with the pitching staff as shitty as they have been, save the last 2 games, clemens can carry them in the playoffs....and thats all they would want him for.
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Sloopy45
Pimp Minister Sinister
"with the pitching staff as shitty as they have been, save the last 2 games, clemens can carry them in the playoffs....and thats all they would want him for."
Clemens isn't the answer. YOUNG pitching is the answer. The Yankees have 3 former ace pitchers on their staff who should be, just like Clemens should be, good enough to carry them in the Playoffs. But the bottom line is, they aren't good enough.
And, most important: the Yankees have an old bullpen. As good as Clemens (or any 40 year old pitcher for that matter) is, they usually go 5 to 6 (maybe 7 on a great night) Innings per start and hand it over to the 'Pen. Last year, the Bullpen got burned out badly (as you saw in the Red Sox Series) by having to take over for old pitchers every single night in the 6th Inning. By the time October came around, Quantrill was useless, the Great Mo was tired, Gordon was ineffective, and there was no one else standing.
AND, to belabor the point: the Red Sox (the team the Yankees should be looking to match up with), make pitchers work and throw a ton of pitches. They feast on any old pitcher because they get him up to 110 pitches by the 6th Inning and then feast on the long men in the Bullpen. Acquiring Clemens is playing right into Boston's hands.
The last thing they need is Clemens. They already have 3 pitchers in that same mold. Acquiring more big name salaries isn't going to help the Yankees. Rebuilding the farm system is the only thing that can help the Yankees.
Clemens isn't the answer. YOUNG pitching is the answer. The Yankees have 3 former ace pitchers on their staff who should be, just like Clemens should be, good enough to carry them in the Playoffs. But the bottom line is, they aren't good enough.
And, most important: the Yankees have an old bullpen. As good as Clemens (or any 40 year old pitcher for that matter) is, they usually go 5 to 6 (maybe 7 on a great night) Innings per start and hand it over to the 'Pen. Last year, the Bullpen got burned out badly (as you saw in the Red Sox Series) by having to take over for old pitchers every single night in the 6th Inning. By the time October came around, Quantrill was useless, the Great Mo was tired, Gordon was ineffective, and there was no one else standing.
AND, to belabor the point: the Red Sox (the team the Yankees should be looking to match up with), make pitchers work and throw a ton of pitches. They feast on any old pitcher because they get him up to 110 pitches by the 6th Inning and then feast on the long men in the Bullpen. Acquiring Clemens is playing right into Boston's hands.
The last thing they need is Clemens. They already have 3 pitchers in that same mold. Acquiring more big name salaries isn't going to help the Yankees. Rebuilding the farm system is the only thing that can help the Yankees.
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tibor75
Banned
"Clemens was tailing off during his last year with the Yankees. I love the guy, but he's not a Cy Young-caliber pitcher in the A.L. anymore. It took the National League to bump him back up to Cy Young level. He won't come close to that in the AL."
I'm sure the Red Sox thought such stupidity 8 years ago.
I'm sure the Red Sox thought such stupidity 8 years ago.
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Sloopy45
Pimp Minister Sinister
TimothyDalton: "I'm sure the Red Sox thought such stupidity 8 years ago."
Its was stupid to think that about a 33 year old HOF pitcher. It called being cautious when you think it about a 42 year old pitcher. And its called realism when you consider how much the NL sucks, and the fact that Clemens' ERA dropped by a run (3.91 to 2.98) when he went to the "Senior" Circuit.
Its was stupid to think that about a 33 year old HOF pitcher. It called being cautious when you think it about a 42 year old pitcher. And its called realism when you consider how much the NL sucks, and the fact that Clemens' ERA dropped by a run (3.91 to 2.98) when he went to the "Senior" Circuit.
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youre looking at it in the long run, while yankee haters dont want them to win now or in the future.Sloopy45 said:
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Sloopy45
Pimp Minister Sinister
"youre looking at it in the long run, while yankee haters dont want them to win now or in the future."
Clemens can't help them in the short run or the long run. What would've helped the Yankees is not trading Damaso Marte for Enrique Wilson. Or not trading Yhency Brazoban for Kevin Brown. Or not trading Ted Lilly for Jeff Weaver. Or not signing Jason Giambi instead of David Ortiz.
Unless the last four years have shown you nothing, free agency doesn't win Championships in New York (only in Boston). As I said last year, the Yankees won't win it this year. They'll have another great season, but someone will upend them before the brass ring.
Clemens can't help them in the short run or the long run. What would've helped the Yankees is not trading Damaso Marte for Enrique Wilson. Or not trading Yhency Brazoban for Kevin Brown. Or not trading Ted Lilly for Jeff Weaver. Or not signing Jason Giambi instead of David Ortiz.
Unless the last four years have shown you nothing, free agency doesn't win Championships in New York (only in Boston). As I said last year, the Yankees won't win it this year. They'll have another great season, but someone will upend them before the brass ring.
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daddyphatsacs
Let the cards fall...
Sloopy45 said:
No, actually the era is lower because there is pitching in the NL, which forces him to get into a pitchers duel. The AL definition of a pitchers duel is 6-4.
Sloopy45 said:
Probably will be a shitty NL team, who have better pitching top to bottom in the stronger teams.
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Misanthrope
Banned
Yo, Stewart, er I mean Sloopy, I'm not telling you to make a big deal out of anything, be it the Yanks record or A-Rod's batting stats.
I don't like the Yankees, and I get a kick out of watching Steinbrenner's mercenaries-du-jour struggle - nothing more, nothing less.
I also enjoy poking holes in bold statements by "fans" that don't stand up to facts, which is the only reason I got this involved in the debate. You made some strong comments that didn't stand up to history - whether or not you liked having that fact pointed out to you is irrelevant.
You obviously like the Yanks, good for you. I never did and I'm not one to jump on bandwagons so I'll stay the course. I hope the Yankees end up with the worst record in baseball, but given their revenues and the lack of any real limitations on spending in MLB, I realize that outcome is highly unlikely.
The fact that we're even having this discussion speaks volumes...
I don't like the Yankees, and I get a kick out of watching Steinbrenner's mercenaries-du-jour struggle - nothing more, nothing less.
I also enjoy poking holes in bold statements by "fans" that don't stand up to facts, which is the only reason I got this involved in the debate. You made some strong comments that didn't stand up to history - whether or not you liked having that fact pointed out to you is irrelevant.
You obviously like the Yanks, good for you. I never did and I'm not one to jump on bandwagons so I'll stay the course. I hope the Yankees end up with the worst record in baseball, but given their revenues and the lack of any real limitations on spending in MLB, I realize that outcome is highly unlikely.
The fact that we're even having this discussion speaks volumes...
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Sloopy45
Pimp Minister Sinister
daddyphatsacs: "No, actually the era is lower because there is pitching in the NL, which forces him to get into a pitchers duel. The AL definition of a pitchers duel is 6-4."
Look up the stats, DP. The ERA in the AL is about a run, run & a half higher than the NL. That's the DH. That's why Clemens has a 4.00 ERA in the AL, and wins a Cy Young in the NL. That's why Javier Vazquez is one of the brightest young pitchers in the game in the NL, and a bitch in the AL. That's why Jon Lieber is a 20 game winner in the NL, and a good 3rd starter in the AL. And we can go on, and on, and on .. Jeff Weaver, Derek Lowe, Pedro Martinez, etc. The offenses in the AL and far, far, far superior on a night-in & night-out basis in the AL.
"Probably will be a shitty NL team, who have better pitching top to bottom in the stronger teams."
Name me one NL team with that infamous 'top to bottom' pitching. The Brewers? The Nationals? The Mets? Last year's Cardinals? The Braves of the 1990's are my favorite "Better NL Pitching Top to Bottom" team of all-time: they cruised throughout the regular season and the Playoffs, and then got run over when they had to face the superior offenses in the AL.
Misanthrope: "I also enjoy poking holes in bold statements by "fans" that don't stand up to facts, which is the only reason I got this involved in the debate."
You poked holes in nothing I said. I said A-Rod is a stat-monger. You agreed, and showed me stats to back that up. A-Rod is better at compiling stats, but he's not even in the same class as Jeter. Any Yankee fan who watches the team can tell you that. I don't care what Rodriguez can do in a blowout game against Texas in May. I care about what he does against the Red Sox in October.
And, if you want 'arguments with holes,' try looking for a 'fan' who thinks the baseball season is over on May 9th.
"The fact that we're even having this discussion speaks volumes..."
Speaks volumes about what?
Look up the stats, DP. The ERA in the AL is about a run, run & a half higher than the NL. That's the DH. That's why Clemens has a 4.00 ERA in the AL, and wins a Cy Young in the NL. That's why Javier Vazquez is one of the brightest young pitchers in the game in the NL, and a bitch in the AL. That's why Jon Lieber is a 20 game winner in the NL, and a good 3rd starter in the AL. And we can go on, and on, and on .. Jeff Weaver, Derek Lowe, Pedro Martinez, etc. The offenses in the AL and far, far, far superior on a night-in & night-out basis in the AL.
"Probably will be a shitty NL team, who have better pitching top to bottom in the stronger teams."
Name me one NL team with that infamous 'top to bottom' pitching. The Brewers? The Nationals? The Mets? Last year's Cardinals? The Braves of the 1990's are my favorite "Better NL Pitching Top to Bottom" team of all-time: they cruised throughout the regular season and the Playoffs, and then got run over when they had to face the superior offenses in the AL.
Misanthrope: "I also enjoy poking holes in bold statements by "fans" that don't stand up to facts, which is the only reason I got this involved in the debate."
You poked holes in nothing I said. I said A-Rod is a stat-monger. You agreed, and showed me stats to back that up. A-Rod is better at compiling stats, but he's not even in the same class as Jeter. Any Yankee fan who watches the team can tell you that. I don't care what Rodriguez can do in a blowout game against Texas in May. I care about what he does against the Red Sox in October.
And, if you want 'arguments with holes,' try looking for a 'fan' who thinks the baseball season is over on May 9th.
"The fact that we're even having this discussion speaks volumes..."
Speaks volumes about what?
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daddyphatsacs
Let the cards fall...
I'm not talking about the 90's here, I am talking about 2005. The year that the overreaching Yankees finally eat their crow. To name a couple Florida Marilins are one team, and Atlanta is the 2nd team. Atlanta's pitching staff has 3 #1 starters in their rotation, along with 2 # 2's. And they have backed it up this season. Florida's team era is under 3.00.
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Sloopy45
Pimp Minister Sinister
daddyphatsacs: "I am talking about 2005. The year that the overreaching Yankees finally eat their crow."
You think any Yankee fan cares about this? Oh yeah, the team FINALLY got old (like every great team does): 10 straight Playoff Appearences, 4 World Titles, 6 Pennants, and 8 Division Titles later, we finally come down to earth. Yee-haw. Had to happen sometime ..
And oh yeah, BTW: It hasn't happened YET. Talk to me in August. Minimum.
When I look back on history, am I gonna remember the Big Red Machine for what they did in 1977, or am I gonna look at what they did in '75-'76? Case closed. Enjoy your "Moment." No Yankee fan is in misery ..
"To name a couple Florida Marilins are one team, and Atlanta is the 2nd team."
That's two teams. I'll even give you the Cubs too. And for those three, I'll counter with the White Sox, Twins, A's, and Orioles. The fact of the matter is this: the AL is MUCH tougher to pitch in because of the DH. Period. There's a big difference between Tom Glavine hitting and Edgar Martinex hitting.
You think any Yankee fan cares about this? Oh yeah, the team FINALLY got old (like every great team does): 10 straight Playoff Appearences, 4 World Titles, 6 Pennants, and 8 Division Titles later, we finally come down to earth. Yee-haw. Had to happen sometime ..
And oh yeah, BTW: It hasn't happened YET. Talk to me in August. Minimum.
When I look back on history, am I gonna remember the Big Red Machine for what they did in 1977, or am I gonna look at what they did in '75-'76? Case closed. Enjoy your "Moment." No Yankee fan is in misery ..
"To name a couple Florida Marilins are one team, and Atlanta is the 2nd team."
That's two teams. I'll even give you the Cubs too. And for those three, I'll counter with the White Sox, Twins, A's, and Orioles. The fact of the matter is this: the AL is MUCH tougher to pitch in because of the DH. Period. There's a big difference between Tom Glavine hitting and Edgar Martinex hitting.
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lots of yankee fans i know are in misery. thats because probably 85% of all yankee fans are the bandwagon shitheads who dont know shit about baseball and their favorite player is the newest yankee aquisition. these fuckwads ARE in misery, and I'm loving it
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Sloopy45
Pimp Minister Sinister
"lots of yankee fans i know are in misery. thats because probably 85% of all yankee fans are the bandwagon shitheads who dont know shit about baseball"
That's probably true. As for me, I don't care what this team does. If I had my way, they'd strip down the roster to the 10 (or so) players that I like, and rebuild with home grown kids and solid (if not spectacular) acquisitions.
I was born in 1975. My favorite player of all time is Don Mattingly. My formative years (as a kid) were spent watching this team as a laughingstock, because of Steinbrenner. If anyone had asked me in 1993 if I'd ever see the Yankees win a World Series, I would've said, "Hell no." I would've taken just a shot in the Playoffs with Donnie Baseball.
And instead, I got a Dynasty. Possibly the greatest team of all time. I watched a gangly Shortstop play at Cooper Stadium on Dime-A-Dog night one year, and become the Rookie of the Year in the World Series the next. I saw the Great Mariano START against the Blue Jays (still have the ticket somewhere) in '95, and turn into the greatest reliever of all time in '96. I'm playing with house money.
If misanthrope or you, or DP for that matter, thinks I'm gonna sweat what the Yankees record on May 10th is, you're gravely mistaken.
That's probably true. As for me, I don't care what this team does. If I had my way, they'd strip down the roster to the 10 (or so) players that I like, and rebuild with home grown kids and solid (if not spectacular) acquisitions.
I was born in 1975. My favorite player of all time is Don Mattingly. My formative years (as a kid) were spent watching this team as a laughingstock, because of Steinbrenner. If anyone had asked me in 1993 if I'd ever see the Yankees win a World Series, I would've said, "Hell no." I would've taken just a shot in the Playoffs with Donnie Baseball.
And instead, I got a Dynasty. Possibly the greatest team of all time. I watched a gangly Shortstop play at Cooper Stadium on Dime-A-Dog night one year, and become the Rookie of the Year in the World Series the next. I saw the Great Mariano START against the Blue Jays (still have the ticket somewhere) in '95, and turn into the greatest reliever of all time in '96. I'm playing with house money.
If misanthrope or you, or DP for that matter, thinks I'm gonna sweat what the Yankees record on May 10th is, you're gravely mistaken.
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sears3820
Sitting around in my underwear....
Sloopy45 said:
Do they have any solid ones left in the farm system?
Way too early to get in a tizzy about anyone's record. We all know the MFY's will make a run and be there in the thick of things come September and also that the White Sox will fade into obscurity.
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