The birth of a Universe?

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Link

According to a mind-bending new theory, a black hole is actually a tunnel between universes?a type of wormhole. The matter the black hole attracts doesn't collapse into a single point, as has been predicted, but rather gushes out a "white hole" at the other end of the black one, the theory goes.
(Related: "New Proof Unknown 'Structures' Tug at Our Universe.")
In a recent paper published in the journal Physics Letters B, Indiana University physicist Nikodem Poplawski presents new mathematical models of the spiraling motion of matter falling into a black hole. His equations suggest such wormholes are viable alternatives to the "space-time singularities" that Albert Einstein predicted to be at the centers of black holes.

Not sure how "mind bending" and new this idea is.... the first time I remember considering black holes, the idea of a "white hole" seemed "obvious" to me.


In any case, what are the religious implications of a self replicating universe? (Speaking generally about modern major religious beliefs) As the article itself notes, even if true - the problem of "why did it start in the first place" remains unanswered. I personally believe that "prime mover" has to be G-d as I cannot fathom any other mechanism of creation.... But, as my posts in this respect on other threads would suggest - my view of G-d has very little to do with the Bible. So, to put a finer point on it - can the entity described in the Bible (G-d or god) survive if what is suggested in the linked article is true?

 

[buckeyegrad]

A couple of thoughts BKB, though they may not be directly addressed to what you are asking.

1. I didn't read the article, but is there evidence of white holes in our universe? After all, if such things exist, shouldn't we expect the the black holes of other universes to be tied to ours?

2. This thought came to me awhile ago while watching Fringe--which deals with an alternate universe--and I thought it would be cool to see how you would answer this. If there is an infinite number of universes, where all possibilities play themselves out, could it not be argued that God as presented in the Old and New Testament would in fact be the reality of one of those universes; and if that is true, what is to say that it is not our universe?

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

A couple of thoughts BKB, though they may not be directly addressed to what you are asking.

1. I didn't read the article, but is there evidence of white holes in our universe? After all, if such things exist, shouldn't we expect the the black holes of other universes to be tied to ours?

Yes. The Big Bang. Also, energy bursts from Quasars are cited (something which I never considered before).

2. This thought came to me awhile ago while watching Fringe--which deals with an alternate universe--and I thought it would be cool to see how you would answer this. If there is an infinite number of universes, where all possibilities play themselves out, could it not be argued that God as presented in the Old and New Testament would in fact be the reality of one of those universes; and if that is true, what is to say that it is not our universe?

I watch Fringe, so I know what you're talking about. (It's on tonight, in fact).

Well, first i would say, only possible possible universes exists. In other words, impossible universes do not. I would say - since I believe in a creator G-d - that no universe can exist which fails to have G-d.

I realize that may look like I'm skirting the question you raise, but understand the implications of the term I'm using "possible universes" In other words, I would have to maintain that the old/new test universe is an impossible one, as it is not in accord with those which are possible. To clarify, certainly one where people believe such a universe is possible is itself possible. At the end of the day, however, there is only ONE truth... it is whatever it is.

 

[MaxBuck]

At the end of the day, however, there is only ONE truth... it is whatever it is.

I'm sorry, but this flies in the face of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.

 

[Brewtus]

the problem of "why did it start in the first place" remains unanswered. I personally believe that "prime mover" has to be G-d as I cannot fathom any other mechanism of creation....

If you're going to use God as the answer to the First Cause argument, then you also need to explain how God came to be otherwise you haven't explained anything. If you need a Creator, then you need a Creator for that Creator ad infinitum.

And didn't Steven Hawking propose in the early 70's that Black Holes actually lose mass and given enough time will eventually dissipate? If that's so, then the mass that enters a Black Hole doesn't disappear but is instead slowly released back into our universe. I'm not up on current Black Hole theories so maybe Hawking's theory isn't the most accepted anymore.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

If you're going to use God as the answer to the First Cause argument, then you also need to explain how God came to be otherwise you haven't explained anything. If you need a Creator, then you need a Creator for that Creator ad infinitum.

Unless this G-d always was, which is what I believe (for the sake of my own sanity)

And didn't Steven Hawking propose in the early 70's that Black Holes actually lose mass and given enough time will eventually dissipate? If that's so, then the mass that enters a Black Hole doesn't disappear but is instead slowly released back into our universe. I'm not up on current Black Hole theories so maybe Hawking's theory isn't the most accepted anymore.

He did. In fact, just the other night I was watching some show on ... probably the history channel .. maybe NGC... about Hawking radiation and how ultimately all black holes just disappear....

I can't pretend to understand the math, but I also can't understand how "nothing escapes a black hole, not even light" and then we allow atoms to escape. But.. like I said, I'd have to defer to Hawking on that one.

In any event, yeah, Hawking's theory is still out there and as valid as it ever was, so far as I know.

 

[FCollinsBuckeye]

Don't you people have jobs?

And if so, are you hiring?

:p

 

[buckeyegrad]

If you're going to use God as the answer to the First Cause argument, then you also need to explain how God came to be otherwise you haven't explained anything. If you need a Creator, then you need a Creator for that Creator ad infinitum.

Not correct. Logic, at least as set down by Aristotle, holds that all effects must have a cause. It does not hold that everything must have a cause. Therefore, the First Cause does not have to have a preceding cause as it is not an effect.

 

[Steve19]

Not correct. Logic, at least as set down by Aristotle, holds that all effects must have a cause. It does not hold that everything must have a cause. Therefore, the First Cause does not have to have a preceding cause as it is not an effect.

And given the mechanics of an endless cycle of expansion and contraction of the universe and the implications for time preceding and following the Big Bang, time and temporal order may be nonsensical terms in relation to creation. A world without beginning and end makes sense in that vein.

 

[Brewtus]

Not correct. Logic, at least as set down by Aristotle, holds that all effects must have a cause. It does not hold that everything must have a cause. Therefore, the First Cause does not have to have a preceding cause as it is not an effect.

Now don't go all Aristotle on me. :tongue2: It's a simple question: If God created the universe(s), then what created God? And if you answer that God has always existed, then why not accept that the universe(s) have always existed which is a simpler answer than invoking one more step and the existence of a god.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Now don't go all Aristotle on me. :tongue2: It's a simple question: If God created the universe(s), then what created God? And if you answer that God has always existed, then why not accept that the universe(s) have always existed which is a simpler answer than invoking one more step and the existence of a god.

Well, for one, we can see that the universe hasn't always existed. If we believe the Astronomers, anyway, who say it's only 14 or so billion years old.

 

[jwinslow]

It's a bit easier to understand how a supernatural creature lives outside of nature compared to nature itself.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

It's a bit easier to understand how a supernatural creature lives outside of nature compared to nature itself.

Well, if there is a G-d, it also give some solution to the question - if the universe is expanding, what is it expanding in to? In other words, it is expanding in to something that is supernatural (or, outside of nature)

 

[buckeyegrad]

Now don't go all Aristotle on me. :tongue2: It's a simple question: If God created the universe(s), then what created God? And if you answer that God has always existed, then why not accept that the universe(s) have always existed which is a simpler answer than invoking one more step and the existence of a god.

I do agree with you that those are the two options. Ex nihilo nihil fit tells us that the fact that we exist implies that something has always existed.

Why choose God as opposed to the universe? Everything in my experience says that it is so. Maybe not an emperical conclusion, but neither is the alternative.

 

[Brewtus]

I do agree with you that those are the two options. Ex nihilo nihil fit tells us that the fact that we exist implies that something has always existed.

Why choose God as opposed to the universe? Everything in my experience says that it is so. Maybe not an emperical conclusion, but neither is the alternative.

And everything in my experience says that gods are a figment of man's imagination. Supernatural causes are not needed to explain what we experience in everyday life or observe in the universe. Humans are still ignorant of many things in the universe, but nothing we've observed so far can only be explained by supernatural forces so why put a god into the picture at all (except to provide simple answers to suffering, death and our existence)?