The birth of a Universe?

[jwinslow]

Supernatural causes are not needed to explain what we experience in everyday life or observe in the universe.

What have you observed that did not require causation?

 

[Brewtus]

What have you observed that did not require causation?

Causation only attributable to God? Nothing.

 

[Steve19]

Now don't go all Aristotle on me. :tongue2: It's a simple question: If God created the universe(s), then what created God? And if you answer that God has always existed, then why not accept that the universe(s) have always existed which is a simpler answer than invoking one more step and the existence of a god.

I believe that this universe is a great illusion. A temporary habitat in which we have the opportunity to know and love God and acquire spiritual qualities that are necessary before we are born into the far richer experience of the next world where we are not limited by time and perhaps other dimensions on our eternal journey.

All of the great prophets have shared a common message and imparted guidance for us to develop a set of Divine virtues that we require in that next world. In some religions, the development of those virtues is portrayed as heaven. In others, it is described as nearness to God. In some religions, failing to develop those virtues is portrayed as hell. In others, it is remoteness from God.

I believe that the variations in our images, due to race, gender and even age during our lives, shows that it is our souls that are created in the image of God and live eternally. Failing to acquire spiritual development in this life leaves us as unprepared to fully enjoy life as one born without full physical capabilities in this life.

Science and religion are in harmony in respect to suggesting conditions in which time is a meaningless concept, such as the event horizon of a black hole or the observable universe just prior to the Big Bang (link). That is, we can conceptualize that the universe is constantly expanding to a limit and then contracting to a Big Bang (link). The Creator of such a universe need not be constrained by His creation. The created can never fully understand the creator and this is beyond our ken. But, we can conceptualize ways in which time is "without beginning or end" and these need not limit the Creator.

 

[Brewtus]

I believe that this universe is a great illusion. A temporary habitat in which we have the opportunity to know and love God and acquire spiritual qualities that are necessary before we are born into the far richer experience of the next world.

All of the great prophets have shared a common message and imparted guidance for us to develop a set of virtues that we require in that next world. In some religions, the development of those virtues is portrayed as heaven. In others, it is described as nearness to God. In some religions, failing to develop those virtues is portrayed as hell. In others, it is remoteness from God.

I believe that the variations in our images, due to race, gender and even age during our lives, shows that it is our souls that are created in the image of God and live eternally. Failing to acquire spiritual development in this life leaves us as unprepared to fully enjoy life as one born without full physical capabilities in this life.

Science and religion are in harmony in respect to suggesting conditions in which time is a meaningless concept, such as the event horizon of a black hole or the observable universe just prior to the Big Bang (link). The Creator of such a universe need not be constrained by His creation. The created can never fully understand the creator and this is beyond our ken. But, we can conceptualize ways in which time is "without beginning or end" and these need not limit the Creator.

And if that's truly what you believe then more power to you as I'm sure that gives you great comfort. But I believe that when I die, that's it - my existence ends and there's no afterlife. I confess that sometimes your scenario would be more preferable to me, but that doesn't make it any more likely.

 

[AKAK]

I believe that this universe is a great illusion. A temporary habitat in which we have the opportunity to know and love God and acquire spiritual qualities that are necessary before we are born into the far richer experience of the next world where we are not limited by time and perhaps other dimensions on our eternal journey.

All of the great prophets have shared a common message and imparted guidance for us to develop a set of Divine virtues that we require in that next world. In some religions, the development of those virtues is portrayed as heaven. In others, it is described as nearness to God. In some religions, failing to develop those virtues is portrayed as hell. In others, it is remoteness from God.

I believe that the variations in our images, due to race, gender and even age during our lives, shows that it is our souls that are created in the image of God and live eternally. Failing to acquire spiritual development in this life leaves us as unprepared to fully enjoy life as one born without full physical capabilities in this life.

Science and religion are in harmony in respect to suggesting conditions in which time is a meaningless concept, such as the event horizon of a black hole or the observable universe just prior to the Big Bang (link). That is, we can conceptualize that the universe is constantly expanding to a limit and then contracting to a Big Bang (link). The Creator of such a universe need not be constrained by His creation. The created can never fully understand the creator and this is beyond our ken. But, we can conceptualize ways in which time is "without beginning or end" and these need not limit the Creator.

That's what Satan would say.

And if that's truly what you believe then more power to you as I'm sure that gives you great comfort. But I believe that when I die, that's it - my existence ends and there's no afterlife. I confess that sometimes your scenario would be more preferable to me, but that doesn't make it any more likely.

That's what Satan would say.

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

Now don't go all Aristotle on me. :tongue2: It's a simple question: If God created the universe(s), then what created God? And if you answer that God has always existed, then why not accept that the universe(s) have always existed which is a simpler answer than invoking one more step and the existence of a god.

I've mentioned this before, and I'll do it again: Mortimer Adler's book, How to Think About God: A Guide for the 20th Century Pagan, explains how even if the unverse has always existed it still requires a supreme being to sustain that existence.
One reviewer, Lyndsy, does a fairly good job of expalining the premise of the argument in a short review of a 180 page book.

 

[Brewtus]

I've mentioned this before, and I'll do it again: Mortimer Adler's book, How to Think About God: A Guide for the 20th Century Pagan, explains how even if the unverse has always existed it still requires a supreme being to sustain that existence.
One reviewer, Lyndsy, does a fairly good job of expalining the premise of the argument in a short review of a 180 page book.

I read the review and it's an interesting concept. I'm not atheistic to the idea of a Creator; I think it's unlikely, but I'm open to the possibility. However this book isn't an argument for a personal god (the God of the Bible) which is the god that I think most Americans believe in and the one that I'm (nearly) certain doesn't exist (there are very few things that I'm 100% certain about).

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

I read the review and it's an interesting concept. I'm not atheistic to the idea of a Creator; I think it's unlikely, but I'm open to the possibility. However this book isn't an argument for a personal god (the God of the Bible) which is the god that I think most Americans believe in and the one that I'm (nearly) certain doesn't exist (there are very few things that I'm 100% certain about).

Having read it, I know Adler's book falls well short of describing God as I know Him, but if there is a supreme being don't questions come up about why we exist at all? Why did this supreme being create or sustain us? I don't think one can take the idea of a supreme being lightly.

 

[Brewtus]

Having read it, I know Adler's book falls well short of describing God as I know Him, but if there is a supreme being don't questions come up about why we exist at all? Why did this supreme being create or sustain us? I don't think one can take the idea of a supreme being lightly.

As I wrote before, I'm open to the possibility that a god created the universe but it would be a bit presumptuous to assume that god also intended to create humans. It's not like humans have any significance in this enormous universe and regardless of whether or not there is a creator of the universe I see our existence as an unlikely (and certainly not inevitable) occurrence.

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

As I wrote before, I'm open to the possibility that a god created the universe but it would be a bit presumptuous to assume that god also intended to create humans. It's not like humans have any significance in this enormous universe and regardless of whether or not there is a creator of the universe I see our existence as an unlikely (and certainly not inevitable) occurrence.

Yet, we do.

I think it's a bit presumptuous to assume anything happens without God's intent.
What reason does God have to sustain the universe?

 

[Brewtus]

Yet, we do.

I think it's a bit presumptuous to assume anything happens without God's intent.
What reason does God have to sustain the universe?

If God created the entire universe solely for our benefit, he went way overboard. The universe existed for billions of years before humans evolved, then we show up for just a fraction of the lifetime of the universe, and finally we'll be long gone and the universe will still exist for billions of years more. Seems like a lot of effort for such an insignificant species. Although I will say that out species tends to have a huge ego and sense of self-importance, much more than is justified based on our puny influence and place in the universe.

 

[jwinslow]

If God created the entire universe solely for our benefit, he went way overboard. The universe existed for billions of years before humans evolved, then we show up for just a fraction of the lifetime of the universe, and finally we'll be long gone and the universe will still exist for billions of years more. Seems like a lot of effort for such an insignificant species.

1) compared with nothing, even one world would be significant

2) I don't believe the bible gives any indication about the rest of the galaxy and what God does with it, but I'm not positive about that.

Although I will say that out species tends to have a huge ego and sense of self-importance, much more than is justified based on our puny influence and place in the universe.

no doubt, but that's a rather universal flaw

All of us paint reality based on the spiritual framework of our lives. The disdain or affection for religion tends to be more of a driving force behind creation beliefs (and other similarly topics with incomplete science) than emperical evidence.

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

If God created the entire universe solely for our benefit, he went way overboard. The universe existed for billions of years before humans evolved, then we show up for just a fraction of the lifetime of the universe, and finally we'll be long gone and the universe will still exist for billions of years more. Seems like a lot of effort for such an insignificant species. Although I will say that out species tends to have a huge ego and sense of self-importance, much more than is justified based on our puny influence and place in the universe.

I actually don't believe God created the universe for us. Not at all.

 

[jwinslow]

Causation only attributable to God? Nothing.

When I ask that question, then that answer will be relevant and not merely a misdirection.

Everything I've experienced in this world had a cause. Acting as though it is readily observable is intentionally misleading.

Many choose to believe that the universe gets to skip that characteristic so there doesn't need to be something or someone causing it, but that is simply their faith talking, not science or evidence.

 

[Buckeye513]

Many choose to believe that God gets to skip that characteristic so there doesn't need to be something or someone causing it, but that is simply their faith talking, not science or evidence.