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- Thread starter Buck Raider
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11bravoBuck
Junior
bombs away
Not to beat a dead horse, or a Red Raider in this case, but I do want to visit an earlier post from brutus2002 which has apparently been deleted since I last checked page one. In brutus’ initial post in this thread, he viscerally condemns a crass and insensitive endzone celebration by Texas Tech players near the end of their bowl game against Navy last year. The intensity of brutus’ opinions in turn seemed to spark an overreaction, at least on the part of the deleter and possibly Tech apologist, Buck Raider.
While some of brutus’ criticism might seem over the top, his points are generally well taken and his feelings run true to the heart. And the urgency of brutus’ concern for his brothers-in-arms and reference to the bottomless sense of devastation for those who have lost a loved one or friend are, I think, highly relevant in this context. To those who have not served , it is impossible to gage the depth of emotional bonds between veterans in wartime (especially those who have served together in combat). For those reasons alone, I am inclined to give brutus “ the benefit of the doubt” instead of the TT players as Buck Raider does in a later post.
BR and I agree on one thing. I don't believe that the TT players “were doing something designed to denigrate or discgrace (sic) our servicemen." But unlike Buck Raider, I do think it is pretty evident that their end zone "bombing attack" celebration was something designed to denigrate their opponents, who not coincidentally happened to be the Naval Academy on that day. I have a hard time picturing the bomb being dropped on, say Baylor or Kansas.
It also seems disingenuous to me that such a pointed display can be characterized as merely youthful exuberance or “ being immature.” Yes it certainly was immature, BR. But it was also so much more–indelible performance art imagery of our in-your-face, trash talking, disrespect your opponent culture. And yes it was classless, BR. Classless on the same scale as TT coach Mike Leach’s nasty little habit of running up the score on any hapless opponent he find. Kind of like the anti-Tressel.
Br, you might remember in the 2002 game at the Shoe Leach risked injury to his starters (including Kingsbury) by playing them the whole game in order to score two late touches on the Bucks’ 3rd and 4th string to make the final score look a little more “respectable” at 45-21 instead 45-7. Then he tells anyone who will listen that the game was much closer than the score. Real classy.
By the way BR, endzone celebrations such as the one talked about here are indeed choreographed and rehearsed by the players who resort to them and do not occur spontaneously.
Be well, BR. Good luck in San Antonio. Your team will need it.
11B
Not to beat a dead horse, or a Red Raider in this case, but I do want to visit an earlier post from brutus2002 which has apparently been deleted since I last checked page one. In brutus’ initial post in this thread, he viscerally condemns a crass and insensitive endzone celebration by Texas Tech players near the end of their bowl game against Navy last year. The intensity of brutus’ opinions in turn seemed to spark an overreaction, at least on the part of the deleter and possibly Tech apologist, Buck Raider.
While some of brutus’ criticism might seem over the top, his points are generally well taken and his feelings run true to the heart. And the urgency of brutus’ concern for his brothers-in-arms and reference to the bottomless sense of devastation for those who have lost a loved one or friend are, I think, highly relevant in this context. To those who have not served , it is impossible to gage the depth of emotional bonds between veterans in wartime (especially those who have served together in combat). For those reasons alone, I am inclined to give brutus “ the benefit of the doubt” instead of the TT players as Buck Raider does in a later post.
BR and I agree on one thing. I don't believe that the TT players “were doing something designed to denigrate or discgrace (sic) our servicemen." But unlike Buck Raider, I do think it is pretty evident that their end zone "bombing attack" celebration was something designed to denigrate their opponents, who not coincidentally happened to be the Naval Academy on that day. I have a hard time picturing the bomb being dropped on, say Baylor or Kansas.
It also seems disingenuous to me that such a pointed display can be characterized as merely youthful exuberance or “ being immature.” Yes it certainly was immature, BR. But it was also so much more–indelible performance art imagery of our in-your-face, trash talking, disrespect your opponent culture. And yes it was classless, BR. Classless on the same scale as TT coach Mike Leach’s nasty little habit of running up the score on any hapless opponent he find. Kind of like the anti-Tressel.
Br, you might remember in the 2002 game at the Shoe Leach risked injury to his starters (including Kingsbury) by playing them the whole game in order to score two late touches on the Bucks’ 3rd and 4th string to make the final score look a little more “respectable” at 45-21 instead 45-7. Then he tells anyone who will listen that the game was much closer than the score. Real classy.
By the way BR, endzone celebrations such as the one talked about here are indeed choreographed and rehearsed by the players who resort to them and do not occur spontaneously.
Be well, BR. Good luck in San Antonio. Your team will need it.
11B
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Buck Raider
Rookie
First and foremost, 11B...I am a former 13A (field artillery). You're not bad at writing for an infantryman.
Second, the gist of my 'visceral condemnation' was that assumptions are not fact. When assumptions are piled on one another is less likely that the underlying conclusion is unreasonable. You even agreed some of the things Brutus said was over the top.
I had no problem with his post or his opinion. I also didn't lodge any complaint about his post.
Why I think your opinion and Brutus' over-reaches is that you both seem to think it was a direct insult to our armed services. Maybe it was. I wasn't in the end-zone with them (neither were you) so I don't know what they were thinking.
If you really want to get nit picky about it, then explain to me why they didn't do some skit with sinking a boat in the endzone. I could see how if they were playing Army, the correlation would seem more direct. Even though Marines come from the USNA, I wouldn't give tech players THAT much credit for making that connection such that they would rehearse a celebration over it. Your correlation is just obscure. That is one reason I have hang-ups with it.
The reality is that the truth of this is somewhere in the middle. If that makes me an apologist then I guess I am. The fact I want to give Tech players the benefit doubt is almost certainly my own assumptions based on my biases. I don't have a monopoly on mind reading and neither do you.
I've enjoyed posting on this page and OSU fans have showed me alot of class. I'm not going to discuss your calling Tech or Coach Leach classless because that could send this thread into a hopeless spirall.
(sic)
Second, the gist of my 'visceral condemnation' was that assumptions are not fact. When assumptions are piled on one another is less likely that the underlying conclusion is unreasonable. You even agreed some of the things Brutus said was over the top.
I had no problem with his post or his opinion. I also didn't lodge any complaint about his post.
Why I think your opinion and Brutus' over-reaches is that you both seem to think it was a direct insult to our armed services. Maybe it was. I wasn't in the end-zone with them (neither were you) so I don't know what they were thinking.
If you really want to get nit picky about it, then explain to me why they didn't do some skit with sinking a boat in the endzone. I could see how if they were playing Army, the correlation would seem more direct. Even though Marines come from the USNA, I wouldn't give tech players THAT much credit for making that connection such that they would rehearse a celebration over it. Your correlation is just obscure. That is one reason I have hang-ups with it.
The reality is that the truth of this is somewhere in the middle. If that makes me an apologist then I guess I am. The fact I want to give Tech players the benefit doubt is almost certainly my own assumptions based on my biases. I don't have a monopoly on mind reading and neither do you.
I've enjoyed posting on this page and OSU fans have showed me alot of class. I'm not going to discuss your calling Tech or Coach Leach classless because that could send this thread into a hopeless spirall.
(sic)
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trinitytex
Sophmore
Buck Raider,
You might be the most intelligent poster i have ever seen on any sports message board ever. Your points are eloquent and well-reasoned. And most impressively, you recognize your own biases (the one thing that frustrates me more than anything about sports message boards is the inability to have coherent, objective conversations about sports).
I just found out that I'm probably going back to SA for the Alamo Bowl (and back to see some College buddies). Needless to say, I'm very excited.
OSU is still going to win.
You might be the most intelligent poster i have ever seen on any sports message board ever. Your points are eloquent and well-reasoned. And most impressively, you recognize your own biases (the one thing that frustrates me more than anything about sports message boards is the inability to have coherent, objective conversations about sports).
I just found out that I'm probably going back to SA for the Alamo Bowl (and back to see some College buddies). Needless to say, I'm very excited.
OSU is still going to win.
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brutus2002
Legend
Well I deleted my own post. It wasn't a moderator and I know I didn't have to do it but I figured it was time to talk some football.
Anybody that would question my patriotism or love for my fellow troops is not only stupid but a damn liar. I would give the shirt off my back for my fellow Marines. I almost gave my life for my country.
Most people on this board that really know me as a poster realize I wouldn't say something unless I really felt that way. When the coach of the Texas Tech team apologizes in his post game interview and looks like he got his ass beat in the game because hes so pissed off I think my original post was not an exagerration.
AS far as the game is concerned I hope we play Okie St. but we are gonna probably play Texas Tech. I just hope we come out and play as well as we played in the Michigan game.
I can't wait to see Ginn and our receivers play on turf. The scoreboard is going to be lit up like a christmas tree.
I want to see our players on defense and see if we continue to improve. These 16 practices can help us make strides for next year.
Lets talk football!!!
Anybody that would question my patriotism or love for my fellow troops is not only stupid but a damn liar. I would give the shirt off my back for my fellow Marines. I almost gave my life for my country.
Most people on this board that really know me as a poster realize I wouldn't say something unless I really felt that way. When the coach of the Texas Tech team apologizes in his post game interview and looks like he got his ass beat in the game because hes so pissed off I think my original post was not an exagerration.
AS far as the game is concerned I hope we play Okie St. but we are gonna probably play Texas Tech. I just hope we come out and play as well as we played in the Michigan game.
I can't wait to see Ginn and our receivers play on turf. The scoreboard is going to be lit up like a christmas tree.
I want to see our players on defense and see if we continue to improve. These 16 practices can help us make strides for next year.
Lets talk football!!!
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11bravoBuck
Junior
13a
Thanks for the compliment, Buck Raider. I think. (11 bravo occupational condition noted).
Actually, in Vietnam I was academically junior at my job during my first few operations in III Corps. Of the three riflemen in my squad who got off the boat together at the beginning of our tour, one was an engineering doctoral student from NCSt, the second was a recent ND graduate, and then there was me (at the time one year at Ohio State).
I ended up outranking both by the end of the tour. Must have been that Buckeye background. Come to think of it, OSU over ND and NCSt does seem to be the natural order of things.
Anyway, you seem to drop your ordinance without having to fire too many markers, BR. Not too many short rounds either. But that said, I think you misunderstood several points in my earlier post.
First, I described elements in brutus’ first post as '”visceral condemnation.” I described nothing in any of your posts in those terms.
Second, I never said or thought that the Texas Tech player celebration in question was a direct insult to our armed services. What I wrote in the third paragraph of my earlier post in this thread was: “I don't believe that the TT players ’were doing something designed to denigrate or discgrace (sic) our servicemen (or military in general).’ “
I also wrote: “Their endzone ‘bombing attack’ celebration was something designed to denigrate their opponents, who not coincidentally happened to be the Naval Academy on that day.” Perhaps I should have said the Naval Academy football team.
Finally BR, I never called Tech classless. I have no reason to issue such a blanket indictment of an institution or its fans, students, and staff. In fact, my experience with the Tech fans (mostly in the context of the 2002 game over on Bucknuts) has been great except for the few flamers that attend any program’s fan base. I agree totally with Clarity’s post dealing with Red Raider fans also posted on page one.
I specifically referred to Mike Leach and the players involved in that endzone display in the Navy game as classless. I explained why and that opinion stands. I suspect that we will continue to disagree about that. Otherwise I enjoy your posts and eagerness to discuss football.
If we were in the field I would suggest you lose the earplugs, BR. There is nothing in coming or outgoing, at least until game time. Again good luck, 13A.
Thanks for the compliment, Buck Raider. I think. (11 bravo occupational condition noted).
Actually, in Vietnam I was academically junior at my job during my first few operations in III Corps. Of the three riflemen in my squad who got off the boat together at the beginning of our tour, one was an engineering doctoral student from NCSt, the second was a recent ND graduate, and then there was me (at the time one year at Ohio State).
I ended up outranking both by the end of the tour. Must have been that Buckeye background. Come to think of it, OSU over ND and NCSt does seem to be the natural order of things.
Anyway, you seem to drop your ordinance without having to fire too many markers, BR. Not too many short rounds either. But that said, I think you misunderstood several points in my earlier post.
First, I described elements in brutus’ first post as '”visceral condemnation.” I described nothing in any of your posts in those terms.
Second, I never said or thought that the Texas Tech player celebration in question was a direct insult to our armed services. What I wrote in the third paragraph of my earlier post in this thread was: “I don't believe that the TT players ’were doing something designed to denigrate or discgrace (sic) our servicemen (or military in general).’ “
I also wrote: “Their endzone ‘bombing attack’ celebration was something designed to denigrate their opponents, who not coincidentally happened to be the Naval Academy on that day.” Perhaps I should have said the Naval Academy football team.
Finally BR, I never called Tech classless. I have no reason to issue such a blanket indictment of an institution or its fans, students, and staff. In fact, my experience with the Tech fans (mostly in the context of the 2002 game over on Bucknuts) has been great except for the few flamers that attend any program’s fan base. I agree totally with Clarity’s post dealing with Red Raider fans also posted on page one.
I specifically referred to Mike Leach and the players involved in that endzone display in the Navy game as classless. I explained why and that opinion stands. I suspect that we will continue to disagree about that. Otherwise I enjoy your posts and eagerness to discuss football.
If we were in the field I would suggest you lose the earplugs, BR. There is nothing in coming or outgoing, at least until game time. Again good luck, 13A.
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Buck Raider
Rookie
I've had a blast posting here. I never post messages on Tech pages because its more fun for me to hear the other perspective.
One of the things I accepted in life has been the limitations of rooting for the Red Raiders. Though it seems y'all seem content to be going to the Alamo Bowl -- being 2 years removed from a National Championship I understand it is probably a disappointment. An Alamo Bowl birth for Tech is a bit of an over-achievment though the've been twice before.
The post yesterday from the Tech web-page really hits the nail on the head. The fact is Tech is a work in progress. The Alumni base is growing rapidly and more importantly so is the pride the alumni is taking in its school. This season was the first I've seen that they sold out every game at our 52,000 seat stadium. Tech's biggest alumni base is in Dallas -- 5 hours away from Lubbock!
Though things are looking up, Tech will never be in the company of the Ohio States. Not on a year to year basis. In my lifetime Tech may win a couple of Big 12 Championships and may.....may....in a freakish year compete for the National Championship (like Va. Tech in 1999 or KSU in 1998). As hard as we try, we'll always have to jockey with more massive schools in our own back yard -- Texas, A&M, and OU. Oklahoma State is actually our bitch (we're not THAT worthless).
I think that mentality explains -- for better or worse -- the Tech fan. Part Napolianic (sp?) complex, part wishful thinking.
I'll be pretty disappointed if Tech doesn't get the Alamo nod because a game with tOSU (not bad, eh?) is simply the biggest fish to fry for us right now. Also because I've got tix lined up in SA. Tech frequently gets over-looked by bowl committees because we have a bad rep for not traveling well. I wouldn't be shocked if we get passed up and head to the jerk-water bowl in Shreveport.
I'm not eager to learn the hard way that our secondary will get shredded by this Ginn fellow and that your place-kicker can hit it to the moon. (It seems like every Big 10 school we play has a hall of fame kicker.) I might be watching the game through my fingers, but then again, Leach's offense hung 40 points on Texas for two years straight, and a huge ugly number on the Nebraska black-skirt defense. So anything is possible. Maybe I've just had too much coffee this morning.
Thanks for the nice things y'all have said. Sometimes the best thing to say is that we can agree to disagree. Football is a talkin' sport and that is why I'm here. If we don't go to the Alamo bowl, then if any of y'all have a link to the Miami (OH) web pages I'd appreciate it....cause we might be stuck playing them instead. I'd like to talk smack to them.
bye the way.....OSU hoops is comming to Dallas next weeks to play the Red Raiders. How scared do I need to be about that?
and how do I get more vcash?
One of the things I accepted in life has been the limitations of rooting for the Red Raiders. Though it seems y'all seem content to be going to the Alamo Bowl -- being 2 years removed from a National Championship I understand it is probably a disappointment. An Alamo Bowl birth for Tech is a bit of an over-achievment though the've been twice before.
The post yesterday from the Tech web-page really hits the nail on the head. The fact is Tech is a work in progress. The Alumni base is growing rapidly and more importantly so is the pride the alumni is taking in its school. This season was the first I've seen that they sold out every game at our 52,000 seat stadium. Tech's biggest alumni base is in Dallas -- 5 hours away from Lubbock!
Though things are looking up, Tech will never be in the company of the Ohio States. Not on a year to year basis. In my lifetime Tech may win a couple of Big 12 Championships and may.....may....in a freakish year compete for the National Championship (like Va. Tech in 1999 or KSU in 1998). As hard as we try, we'll always have to jockey with more massive schools in our own back yard -- Texas, A&M, and OU. Oklahoma State is actually our bitch (we're not THAT worthless).
I think that mentality explains -- for better or worse -- the Tech fan. Part Napolianic (sp?) complex, part wishful thinking.
I'll be pretty disappointed if Tech doesn't get the Alamo nod because a game with tOSU (not bad, eh?) is simply the biggest fish to fry for us right now. Also because I've got tix lined up in SA. Tech frequently gets over-looked by bowl committees because we have a bad rep for not traveling well. I wouldn't be shocked if we get passed up and head to the jerk-water bowl in Shreveport.
I'm not eager to learn the hard way that our secondary will get shredded by this Ginn fellow and that your place-kicker can hit it to the moon. (It seems like every Big 10 school we play has a hall of fame kicker.) I might be watching the game through my fingers, but then again, Leach's offense hung 40 points on Texas for two years straight, and a huge ugly number on the Nebraska black-skirt defense. So anything is possible. Maybe I've just had too much coffee this morning.
Thanks for the nice things y'all have said. Sometimes the best thing to say is that we can agree to disagree. Football is a talkin' sport and that is why I'm here. If we don't go to the Alamo bowl, then if any of y'all have a link to the Miami (OH) web pages I'd appreciate it....cause we might be stuck playing them instead. I'd like to talk smack to them.
bye the way.....OSU hoops is comming to Dallas next weeks to play the Red Raiders. How scared do I need to be about that?
and how do I get more vcash?
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MoCity Raider
Newbie
For the record, it was a pre-meditated, poorly timed, ill concieved copy of the Coles celebration by a good group of departing seniors. In spite of that exhibition, which was a mistake, that was a fine group of young men.
On the other hand, if you want to talk about the goal post incident, make sure you have all the facts. While it was back page news several days later, it was not what it was initially represented to be.
Frankly, I hope we can talk about our potential Alamo bowl match-up instead.
On the other hand, if you want to talk about the goal post incident, make sure you have all the facts. While it was back page news several days later, it was not what it was initially represented to be.
Frankly, I hope we can talk about our potential Alamo bowl match-up instead.
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CleveBucks
Serenity now
I think we can forget about the "revenge" factor. Tech will probably be in the Holiday, now that Texas is in the BCS. We'll probably get OkSU.
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Mr.FuzzyPants
The best damn pants in the land
Looks like Texas Tech is just going to be plain sore after they play Cal...Ouch.
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Bucktastic
Troy Smith for HEISMAN
Good luck against Cal, Tech fans. The over on that game is going to 100+....
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MoCity Raider
Newbie
Sorry it didn't work out this year. Best of luck in San Antonio. If the weather is good, I think you'll enjoy the riverwalk.
Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays to you all.
MoCity Raider
Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays to you all.
MoCity Raider
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