer to the line of scrimmage fits his strengths better...

 

[BuckeyefromPitt]

point 1, they had 8 down lineman to our 4. maybe you can blame the LBs, but there wan't much the DL could do.

point 2, when we had some success in the 3rd qtr we had our LBs just off the line and our safeties were up. when we stopped UW's first drive of the 2nd half we actually had 10 guys in the box!

Response to point 1: What about if the DL forced double-teams? If any one of them required two blockers, the Wisconsin O-line wouldn't have been able to get to our LBs as easily.

Response to point 2: I haven't had a chance to rewatch the game so I will accept your analysis that there was an increase in the number of people in the box.

Wisconsin's first drive

1st and 10 at WIS 30John Clay rush for a loss of 1 yard to the Wisc 29.
2nd and 11 at WIS 29Scott Tolzien pass complete to Nick Toon for 15 yards to the Wisc 44 for a 1ST down.
1st and 10 at WIS 44James White rush for 3 yards to the Wisc 47.
2nd and 7 at WIS 47James White rush for 5 yards to the OhSt 48.
3rd and 2 at OSU 48John Clay rush for 1 yard to the OhSt 47.
4th and 1 at OSU 47Brad Nortman punt for 41 yards

Box stacked, but big play in the passing game

Wisconsin's second drive:

1st and 10 at WIS 27Scott Tolzien pass complete to Bradie Ewing for 7 yards to the Wisc 34.
2nd and 3 at WIS 34Scott Tolzien pass incomplete.
3rd and 3 at WIS 34Scott Tolzien pass complete to Nick Toon for 20 yards to the OhSt 46 for a 1ST down.
1st and 10 at OSU 46Scott Tolzien pass complete to Nick Toon for 9 yards to the OhSt 37.
2nd and 1 at OSU 37 John Clay rush for 2 yards to the OhSt 35 for a 1ST down.
1st and 10 at OSU 35John Clay rush for 3 yards to the OhSt 32.
2nd and 7 at OSU 32Scott Tolzien pass complete to James White for 9 yards to the OhSt 23 for a 1ST down.
1st and 10 at OSU 23James White rush for 6 yards to the OhSt 17.
2nd and 4 at OSU 17James White rush for 5 yards to the OhSt 12 for a 1ST down.
1st and 10 at OSU 12James White rush for 12 yards for a TOUCHDOWN

box stacked but killed by the passing attack

The results are pretty obvious...we stacked the box, they adjusted and had success in the passing game. You can't load the box and expect that to counter physical play in the trenches. While it does technically, good teams are going to pass on you. D-linemen need to eat up blockers and allow LBs to make plays. We can't do that.

 

[fourteenandoh]

Not sure where you got that first drive info from. Here is what I have

1. John Clay for 4yds
2. John Clay for 12yds
3. John Clay for 5yds
4. pass to Toon for 7yds
5. John Clay for 16yds
6. John Clay for 14yds


Here is how the teams lined up
1. UW 3 TE's 1 WR
OSU 8 in box with the safety 12yds off the line
given that they had 8 players down on the line of scrimmage 8 in the box isn't that many. gotta give them the benefit of the doubt though because it was the first play and we didn't know what to expect yet

2. UW 2 TE 2 WR (one in motion)
Homan got blown up by their guard and OJ was very slow to fill. when he did, he whiffed on the tackle giving up about 6 yards needlessly

3. 2 TE, 2 WR
We line up 7 in the box (5 down on the line) and our safety was 17 yards off the line. Homan got blown up again and so did Simon.

4. 2 TE, 2 WR
We have 8 in the box with safety 15 yards deep
They call a bubble screen rub rout which worked well for the situation. We actually defended it well considering we only had 2 on 2 out there. That was a great play there.

5. 1 TE, 1 FB, 2 WR (more of your traditional line up)
We line up in nickel with 8 in the box (really only 7 with the extra DB cheating toward the inside)

They fake the sweep and run to the side where the motion was coming from. Homan gets eaten up again.

6. same lineup as play 5

This was just a traditional run to the left. Heyward got locked up, and so did our LBs. For some inexplicable reason OJ ran to the outside (there was no fake or man in motion) and ended up getting blocked out of the play by his own guy. This allowed Clay to walk into the endzone untouched.


The passing game didn't beat us on that drive. They only threw one screen pass out into the flat. You are obviously right in that if our DL had gotten push into the backfield they could have disrupted those plays. However, the LBs weren't able to get anything done, and the safety play was very poor on that drive. Upon rewatching the game, I was very surprised at how much Homan was manhandled in the first quarter.

The other thing about that drive is that our LBs were about 3-4 yds off the line. This gave their RB room to work. When we made our second half adjustment, they were only 1 yard off the line. This clogged the gaps and created some trouble for their RBs.

 

[utgrad73]

I think we could play that game over again and there's no way our D line and O line could overcome all the HGH Wisconsin was jacked on.

Watt's a freaking walk on. Looked like the roid freak out of The Program.

Sheer weight difference would not accomplish that. That was nasty.

also think we need to have a Special Teams coordinator.

I agree with all of this and especially the last sentence. We are getting embarrassed by the not so special teams play. Too much talent on this team being wasted. A decicated ST coach would take care of this leaving the head coach to worry about other things like offensive schemes.

 

[BuckeyefromPitt]

The other thing about that drive is that our LBs were about 3-4 yds off the line. This gave their RB room to work. When we made our second half adjustment, they were only 1 yard off the line. This clogged the gaps and created some trouble for their RBs.

The point I was making (and the drives that I listed) were in reference to the second half. Totally agree with your point that they caused their RBs problems. The problem was that it left them vulnerable to the passing attack which Wisconsin used to march down the field and put points on the board in the 2nd half. Other teams will certainly see that if they can win at the line, they will cause problems for the OSU D. Had the D-line been able to create congestion at the line of scrimmage, they would not have had to put the LBs closer to the line, and the passing lanes would not have been so open.

To reemphasize, they need to create more pressure in the trenches or this defense is going to get worked by any legitimate offensive line. Does that cause problems for the Minnesotas and Michigans of the world? No. But if the stars align and they find themselves playing in any legitimate bowl game, it could be very problematic.