2009 BB HOF: Henderson and Rice

[Bucklion]

Rickey Henderson and Jim Rice are the newest members of the baseball HOF. Henderson is a no-brainer, but Jim Rice? Was he really a HOF calibur player, especially considering some of the guys not in? Not sure about that one, but congrats to both.

 

[buckeyefool]

Rickey Henderson and Jim Rice are the newest members of the baseball HOF. Henderson is a no-brainer, but Jim Rice? Was he really a HOF calibur player, especially considering some of the guys not in? Not sure about that one, but congrats to both.

I was reading the other day that Henderson has never officially retired, but it has been 5 years since he was on an active pro roster so he became eligible for the hall.

 

[NFBuck]

Rice is a reach IMO, especially over Dawson. I think he falls into the "very good" players. There was a three year period in the late '70's where he was one of the best players in baseball, but other than that, he was just a star player. If he didn't play in Boston, he wouldn't even be in the discussion.

I cannot wait for Henderson's speech...

 

[Bucklion]

Rice is a reach IMO, especially over Dawson. I think he falls into the "very good" players. There was a three year period in the late '70's where he was one of the best players in baseball, but other than that, he was just a star player. If he didn't play in Boston, he wouldn't even be in the discussion.

I cannot wait for Henderson's speech...

Yeah, the will be a riot. Think he'll ever use first person, or always say "Rickey would like to thank..."

As for Rice, that's a fine point, as it was the same argument for putting Monk into the FB Hall...3 really good years, and a long career. A lot of guys can say that.

 

[LitlBuck]

Rice was just 7 votes over the 75% required and besides Henderson there were not many others to vote for this year. I would have thought that Bert Blyleven would have been a deserving candidate because he did not play all of this career with the best of teams. I really don't think Andre Dawson should be given that much consideration. Tim Raines has better numbers than Dawson and is not in the Hall. If you look at Rice's career numbers, they are big-time.

 

[NFBuck]

Rice was just 7 votes over the 75% required and besides Henderson there were not many others to vote for this year. I would have thought that Bert Blyleven would have been a deserving candidate because he did not play all of this career with the best of teams. I really don't think Andre Dawson should be given that much consideration. Tim Raines has better numbers than Dawson and is not in the Hall. If you look at Rice's career numbers, they are big-time.

Agreed on Blyleven.

Rice's numbers big time? 16 seasons: .298 BA, 2452 Hits, 382 HR, 1451 RBI. Like I said, he only had three, maybe four, seasons where he really placed amongst the best in baseball. He was a very good player, but I firmly believe the only reason he's going in the hall is because he wore a Red Sox uniform.

Dawson may be borderline too, but I think you can make a better case for him because he was more multi-dimensional. Besides hitting 438 HR and driving in 1591 runs, he stole over 300 bases and won 8 gold gloves (consecutively).

Raines may have a good argument, for about 7 years he was right behind Henderson as the best leadoff hitter in baseball. I think being stuck in Montreal for his best years and becoming a bit of a journeyman for much of his career hurt his chances.

 

[Bucklion]

Agreed on Blyleven.

Rice's numbers big time? 16 seasons: .298 BA, 2452 Hits, 382 HR, 1451 RBI. Like I said, he only had three, maybe four, seasons where he really placed amongst the best in baseball. He was a very good player, but I firmly believe the only reason he's going in the hall is because he wore a Red Sox uniform.

Dawson may be borderline too, but I think you can make a better case for him because he was more multi-dimensional. Besides hitting 438 HR and driving in 1591 runs, he stole over 300 bases and won 8 gold gloves (consecutively).

Raines may have a good argument, for about 7 years he was right behind Henderson as the best leadoff hitter in baseball. I think being stuck in Montreal for his best years and becoming a bit of a journeyman for much of his career hurt his chances.

I would have thought his time at the end (and the rings) from the Yankees would have helped Raines, but it obviously hasn't. I think he has a good case though.

As for Rice, he was not dominant, really. He won one MVP, hit less than 400 homers, had less than 2500 hits, and drove in less than 1500 runs. Those are decent numbers, but over 16 years, those round figures I mention average out to 25 homers, 156 hits, and 94 RBI per season. Hardly other-worldly, even for the late 70's/early 80's, and he didn't reach any of those milestones. I like Rice, I just don't think he is a HOFer.

I also agree on Blyleven. It's a crock he's not in.

 

[NFBuck]

I would have thought his time at the end (and the rings) from the Yankees would have helped Raines, but it obviously hasn't. I think he has a good case though.

As do I, but I think what has hurt him in a lot of people's eyes is that his best years were in Montreal (a baseball ghost town) and he spent much of his time after that as a bit of a role player...particularly on those Yankee teams. If I had a vote, he'd get one of mine if it was a weak crop of candidates coming in...like this year.

 

[Bucklion]

As do I, but I think what has hurt him in a lot of people's eyes is that his best years were in Montreal (a baseball ghost town) and he spent much of his time after that as a bit of a role player...particularly on those Yankee teams. If I had a vote, he'd get one of mine if it was a weak crop of candidates coming in...like this year.

I watched Raines as a kid...you're right, Montreal hurt him (as it hurts Andre Dawson as well).

 

[DaytonBuck]

Jim Rice I'm iffy on because it seemed he didn't play at high level for a long enough time. Statistically his 78 season is one of the great non-steroid ones.

 

[WoodyWorshiper]

Jim Rice I'm iffy on because it seemed he didn't play at high level for a long enough time. Statistically his 78 season is one of the great non-steroid ones.

Agree. Jim was one BAMF in his day though, and certainly one of the most feared sluggers in the game. I think what helped him was not only playing in Boston, but playing there his entire career in a time when Free-Agency was beginning to blossom. His numbers may not be as good as others who are as, if not moreso deserving, but overall I have no problem with his selection.

Peace.

 

[Bucklion]

I'm more interested in acquiring the bong the two people who voted for Jay Bell are using.

 

[NFBuck]

Next year's first-timers...

Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Andy Ashby, Ellis Burks, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Shane Reynolds, Robin Ventura, and Todd Zeile.

Alomar is a no-brainer. Galarraga had a number of good years in Colorado, but how much of that was altitude enhanced? Doubt he gets in. Larkin's an interesting case, good, not great, numbers for his position, good glove, won an MVP and made 12 All-Star teams. Was usually amongst the best SS in the game. I think he's 50/50 on his first shot. Edgar Martinez, does the DH thing hurt him? I think so. McGriff, falls into the good, not great category to me.

 

[Bucklion]

Next year's first-timers...

Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Andy Ashby, Ellis Burks, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Shane Reynolds, Robin Ventura, and Todd Zeile.

Alomar is a no-brainer. Galarraga had a number of good years in Colorado, but how much of that was altitude enhanced? Doubt he gets in. Larkin's an interesting case, good, not great, numbers for his position, good glove, won an MVP and made 12 All-Star teams. Was usually amongst the best SS in the game. I think he's 50/50 on his first shot. Edgar Martinez, does the DH thing hurt him? I think so. McGriff, falls into the good, not great category to me.

Todd Zeile???

 

[Fungo Squiggly]

I'd vote for Alomar and Larkin, although I am admittedly biased for Larkin.

Todd Zeile???

Doesn't he hold an MLB record for playing with the most teams? That should be worth something, right?

I think Robin Ventura should be voted in, but the bust should be placed in a headlock by a statue of Nolan Ryan.