2009 TSUN News (football only discussion)

[fongo]

Hey Guys,

I just posted this on a Michigan board, and thought I would also share it with you. I think it puts some cracks in the "RichRod can't recruit defensive players" argument.

Please be civil. I'm a Michigan fan, but not an idiot. I always tell everyone how great Buckeyeplanet is. Don't let me down. [Btw, apparently there's gonna be some bad news coming when the details of Feagin's dismissal come out. You can be uncivil all you want, then. You'll love it].

The gist of it: In the six years between 2002 and 2007, Carr beat out OSU (OSU actually offered, or it was clearly an OSU-level player) for seven total defensive recruits, and zero in this past two years:

2002:
Gabe Watson

2003:
Woodley (probably. No OSU offer listed, though)
Burgess
Crable

2004:
Mike Massey (listed as a DE on Rivals. Played TE. Not sure how strongly you went after him. OSU offer listed on Rivals).
Will Johnson (not sure how strongly you went after him. OSU offer listed on Rivals)

2005:
James McKinney (not sure how strongly you went after him. OSU offer listed on Rivals)

2006:
None

2007:
None

In 2008, Michigan beat out OSU for Cissoko only. Carr/RichRod shared 2008, and I'm pretty sure RichRod could have gotten Cissoko. He has done well at Cass Tech, after all. I also think he could have gotten Dorian Bell, since from what I understand he favored us early "I loved michigan. Then I went to OSU. Goodbye Michigan" -- maybe he wouldn't have had a chance to love OSU if a certain someone had capitalized on the early Michigan love. Also, I think RichRod could have been more competitive for Goebel, and maybe for some other recruits.

RichRod's classes:

2009:
Campbell (no OSU offer, but he's a top caliber recruit. Look at what your own people say in the William Campbell thread)
Lalota
Turner
Emilien

2009:
Marvin Robinson

So that's 5 "wins" against OSU for defensive recruits in the brief RichRod era (1 1/2 years), and 7 "wins" for Carr in six years. I'm not counting 2008. RichRod only had a couple months to work with there. And note that Will Johnson, James McKinney and Mike Massey may have OSU offers listed, but I don't think any of them were really high on Jim Tressel's priority list. Turner was. Emilien was. Robinson was. Campbell would have been. (Not sure about Lalota). Add Craig Roh as a top-caliber defensive recruit, by the way. He had a USC offer. But I'm just looking at head-to-head battles with OSU.

So what do you think? I think Carr's reputation as a good recruiter was a bit unjustified, especially at the end. And I think the cupboard was really pretty bare when RichRod came to town.

Of course, RichRod needs *more* defensive recruits. We only have a total of 74 scholarship players right now, apparently -- we're 11 short. The good news is, that means we can probably take a full class this time. One of the reasons RichRod put the brakes on recruiting, I've heard, is that he's trying to address the offense/defense imbalance.

 

[jwinslow]

Kids like Turner, Campbell, Robinson, Klein, Bryant, Homan were bound for their respective schools. The only thing JT, RR & Lloyd had to do was not mess things up. Turner didn't even hear from RR for months (RR apparently didn't figure out how to dial midwest numbers until late spring), but the instant he did, it was over.

When I look at RR recruit, I see him pulling off a number of offensive coups. I don't see the same trend on defense. Roh is the exception to that rule, though he has some ties to UM (but is nothing like the aforementioned guys, he had to be won). Victories like Washington, Barnum, Robinson, Stokes, Lewan there are a lot of impressive head ot head battles won on offense.

On defense, I see a lot more victories won over WVU, USF, Pitt, Tenn. I see a lot of prospects that RR would have probably recruited at WVU assuming his program built off the OU win in 07. I see them going head to head with WVU for a lot of prospects. DB has been a cut above the other positional recruiting, but LB & DL leave room to be desired, at least in appearance.

There are plenty of sleepers in CFB. The backbone of our defense the last 3 years was made up of sleepers. But you'd still like to see a few more studs sprinkled in, a few head to head victories against powerhouses besides kids who were destined to be wolverines all along. You see that on offense, but on D it hasn't really turned out that way this fall.

Even with the tough season, the UM brand is still a remarkably strong one. On offense I see them pulling a big surprise out of their hat every once in awhile. In the past, Ron English could deliver a super from Cali here and there. I don't see the same caliber of recruiting there, and I can't help but wonder if having Robinson not recruit is affecting that at all

So that's 5 "wins" against OSU for defensive recruits in the brief RichRod era, and 7 "wins" for Carr in six years. Like I said, I'm not counting 2008. RichRod only had a couple months to work with there.

I'm not sure UM beat OSU for Vlad, but that's a complicated story. UM won Lalota's signature, but I'm still not convinced he's a defensive player (and that wasn't where OSU offered him to play).

 

[3074326]

How many times has OSU beat Michigan for a defensive recruit?

(This is not a rhetorical question - I figure there's someone who knows without looking. It'd take me hours. )

 

[jwinslow]

Baldwin, McVey, (Bryant), Goebel, Sweat, Hines, Clifford, Gant (similar to vlad), Coleman, Larimore, Wilson, Worthington, O'Neal, Amos, Lyons, Ginn, Gholston, Freeman, Welch, Hiley, Whitner, D'Andrea.


Looking back at those lists, OSU barely beat UM for defenders in 02 & 03, and watched studs like Crable, Burgess and others leave. it's easy to see why Carr built up his reputation, even if it languished down the stretch.

 

[fongo]

I agree with you on English. That man could recruit.

But I disagree about the other stuff. Dorian Bell, if he had gone to Michigan, would have been classified as a "can't miss" for RichRod. How many "can't miss" recruits end up going somewhere unexpected. Need I remind you about the younger Boren (although he had no choice but to go to OSU)?

OSU came back in the picture for Vlad. I've read the thread on buckeyeplanet, and that's the only conclusion one can draw. OSU may have handled the recruitment badly, but I'd be very surprised if turns out they didn't really try to get into the picture at the end. And he wasn't a gimme for RichRod -- definitely not someone who was going to Michigan unless RichRod screwed up.

LaLota: he may end up playing OL at Michigan, too. Would you not rather be LSU when it came to Barksdale than Michigan or OSU? You're right, though. I was only talking about defense, but I'd just like to point out that, on offense, RichRod beat OSU for Kevin Koger and Omameh. Neither of those were Carr's doing. Koger was wavering until the end, and it had to have been RichRod that pushed him over the top. Omameh wasn't even in the picture under Carr.

The larger point is that Carr was really not doing well at recruiting defense towards the end. The only one doing well was English, as you mention. If you go back and look, we got very few defensive "studs" in the late Carr era (Warren [This was entirely the doing of Ron English. And we lost Ronald Johnson, who if RichRod got you'd probably call a gimme], Brandon Graham [a gimme], Eugene Germany [don't know who recruited him, probably English since he was doing California], Johnny Sears [All English. Turned out to be a pothead]. That's all the "studs" between 2005 and 2007, and it's a real stretch to call Johnny Sears a stud (I'm only doing so because there were rumors that USC was going to snatch him up).

 

[fongo]

307426 [what a weird handle], I've done the looking already. At least for the past three years. It's actually quite easy to look -- just click through Rivals.

2008:
Goebel
Howard
Mobley (No UM offer, but was definitely good enough for one)
Sabino
Sweat

2009:
Bell
Bellamy
Fellows
Brown

2010:
Turner
McVey
Baldwin

 

[goblue15]

Hey Guys,

I just posted this on a Michigan board, and thought I would also share it with you. I think it puts some cracks in the "RichRod can't recruit defensive players" argument.

Please be civil. I'm a Michigan fan, but not an idiot. I always tell everyone how great Buckeyeplanet is. Don't let me down. [Btw, apparently there's gonna be some bad news coming when the details of Feagin's dismissal come out. You can be uncivil all you want, then. You'll love it].

The gist of it: In the six years between 2002 and 2007, Carr beat out OSU (OSU actually offered, or it was clearly an OSU-level player) for seven total defensive recruits, and zero in this past two years:

2002:
Gabe Watson

2003:
Woodley (probably. No OSU offer listed, though)
Burgess
Crable

2004:
Mike Massey (listed as a DE on Rivals. Played TE. Not sure how strongly you went after him. OSU offer listed on Rivals).
Will Johnson (not sure how strongly you went after him. OSU offer listed on Rivals)

2005:
James McKinney (not sure how strongly you went after him. OSU offer listed on Rivals)

2006:
None

2007:
None

In 2008, Michigan beat out OSU for Cissoko only. Carr/RichRod shared 2008, and I'm pretty sure RichRod could have gotten Cissoko. He has done well at Cass Tech, after all. I also think he could have gotten Dorian Bell, since from what I understand he favored us early "I loved michigan. Then I went to OSU. Goodbye Michigan" -- maybe he wouldn't have had a chance to love OSU if a certain someone had capitalized on the early Michigan love. Also, I think RichRod could have been more competitive for Goebel, and maybe for some other recruits.

RichRod's classes:

2009:
Campbell (no OSU offer, but he's a top caliber recruit. Look at what your own people say in the William Campbell thread)
Lalota
Turner
Emilien

2009:
Marvin Robinson

So that's 5 "wins" against OSU for defensive recruits in the brief RichRod era (1 1/2 years), and 7 "wins" for Carr in six years. I'm not counting 2008. RichRod only had a couple months to work with there. And note that Will Johnson, James McKinney and Mike Massey may have OSU offers listed, but I don't think any of them were really high on Jim Tressel's priority list. Turner was. Emilien was. Robinson was. Campbell would have been. (Not sure about Lalota). Add Craig Roh as a top-caliber defensive recruit, by the way. He had a USC offer. But I'm just looking at head-to-head battles with OSU.

So what do you think? I think Carr's reputation as a good recruiter was a bit unjustified, especially at the end. And I think the cupboard was really pretty bare when RichRod came to town.

Of course, RichRod needs *more* defensive recruits. We only have a total of 74 scholarship players right now, apparently -- we're 11 short. The good news is, that means we can probably take a full class this time. One of the reasons RichRod put the brakes on recruiting, I've heard, is that he's trying to address the offense/defense imbalance.

Not true on Feagin... rumor has it he stole from a teammate.

 

[jwinslow]

LaLota: he may end up playing OL at Michigan, too. Would you not rather be LSU when it came to Barksdale than Michigan or OSU? You're right, though. I was only talking about defense, but I'd just like to point out that, on offense, RichRod beat OSU for Kevin Koger and Omameh. Neither of those were Carr's doing. Koger was wavering until the end, and it had to have been RichRod that pushed him over the top.

OSU got played was the theme after Koger verballed, not that the opposite hasn't happened.

The larger point is that Carr was really not doing well at recruiting defense towards the end. The only one doing well was English, as you mention. If you go back and look, we got very few defensive "studs" in the Carr era (Warren [This was entirely the doing of Ron English.

Carr didn't have very strong recruiting classes before 07, but he started RR off with the verbals from Cissoko, Campbell, Fitzgerald, Martin and had Turner & Robinson poised to commit. And no, I don't really consider Campbell to be a real decommitment.

And we lost Ronald Johnson, who if RichRod got you'd probably call a gimme],

not if you've followed much USC vs UM recruiting in MI.

That's all the "studs" between 2005 and 2007, and it's a real stretch to call Johnny Sears a stud (I'm only doing so because there were rumors that USC was going to snatch him up).

Mouton was a 5-star safety english stole from USC, Texas, LSU.
Williams was a US AA & top-5 safety, even if he was a bit overrated.
Slocum was a 5-star who didn't stay qualified, despite UM trying their best, even admitting him to UM to try and get him eligible.

Looking back, on paper 06 was pretty decent, 05 & 07 weren't the best.

Carr gift wrapped an outstanding class for RR with the 2008 haul.

 

[fongo]

Not true on Feagin... rumor has it he stole from a teammate.

And that's not bad news? Stealing from teammates is pretty bad, in my book.

I actually dont' know if that's the actual news. I'm no insider. But the rumblings I hear on the michigan sites are sounding bad.

 

[fongo]

I don't know how I forgot Mouton.

Mouton: English recruit
Williams (I don't know if I would call him a "stud"): English recruit
Slocum: don't know who recruited him. Didn't play a down at Michigan. Also recruited at OL (like Lalota), but would have probably played DL.

I bet you can guess what I'm thinking right now: We should have kept English as DC!! I actually was advocating keeping the whole D-staff when RichRod came over. Change the offense, keep continuity on defense. But, alas, nobody listens to me. English was a candidate for head coach, and may have bristled at serving under another candidate, though. And he's now a head coach (Eastern Michigan), so it wouldn't have lasted long.

 

[3074326]

307426 [what a weird handle], I've done the looking already. At least for the past three years. It's actually quite easy to look -- just click through Rivals.

Good call on the Rivals thing. I sometimes (often) forget about other recruiting sites because of BP. Now I feel like an even more lazy d-bag than I did before. I wasn't really going anywhere with the question I had originally, I was just curious.

Glad you like my name. :tongue2:

/leaves discussion for those who know better

 

[fongo]

Dont' get me started on Rivals. To distill everything about a player into a picture w/ shiny stars is completely insane!

That's why I love buckeyeplanet.

 

[AuburnBuckeye]

307426 [what a weird handle]

Just call him numby. :tongue2:

 

[fongo]

Carr gift wrapped an outstanding class for RR with the 2008 haul.

I'm surprised you call 2008 "outstanding". I actually prefer the 2009 class.

Players not "gift wrapped" by Carr, and who there's no way anyone could call "gimmes":

2008:
Barnum
Feagin (grrrrr)
J.T Floyd [mixed reviews]
Odoms
Omameh
Robinson [mixed reviews]
Roundtree
Michael Shaw
Kevin Koger

Everyone without a comment next to them is getting positive early reviews (either from evidence on the field, or from insiders). The others getting positive reviews (these were either "gift wrapped" or "gimmes"): Cissoko, Fitzgerald, Khoury, Mike Martin, Stonum, McGuffie (yes, I know he left. And I know you'll make fun of him. I'd call starting your first game as a true frosh a pretty postive indication of your talent, though. And if you want to make fun of him, fine -- he's a Carr recruit). Okay, now I see why you call 2008 "outstanding"

 

[fongo]

not if you've followed much USC vs UM recruiting in MI.

*rimshot*

That hurts, though. Like rubbing salt in relatively fresh wounds. Should I bring up Ben Martin and Tennessee? And Fred Davis? Feel the pain!

But you bring up a good point. RichRod may have "lost" Nick Perry to USC in 2008. I don't know if I buy it, since Nick Perry was very tightlipped, and there's certainly no indication at all that Carr "had" him before RichRod came to town. But someone could argue that he was a "gimme" that wasn't signed.

The same could be argued about MichState recruits: Will Gholston and Mylan Hicks this year, Edwin Baker, Chris Norman and Dion Sims last year. Someone could possibly argue that one or two of those would have been "gimmes" under Carr. I doubt it. Carr lost some big recruits to MSU, too. It happens.