Should Urban redshirt so much?

[jwinslow]

With so many underclassmen declaring early, and a handful doing so two years early, the often debated topic of redshirting has resurfaced. I decided to go back and breakdown the top-200 or so recruits in the past 3 classes and analyze whether the OSU staff made the right call (I skipped 2012 because it was largely an inherited class and OSU was a mess).

Bell - played - special teams and saw time as backup. Should've supplanted Brown, but that was a uniquely bad situation ahead of him.
Mitchell - redshirted - then transferred, now transferred again. Despite theatrics from others (not mitchells), he was clearly not ready.
Marshall - redshirted - set back by a concussion in fall camp. Debatable decision, could have helped provide another h-back on a team without them (Wilson was so thin and Brown was iffy moonlighting there)
Bosa - played - early and often. great choice.
Elliott - played - special teams and brief carries. Still wasn't fully ready in Sep of year 2.
Wilson - played - early and often. More of a novelty act but drew a lot of attention and added a different dimension. Probably wasn't truly ready to be a full time contributor.
Lisle - redshirted - most OL should redshirt, and he wasn't ready. His main contributions may begin in year 4.
Baugh - redshirted - was not ready. Came into his own in year 3.
Apple - redshirted - was not ready.
Burrows - played - early and often, special teams and defense. Can't stay on field, partially due to health.
Conley - redshirted - was not ready in year 1, was not fully ready in year 2 either. Really shined in year 3.
Hill - redshirted - via medical redshirt, wasn't really likely to be a regular contributor in B1G play in year 1. Finally developing in year 3.
Barrett - redshirted - rehabbing and buried on depth chart.
Johnson - played - early and often, didn't quite break through, later retired due to injury.
Price - redshirted - needed to figure out his position, wasn't going to contribute in year 1.
(Lee isn't counted here due to ranking but he wasn't ready either)

14 of 15 wise choices - Marshall being the exception.

Hubbard - redshirted - coaches struggled with whether to burn it. Very good player, but Miller stepped up and Bosa was a monster. Lewis a solid backup. Did they truly need him?
Webb - played - saw time in both seasons, starting nickelback in year 2. Helped speed up his development but he's not likely to be a 3 and out guy.
Smith - played - often on special teams and some as a backup, still becoming a consistent player. Lost halfway thru yr 2 to injury.
McMillan - played - early and often. co-starter due to a struggling starter ahead of him.
Lattimore - redshirted - injured.
Samuel - played - early and was key to NC run. Probably a major weapon in yr 2 if Braxton doesn't move to h-back.
Jones - played - both seasons as a reserve. Should he have replaced Farris in year 2?
Berger - redshirted - injured
Booker - played - both seasons on ST and as a backup. Lots of talent, still pretty raw
Campbell - redshirted - right choice. High potential but raw. Remained that way in year 2.
Knox - redshirted - like most OL should. OSU OL was dominant and did not factor into year 2 either.
Holmes - played - both seasons as a backup. About in the same spot as when he started playing.
Brown - played - big blocker that added much needed depth outside. Would've been big part of yr 2 without injury.
Dixon - played - then redshirted due to injury. Career may be ruined by injuries.

13 of 14 wise choices - Hubbard being the exception, and I think that's debatable

Gibson - redshirted - raw, some off-field and maturity issues. Appears to be returning for a potential breakout 2016 season. Playmakers were not the weakness with the 2015 OSU offense and frankly there weren't many opportunities for him to play.
Hilliard - redshirted - OSU had 3 strong returning starters and got Baker and Booker much PT in spot duty with Cam as a regular too.
Weber - redshirted - due to surgery in fall camp. Probably backs up Elliott. They didn't need him this year but would have preferred a more experienced back for 2016.
Prince - played - got valuable experience this year to take over for Farris in year 2.
Baker - played - special teams and some defense, struggled but got to grow up.
Glover-WIlliams - played - on special teams. Didn't get reps on D because of depth at DB.
Burrell - redshirted - like most OL should.
Ward - played - special teams and got some live reps on D.
Burrow - redshirted - certainly didn't need more participants in QBGeddon.
Stump - redshirted - recovering from injury
Cornell - redshirted - stuck behind Bosa, Hubbard, Lewis, Holmes.

9/10 of 11 wise choices, with Weber as iffy and Gibson as the debate between 9 or 10.

Frankly, I'd say the staff did a remarkably good job with their choices to redshirt.

 

[ShowMeBuck]

Cool list. Nice work. This is just what I needed today- a reminder that we have some very talented guys in the cupboard who haven't seen playing time but have been developing....and waiting their turn.

 

[mattynokes]

I know Special Teams are important and Urban really stresses them, but I'm still not convinced those are quality reps. Zeke made some nice plays on coverage units in 2013, but if he wasn't there are we certain his replacement means terrible performance? To me, we got two years out of Zeke. So, redshirt or not, that's still two years.

I don't remember what was said in 2013 about Marshall, but based off of seeing his early performances in '14, I'm not sure he was ready to add production to the team. He made a lot of mistakes early on in '14 and looked like someone who was still learning a new position.

I won't get hung up on redshirt or play right away. We don't know if they'll be the next star or the next guy that gets lost in reps. I feel like it seems easy to speak in hindsight, but there are so many things in play with how things work out in the end. An injury here or there or a young player emerging and it changes the course of how another player's career plays out. Maybe they leave early. Maybe they end up staying all 5 years.

 

[jlb1705]

The Wilson/Marshall situation stands out to me. You could debate whether the team truly would have got more out of the H position with Marshall that season - it could be the case that neither was truly ready. Part of me wonders if Wilson got the nod to play (and not redshirt) as part of his decision to choose Ohio State when he re-opened his recruitment late in the game.

Next season's redshirt situation will be interesting. With so many guys leaving there is a lot of playing time up for grabs. It's going to be a very young roster with a ton of guys with freshman eligibility who haven't got much time. The ones that have been here for a year should have a leg up, but I expect interesting competitions across the depth chart.

In a strange way I'm looking forward to next season more than I looked forward to this one. I'll miss the guys that are leaving and am thankful for everything they accomplished that made me so happy as a fan. One of the fun things about college football though is that it's a new team every season, and that'll be even more true of the Buckeyes in 2016.

 

[jlb1705]

I know Special Teams are important and Urban really stresses them, but I'm still not convinced those are quality reps. Zeke made some nice plays on coverage units in 2013, but if he wasn't there are we certain his replacement means terrible performance? To me, we got two years out of Zeke. So, redshirt or not, that's still two years.

You're saying that like you think he should have redshirted, which makes no sense. He was never going to start as a freshman ahead of Hyde, a top-ten all-time Ohio State RB. He clearly showed himself throughout his three years as a gifted player who gave relentless effort, was highly coachable and was eager to do all of the little things that don't show up in a box score. That's EXACTLY the kind of guy you want on kickoff coverage. That year wasn't a waste - it was a privilege that he earned. I guarantee you that Elliott himself would say he would have rather been on the field covering kicks than redshirting that season.

Also, all of that is kind of ignoring that he got on the field as a RB in seven games that year.

 

[ScriptOhio]

Cool list. Nice work. This is just what I needed today- a reminder that we have some very talented guys in the cupboard who haven't seen playing time but have been developing....and waiting their turn.

Already declared for the draft:

Jones
Elliot
Bosa
Lee
Powell
Apple
Marshall

And then there were 7; with possibly 2 more "domino's yet to fall" (i.e. Bell and Thomas).

worth....

My guess is that (at least) 9 guys are going to get significantly more playing something they would other wise get if these players decided to stay. Overall it is not a totally bad thing, I seem to remember something in the Robert Weber recruitment that he was hesitant about coming to Ohio State if he had to sit behind Elliott for 2 years. Elliot confided in him that he wouldn't be here for 2 more years, etc. In the end we got Weber. You want to recruit the best 4 & 5 star players and you have to keep them happy when you get them. These kids aren't willing to sit on the bench for 3 years "waiting their turn"; kids today just aren't as patient as kids were in years gone by. They all have (big money) NFL aspirations. If they feel that they should be playing and are not getting the opportunity, they'll transfer. With the exception of Jones, these guys going pro have been (at least) a 2 year starter. And Jones (who didn't start for 2 full years) won the biggest three games Ohio State played in since the 2002 season. I'm saying if you have any player that starts for two years and is good enough to be drafted by the NFL, that scholarship definitely wasn't wasted. They gave their best to Ohio State for 3 or 4 years; and if they feel the time is right to try for the NFL, I wish them the best in pursuing their dream. The 2016 team may not be quite as good without these players; however, the younger/newer guys need an opportunity to show what they can do on the football field too. The replacements were 4/5 star recruits just like the guys leaving. You never really can be sure, ultimately the replacements just might be as good or better than the guys they replaced.

 

[Tanner]

Thanks for putting that together. It's interesting.

Another interesting post (obviously not asking you to do it) would be to compare how much Meyer redshirts guys and how many snaps freshmen play compared to other coaches at big time programs and compared to Tressel.

One of my few complaints with Meyer is I wish he would get the guys lower on the active depth chart a few game reps. Seems like the starters are basically going to play every snap unless they get hurt. Why not get Zeke some more snaps as a freshman, maybe he would have been more prepared to start last season. Why not get Dunn (or Samuel) some more snaps at RB last season? Why not get Baker some more snaps? And so on. Half the games we play every year aren't really in doubt, seems like we could work in a few more guys at times.

 

[Bestbuck36]

I don't think he wants to redshirt and he's said as much. It should be up to the guys coming in. Either they bust it and become good enough to at least push guys for playing time, or they need more time to develop. The only thing I don't want to see personally, is a guy who might be just as good as the upper classmen redshirting because they are younger. Might as well keep the option open, even late in the season, in case of injury or early departure. It seems almost every year we hear of a guy really coming in during the playoffs/bowl break but they don't play in those games because they've redshirted. In those cases it feels like those guys only stay two more years anyway, why not let them put it on the field and be ready for the spring? I don't know the numbers on that but I'd hope the coaches really only redshirt guys who just don't happen to get on the field, not keep them off the field so that they "can" redshirt.

 

[mattynokes]

You're saying that like you think he should have redshirted, which makes no sense. He was never going to start as a freshman ahead of Hyde, a top-ten all-time Ohio State RB. He clearly showed himself throughout his three years as a gifted player who gave relentless effort, was highly coachable and was eager to do all of the little things that don't show up in a box score. That's EXACTLY the kind of guy you want on kickoff coverage. That year wasn't a waste - it was a privilege that he earned. I guarantee you that Elliott himself would say he would have rather been on the field covering kicks than redshirting that season.

Also, all of that is kind of ignoring that he got on the field as a RB in seven games that year.

No, I'm saying in the end it wouldn't matter much either way. Would not having Zeke on the field in 2013 have truly had an impact on the results? I would think having another skill player on coverage units and giving his 2-3 carries a game to someone else isn't going to mean the difference in a win or a loss.

I said, "I won't get hung up on redshirt or play right away." Zeke certainly displayed ability and a use to the team. If they don't want to redshirt and display the ability to handle themselves and add production, then go for it. Those are some of the other factors that go into the decision. Really I don't think there's a good argument against redshirting. I don't like the, "they might leave early, so you might as well play 'em" mentality. It's hard to say who will leave early and who will stay for all 4 years of eligibility. I see redshirting a player who won't have a big impact like having an option year in a contract.

 

[jlb1705]

No, I'm saying in the end it wouldn't matter much either way. Would not having Zeke on the field in 2013 have truly had an impact on the results? I would think having another skill player on coverage units and giving his 2-3 carries a game to someone else isn't going to mean the difference in a win or a loss.

I said, "I won't get hung up on redshirt or play right away." Zeke certainly displayed ability and a use to the team. If they don't want to redshirt and display the ability to handle themselves and add production, then go for it. Those are some of the other factors that go into the decision. Really I don't think there's a good argument against redshirting. I don't like the, "they might leave early, so you might as well play 'em" mentality. It's hard to say who will leave early and who will stay for all 4 years of eligibility. I see redshirting a player who won't have a big impact like having an option year in a contract.

I agree with everything you're saying, except I think there's more to it than wins and losses. It's also about player development and keeping players that have superstar potential engaged in the program. You can't necessarily do that in every case (see also, Torrance Gibson) but that has to be part of the equation in some instances. There's an argument that he became a complete player and not just a great ballcarrier in some part because of the way he was developed during his true freshman season.

 

[jwinslow]

No, I'm saying in the end it wouldn't matter much either way. Would not having Zeke on the field in 2013 have truly had an impact on the results? I would think having another skill player on coverage units and giving his 2-3 carries a game to someone else isn't going to mean the difference in a win or a loss.

I said, "I won't get hung up on redshirt or play right away." Zeke certainly displayed ability and a use to the team. If they don't want to redshirt and display the ability to handle themselves and add production, then go for it. Those are some of the other factors that go into the decision. Really I don't think there's a good argument against redshirting. I don't like the, "they might leave early, so you might as well play 'em" mentality. It's hard to say who will leave early and who will stay for all 4 years of eligibility. I see redshirting a player who won't have a big impact like having an option year in a contract.

I also dislike the cowardice driven mentality to play them in case they leave early. That said, if they are ready to help you, I like to reward warriors who will do anything to help the team.

Zeke is a savage blocker without the football and an incredibly hungry and animated player. Do I think he would have been that way in year two after redshirting ? Sure. But if he's one of the best special teamers and is not the franchise tailback, I like rewarding that effort and tenacity with playing time.

It sets the tone for a culture. The difference is that his class arrived when osu was very thin on personality and needed a culture change. By the time 2014 and 2015 arrived, the depth charts and special teams were stacked. Plus you have scholarship caliber guys like Joe burger turning down full rides to man coverage units.

Make them earn it and reward your best. The future will take care of itself.

As for negative recruiting, that one would backfire big time when osu points out the spectacular heights their players reach after redshirting, or how many of their staggering 8-9 early departures did so by redshirting and still being ready to go pro.

 

[808 Buck]

It sets the tone for a culture.

Urban devotes an entire chapter in his book to the importance of culture. If a guy doesn't buy in, he's not playing. I think someone who influences a lot of this is Marotti. He has more face time with the younger guys in what leads up to the season than any of the coaches. You better show up in January (early enrollees) or in June ready to go.

 

[kujirakira]

Hubbard - redshirted - coaches struggled with whether to burn it. Very good player, but Miller stepped up and Bosa was a monster. Lewis a solid backup. Did they truly need him?

I don't know how he doesn't redshirt. After losing Spence and Marcus, we could've used another DE for sure... but wasn't he a TE most of the season? But did he have any of the technique, to say nothing of the size to put a hand down. I guess we could've played him on special teams, but it's kind of a wash either way given our coverage units were outstanding without him.

The one player that really stands out to me is Vonn Bell. Corey Brown was not getting it done... but waited until bowl season to give Bell a shot. He did play on ST and didn't redshirt, but it's the single standout situation where I think "this kid could've played half the season" (once the Brown experiment didn't pan out)

 

[Dryden]

With Thomas announcing he's leaving, the big question is whether not playing Bell (more) and Thomas (at all) in 2013 cost the team a title shot?

 

[RugbyBuck]

With so many underclassmen declaring early, and a handful doing so two years early, the often debated topic of redshirting has resurfaced. I decided to go back and breakdown the top-200 or so recruits in the past 3 classes and analyze whether the OSU staff made the right call (I skipped 2012 because it was largely an inherited class and OSU was a mess).


14 of 15 wise choices - Marshall being the exception.

13 of 14 wise choices - Hubbard being the exception, and I think that's debatable

9/10 of 11 wise choices, with Weber as iffy and Gibson as the debate between 9 or 10.

Frankly, I'd say the staff did a remarkably good job with their choices to redshirt.

Stop letting the facts get in the way of a good internet bitch session, JDub.