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- Thread starter tibor75
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OSUBasketballJunkie
Never Forget 31-0
Whineslow is a complete ass, the guy has no class.....here is a tip for ya ass munch.....you have to EARN your respect in the NFL, what a great pick by the browns!
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Ah yes, but he was an "excellent blocker" if you listen to the Cryami fans...joke of the century.
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Savante
The Ruler's Back
I don't agree with that AT ALL. First, Winslow had some REAL nice blocks in the game, as he always does. He can block linebackers and DB's excellently. DL, no, not yet, but he's a rook and needs to add strength. In addition, he had, what, two days of practice? I thought his blocking was fine for two days of practice.Bucklion said:
It's like the line from Office Space.. the first day in jail, you've got to "beat someone down or become someone's bitch". And I think he threw that punch to step in and say 'I'm here, I know you all talk trash about me but you're gonna have to watch me because I'll either catch a TD if you give me space, or knock you in the jaw if you cover me tight'. That's my opinion of the hit.
He's got the size, speed and hands to be a great one. The only thing maybe holding him back is his head, but I think he's got the heart of someone who just wants to win. Sure, he does stupid stuff when he loses and he'll have to cool that, and I hope he will.
I bet he catches at least 50 balls with 5 TDs.
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I'll take that bet Savante...maybe we can get some help setting up a v-cash thing?
This is an interesting one, and I am not at all dismissing your opinion. I just think he is the most overrated blocker coming out of college in the last 20 years. He could block college DBs...nothing more. You think the punch means he's laying claim to his territory...I think it means he can't hack it between the whistles, and he's reacting like the high-school-adolescent he is. You think his head is the problem, and he has great heart...I think he plays hard, and has great heart when things are going well, but he melts down when they aren't, and he cries and complains and will probably blame the NFL's whipping boy, Garcia, and his teammates, like he blamed Berlin.
I don't know, if I'm wrong and he grows up fast and considerably, I will be pleasantly surprised, and the first to admit it. But if his contract situation is any indication, the Browns and their fans are going to have to continually reinforce that he is the greatest TE ever, or else he'll sob.
You're right about the size, the speed, and the hands...certianly a rare combination. Nobody denies he has potential.
If you want to lay a friendly wager on some combination of 50 catches, 600 yards, and 5 or 6 scores, I'm game.
This is an interesting one, and I am not at all dismissing your opinion. I just think he is the most overrated blocker coming out of college in the last 20 years. He could block college DBs...nothing more. You think the punch means he's laying claim to his territory...I think it means he can't hack it between the whistles, and he's reacting like the high-school-adolescent he is. You think his head is the problem, and he has great heart...I think he plays hard, and has great heart when things are going well, but he melts down when they aren't, and he cries and complains and will probably blame the NFL's whipping boy, Garcia, and his teammates, like he blamed Berlin.
I don't know, if I'm wrong and he grows up fast and considerably, I will be pleasantly surprised, and the first to admit it. But if his contract situation is any indication, the Browns and their fans are going to have to continually reinforce that he is the greatest TE ever, or else he'll sob.
You're right about the size, the speed, and the hands...certianly a rare combination. Nobody denies he has potential.
If you want to lay a friendly wager on some combination of 50 catches, 600 yards, and 5 or 6 scores, I'm game.
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yeah.....theres a reason he had 2 days of practice. you cant use that as an excuse when you sit out like a bitch.
so he did that to show that if anybody *gasp* tackles him, hes gonna come up swinging? if i played in the nfl i would be the first in line to get into his helmet so when he assured me of his manliness.....he would do it 15 in the opposite direction.
and here i thought you showed how tough you are by getting up after somebody hits you and not bitching about it. i guess i have a lot to learn.
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Savante
The Ruler's Back
Sure, I'd be happy to. I think you articulated your opinion nicely and I hold no ill will or anything, I just disagree.Bucklion said:
Well, we can't know for sure why he threw that punch. I'm just guessing. He seems like the type of guy that'd want to come in and establish himself and since he wasn't going to be in much, and probably hadn't learned all the plays, that was a good way to do it. I can't say I support doing that all the time, but to start off your NFL career, sure.
I wouldn't say Winslow's a great blocker, but as a former OL player AND coach, I love the way he tries. He needs more coaching in that -- it's obvious that, since he barely improved at ALL (his best blocking games that I saw were in his freshman year, to be honest), he wasn't being coached on that. The thing that worries me is Miami's former OC, Rob Chudzinski is the Browns' TE coach. I hope that Butch gets this kid to work on his blocking. It's more a technique than skill issue. He gets great pop, he's aggressive and he loves to hit, but too often he looks to flatten his man rather than just keep him away from the ballcarrier. That won't work against NFL linebackers. Still, I'm confident that with his speed (and therefore momentum) and strength, he'll be a good blocking TE, at least as good as Tony Gonzalez.
I worry about that too. Luckily, this is a guy who just runs his mouth. So far, he hasn't had a ton of on field incidents, nothing major there. What I don't want is somebody like Kyle Turley, who gets in brawls and chucks helmets. I'd rather KWII run his mouth and then back it up than be a drunk driver or a wifebeater -- there are many guys coming into the league with a LOT more question marks about their personality than Winslow. He's a jerk, but he's a winner, and I've never seen him dog it. Sometimes you need guys to be trash talkers and get everyone gunning for them, because then it opens up other opportunities. Every DB in the NFL wants to kill this kid -- and they'll be ignoring Q or Davis. He'll hit back, too, which is the nice thing. I'll wait until I see him cost the Browns a game with his immaturity before I say anything concrete about his personality.
I think it's more than potential, though. I mean.. if he can concentrate (which he's shown capable of on the field.. look at the NC game, he tore OSU up on the biggest stage of his career), he performs. Speed and size are part of potential, but Winslow uses his speed to get separation and his size to out muscle DBs and even some LB's. His body control is impeccable, and the hands.. sometimes you get these freaks that can outrun anybody and outjump anybody, but this guy, he is a football player. An obnoxious one, sure, but he wants to win and wants to play the game. I love his competitiveness, hate his attitude at times. So be it. Here's hoping he grows up. I know what it's like to want to explode when you lose. Even if I had 3 TDs receiving in a flag football game, if we lost, I always wanted to break things because I didn't have 5. I think (and hope and pray) that's the way he is. I just kept my emotions inside, and didn't have the press to talk to and get in trouble with!
I am too. Friendly bet, of course, and if I'm wrong, I'll be more than happy to come back and eat crow. I just hear somebody like Phil Simms, who NEVER praises rookies, saying this guy is going to be the best player in the draft. I see people writing this everywhere, and he's in the perfect offense for him. He'll LOVE playing with Garcia. This is a guy that made Eric Johnson look like a great TE -- he's got the accuracy and smarts to get it to the TE every time he needs a safety valve. With Winslow's hands, the valve is spectacular. You get it to him on a crossing pattern and he's going to outrun any linebacker trying to cover him, and out muscle any DB. His speed, he could even play WR. That's sick, at 250, and his hands are awesome. I think that he's a perfect fit where he is.
Wow, my first debate over here and so far it's been great. :) Thanks!
I hate this, though. We don't know the details of his contract offer. It's easy to look at it and say "oh, wow, he turned down 40 mill, what a tool", but we don't know exactly what was offered. Look at Rivers' contract offer -- it's like a 50 mill possibility, but to get something like 25 of that 50, he has to take the Chargers to a Super Bowl multiple times. I think it's like a 6 mill bonus if he takes the Chargers to the Super Bowl 5 times in 7 years and goes to 5 Pro Bowls. That's unbelievable. We know what Winslow signed for, we don't know what he was offered.BuckeyeNation27 said:
I know it's incentive laden now, but they're realistic incentives, like get 50 catches in a season. Maybe they weren't before. Remember the deal Ricky Williams signed originally that was almost ALL incentive? If you go on total deal it was one of the top 5 richest in the NFL ever at the time, and he was drafted at number 5. Unfortunately, a bunch of that money went to incentives that were nearly impossible to reach, like rushing for 2000 yards in a season multiple times, and breaking the NFL rushing record. What if the contract was like that? I wouldn't sign it.
He's here now. It's unfortunate he missed that week and a half of camp but some people still aren't signed. Jeff Faine, everyone's Cleveland Browns hero missed about the same amount of camp. So did William Green. Sucks, but that's the way NFL works. He's far from the longest holdout. My point is simple -- we can't really comment on contract negotiations because A) we don't know all the details and B) even if we did, we don't do this for a job. He signed for the approximate value of the original contract the Browns offered him, from all reports -- just that the incentives were a bit easier to obtain and there was more guaranteed money. I don't blame him for wanting guaranteed money. I dunno. I wish he didn't holdout, but I can't say that it was the right or wrong thing to do without knowing the details exactly.
And you'd be a smarter player than KWII. I never said he was smart, just that I think that's what he was doing. Can't say I agree with it (I never got into a brawl on the field, despite being thrown punches at), but if it doesn't keep happening.. I think that's what he did. Not the smartest, but I won't fault him for lack of intensity.
Ahhh.. please don't roll your eyes at me. I don't like that -- it's just an opinion, sorry if you don't like it. As somebody who played, I don't think I'd want to be teammates with Winslow if he's that easy to rattle, but I don't mind having someone that aggressive and intense and with that desire to win so badly. Not everyone has it in their personality to shut up and do their job -- some people are loud and expressive. I'd love to have a workmanlike entire team, but better somebody like Winslow that wants to back it up than somebody that runs their mouth and never really does anything.and here i thought you showed how tough you are by getting up after somebody hits you and not bitching about it. i guess i have a lot to learn.
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OK Savante, I don't know exactly how these personal v-cash things are made on the board, but I'll try and figure it out (Mods....help?). I am willing to say he has less than 600 yards and 6 scores for sure. The catch # I'm not as sure on, because I don't want to lose a bet if he goes David Terrell on everoyne's ass and catches a ton of 3 yard passes on 3rd and 7. Yards and scores are a better judge.
I don't know, I hear what you're saying about his techinque, but to me blocking is about the will to do it. Look at Hines Ward...not a huge guy, he just wanted to be the best blocking receiver in the NFL, and he became it by working his ass off at it. There's no glory in blocking, which is why I don't think Winslow will have the desire to work that hard at it when he can be running 20-yard crosses in practice and posing for the cameras. Again, we'll see...but that's what I see from him so far.
Personally, I think the player he reminds me most of right now is Keyshawn Johnson (back when he actually mattered, that is). He wanted to win a lot too, and I respected him for that. However, he was also always me-first, and ended up pissing off his teammates something awful, which is hard to do when you want to win very badly like he did. KJ never did the little things to make him a truly elite receiver...he just wanted to pose after a TD. I see a lot of the same in Winslow. He may grow up because he's a rook, but if he doesn't...
I still see it as potential so far. He has sick speed, but a LB covering him is going to jam him and knock him on his ass, which then makes it hard to outrun them. A DB in the NFL (esp. a good FS) can still get in front of him and prevent the catch, even if they can't tackle him as well because of his size. If he can't block, that's one less guy on the line, and Garcia will be running for his life. He may then be the safety valve, but if the QB gets killed, he may be getting passes from, I dunno, some jabroni 3rd stringer by week 6, and that won't bode well either. SImms gushes about him because he had Bavaro...and Winslow is no Bavaro yet by a longshot. Again, if he works hard enough, he can be a great TE, maybe the best in the league. But Jerry Rice wasn't Jerry Rice at first, and I'm not sure Winslow gets that, and if he doesn't, he'll be in his third year and they'll be drafting another TE. Time will tell.
I don't know, I hear what you're saying about his techinque, but to me blocking is about the will to do it. Look at Hines Ward...not a huge guy, he just wanted to be the best blocking receiver in the NFL, and he became it by working his ass off at it. There's no glory in blocking, which is why I don't think Winslow will have the desire to work that hard at it when he can be running 20-yard crosses in practice and posing for the cameras. Again, we'll see...but that's what I see from him so far.
Personally, I think the player he reminds me most of right now is Keyshawn Johnson (back when he actually mattered, that is). He wanted to win a lot too, and I respected him for that. However, he was also always me-first, and ended up pissing off his teammates something awful, which is hard to do when you want to win very badly like he did. KJ never did the little things to make him a truly elite receiver...he just wanted to pose after a TD. I see a lot of the same in Winslow. He may grow up because he's a rook, but if he doesn't...
I still see it as potential so far. He has sick speed, but a LB covering him is going to jam him and knock him on his ass, which then makes it hard to outrun them. A DB in the NFL (esp. a good FS) can still get in front of him and prevent the catch, even if they can't tackle him as well because of his size. If he can't block, that's one less guy on the line, and Garcia will be running for his life. He may then be the safety valve, but if the QB gets killed, he may be getting passes from, I dunno, some jabroni 3rd stringer by week 6, and that won't bode well either. SImms gushes about him because he had Bavaro...and Winslow is no Bavaro yet by a longshot. Again, if he works hard enough, he can be a great TE, maybe the best in the league. But Jerry Rice wasn't Jerry Rice at first, and I'm not sure Winslow gets that, and if he doesn't, he'll be in his third year and they'll be drafting another TE. Time will tell.
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sure we do...it was pretty much the contract sean taylor signed. whats in his?
wasnt rolling them at you.....more at whineslow. i wasnt calling you out in anything you said.....just making statements about crybaby based on your post. sorry for the mixup.
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Savante
The Ruler's Back
See, that's the thing. People say it was pretty much the contract Taylor signed, but we don't know the incentives in Taylor's even. The total value and years was about the same, but personally I don't know if the incentives were great. I've heard that Taylor's contract kind of sucks, actually. A Redskins fan says that although it's something along the lines of 40 mill, he might not even see half. One of the incentives (big one) is like ten interceptions. That's ludicrous, you know? The problem with Winslow, is they can put in his contract that he gets so much money with 70, 80 catches, but as a TE, that's not an accurate judge of his contribution. If he becomes the best blocker in the league, that won't show in his stats. We can't say "okay, you get a million bucks if one of our backs runs for 1,000 yards", because what if they both run for like 900? Or what if Winslow does his best, and the rest of the line sucks? Or what if the RBs both go down and we're stuck with Echemandu and Jackson as the starters? It's hard to reward someone on a team performance. If he catches 60 balls, that's a good season, but the kicker is blocking, something you can't pay. So I've heard that Winslow's issue with the contract was more that it was all receiving incentives, and that they were too high. I can't say that for sure, but if that's true.. it makes a lot of sense why he did hold out, you know?BuckeyeNation27 said:
In my opinion, the best incentive for a TE is Pro Bowls, but even then, that's not perfect. People don't like him, and if he doesn't get the voting because he's a jerk, then that's not fair. I have no clue what I personally would do with his contract, it's a tough issue.
Cool, no worries. I love it around here and I'm liking the debate, so I have no problem with people refuting my points at all. Thanks. :)
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Savante,
If you are agreeable to the 600 yard/6 TD bet, I will PM the bookmaker and set it up for us.
If you are agreeable to the 600 yard/6 TD bet, I will PM the bookmaker and set it up for us.
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