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'Roids Hammer Coming Down Again Soon

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Sloop your personal bias against Kent is making you use some very weak logic in your arguments.



Sloopy45 said:
First off, you're comparing career stats. The argument was, IN THEIR PRIME, who was a better player, Kent or Knobby?
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Players don't get elected to the HOF based on their single best year. Its a career award. Also I clealy demonstarated earlier that Kents best was better than Knoblauchs. If your asking me who I would take to build a dream team its not even a question...Kent hands down.

Obviously, Kent is going to smoke Knobby in the power categories, and Knobby will smoke Kent in the speed categories.
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The only category he smokes kent in is SB's and I'll take the HR and RBI's over 30-40 SB any day of the week.

Secondly, lets take this into account: Knobby (after Puckett retired) was the best player on the Twins. Kent was a 2nd wheel to Bonds. I don't care what anybody says, if Kent doesn't have Barroid batting in front of him, he doesn't sniff an MVP. Sorry. Throw the numbers away, and just look at the players: could Kent stand alone as the best player on a team? No way.
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-If you go down that trail for Kent then you better go down it for a lot of others.
-As far as throwing numbers away and just look at players how exactly do you do that? Numbers are how a players performance is defined. Baseball is the most stat driven sport there is and thats exactly what is measured when deciding HOF credentials.
-If being the best player on the team is a requisite for HOF induction who gets left out of the HOF from the 27 Yankees?
-Kents stats haven't dropped dramatically upon leaving SF. He's still hitting 20+ HRs and 100+ RBI's for 2 different teams after leaving Bond's protection.

Thirdly, Kent is another one of those guys (a la Rafael Palmeiro, Sammy Sosa, Luis Gonzalez, Bret Boone, etc - if you catch my drift) who was in the Big Leagues FOREVER & was just a decent offensive player before coming out of nowhere to put up huge stats. You can draw your own conclusions from that.
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Simply an untrue statement. Kent hit 20+ HR his first full year in the majors(was his 3rd overall but played very little the first 2) and has only played 13 years including 2005. Thats 2 fewer than Sandberg and 12 fewer(iirc) than Hornsby.

"As far as the Jeff Kent HOF argument goes how in the hell do you put Sandberg in and not Kent?"
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Dude, its different eras - in the 80's, there was only one 2B in baseball that put up 20+ dongs, 80+ RBI, 30+ SB, a .300 AVG, & a Gold Glove every season: and his name was Ryne Sandberg. He was unquestionably the best player at his position in baseball for 10 years, and nobody else was close.

Kent can't claim anything close to that.
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Who has been better offensively than Kent at 2B for the past 13 years?

"Kent has better offensive numbers in every category and they are even in MVP's."

Doesn't matter. Kent played in the juiced ball/steroid/small ballpark era. Sandberg never had a great hitter to help him in the line-up, and played in a dead ball era.
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The 80's were far from a deadball era however the difference in era is moot, the HOF looks at career totals and how someone did vs their peers. Kent has no peer at 2B over his career. Call me when Soriano does it for 10 plus years.

"Sandberg has a bunch of GG's but Kents the all time HR leader for 2B how do you not put him in the HOF?"
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Simply because if you are the All-time leading HR hitter as a pitcher or a DH, does that mean you should have instant election to Cooperstown? No. So that shouldn't be an automatic selection for any other position. Especially since Kent has a very pedestrian total of 300 lifetime homers. If he could tack on 200 more to that total, THEN we're talking HOF.
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Pitchers aren't elected to the HOF based on offensive stats and DH is not a real position and has not been around that long as far as baseball history goes. To make such a ridiculous argument clearly shows how your bias is clouding your judgement. Also you just finished trying to tell me you could determine how players of different era's were better or worse than others. Well if hitting 300+ HR's is so fucking easy for a 2B why hasn't anyone else been able to do it?

"Kent also has better offensive stats than Joe Morgan and Tony Lazzeri."
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See the same Ryno argument above.
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So now were back to an all era's argument? If thats the case then its over because the simple cold hard fact of the matter is he has better stats than Morgan/Lazzeri and Sandberg.

"Ozzie Smith is the only one I can think of thats in for the leather."
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Brooks Robinson too.
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OK thats 2.

You just need to give up trying to make a logical argument that Jeff Kent doesn't belong in the HOF and say "I don't like Jeff Kent and hope he doesn't get elected to the HOF" that not only would be a sound statement I would agree with you 100%.
 
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Mili: "I'm not supporting either side of the argument, but 300 homers is hardly "pedestrian"."

Hey, don't get me wrong. Kent's a good offensive player. But 300 Home Runs (although impressive, especially for a middle infielder), is not an automatic bid to the HOF. Not by a long shot.

High Lonesome: "I have a hard time believing that you truely believe that "knobby" is better than kent, even if you think that there primes were similar, Chuck did nothing after his "prime" Kent has stayed consistant."

All-around, Knobby was a better player in his prime than Kent. Definately not during his Yankee years, but Knobby was the best lead-off man in baseball for 5+ years. He was great with the glove, he was a pest at the plate, took a ton of pitches, hit for a high average, had a little pop, and stole bases.

"Does Piazza get in?"

Piazza is a lock. But, you could make an argument against him due to his defensive shortcomings at a critical defensive position. However, if you look at the numbers, you can't argue against him. His numbers blow every other HOF catcher away, even the top guys: Berra, Dickey, Bench, Cochrane, etc. Its not even close. He is (offensively) to Catchers what Rogers Hornsby is to 2B.

I'm not completely agreeing or disagreeing with your statement. I'm in the grey area when it comes to Piazza.

"so now your saying that kent juices?"

Would it really surprise you if he did?

"DH's, for the most part, are players that are not good enough to be in the field and by definition should not be in the hall"

Dude, no matter what spin you NL fans want to put on it, the DH is a position in baseball. Fact. It has been since 1973 (fact), and will be around until the end of time (fact). By the same Kent rationale, Edgar Martinez and maybe even Harold Baines are HOF locks for dominating their respective positions. Edgar Martinez might be the best right handed hitter I've ever seen, but he doesn't have a HOF resume.

And as far as pitchers go, I'd be shocked if it isn't Babe Ruth who holds the HR record. So the pitcher with the most HRs is in Cooperstown.

"So Wrigley Field and Andre Dawson are nothing right?"

Sandberg won his MVP in 1984 when Dawson was an Expo. He had his best seasons without Dawson, or when Dawson was past his prime.

Jax: "Sloop your personal bias against Kent is making you use some very weak logic in your arguments."

Jax, I have no bias against Kent whatsoever. My only take is that he is NOT a Hall of Famer.

"Players don't get elected to the HOF based on their single best year. Its a career award."

And Knobby doesn't belong in the Hall either. Never said he did.

"If you go down that trail for Kent then you better go down it for a lot of others."

Fine. Throw some out there.

"As far as throwing numbers away and just look at players how exactly do you do that?"

Just watch the games. Numbers don't tell you how good a player is defensively, or baserunning, or any of the intangibles. There's a lot of stuff in baseball that can't be quantified.

I'll ask you this question: if Jeff Kent played rightfield instead of 2B, does he even sniff the Hall?? No way.

"If being the best player on the team is a requisite for HOF induction who gets left out of the HOF from the 27 Yankees?"

You can make an argument that Lazzeri & Combs don't belong in the Hall. There is no argument whatsoever for the top 2 players on the '27 Yankees.

"Simply an untrue statement. Kent hit 20+ HR his first full year in the majors(was his 3rd overall but played very little the first 2) and has only played 13 years including 2005."

Jax, Kent was a decent offensive player before SF. Period. Look at the stats. He wasn't a star. 20 HRs is decent, not spectacular. He had three teams dump him before he landed in the Bay area.

"Who has been better offensively than Kent at 2B for the past 13 years?"

Roberto Alomar was better offensively up thru 2001. Biggio was better up thru 1999. Soriano has been Kent's equal (if not better) offensively since 2002. The only year Kent can claim over those guys is 2000. One season.

Again, offensive production isn't only power. Biggio used to knock out 200 hits, 50 2B, 80 RBI, 50 SB, and a .320 AVG.

"Call me when Soriano does it for 10 plus years."

Hey, I love Sori, but he's purely a numbers guy. I'd be shocked if he doesn't have the "coveted" 2B HR record when his career is over.

"Well if hitting 300+ HR's is so fucking easy for a 2B why hasn't anyone else been able to do it?"

Because its always been a defensive position filled with punch & judy, catalyst, lead-off type players.
 
Upvote 0
Sloopy45 said:
Mili: "I'm not supporting either side of the argument, but 300 homers is hardly "pedestrian"."

Hey, don't get me wrong. Kent's a good offensive player. But 300 Home Runs (although impressive, especially for a middle infielder), is not an automatic bid to the HOF. Not by a long shot.
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Didn't say it was...it's just hardly "pedestrian". How many of the tens of thousands of players that have played major league baseball have 300+ homers?
 
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Mili: "Didn't say it was...it's just hardly "pedestrian". How many of the tens of thousands of players that have played major league baseball have 300+ homers?"

No, you're right. 'Pedestrian' was a bad choice of words on my part.
 
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Sloopy45[I said:
"So Wrigley Field and Andre Dawson are nothing right?"[/I]

Sandberg won his MVP in 1984 when Dawson was an Expo. He had his best seasons without Dawson, or when Dawson was past his prime.

.
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Suprisingly, Sandberg had his best 4 year stretch when Dawson was his teammate from '89-'92. During that time Rhyno averaged 30hr and 92 rbi while Dawson had 27hr and 92 rbi. I'd hardly say Dawson was past his prime, though. He may have helped out Sandberg a little !

You are right that he had no one to help him(aside from Dawson). I looked at the names of the turds the were on the Cubbies in the 80's and it looked aweful. Dunston was decent, but hardly a hitter that would make any pitcher lose too much sleep.
 
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Sloop if you want to use the argument that Kents numbers wouldn't get him in the HOF as a LF then just go ahead and throw out anyone but corner OF and 1B out of the HOF.

Thats simply ridiculous.

I'll show you how Kent stacks up career wise vs the 16 other HOF 2B (I left one out who played in the 1800's and didn't have any complete stats) and leave it at that. I'm not saying kents a first ballot guy but to just completely disregard the guy is asinine.

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BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>480</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=B8+C8">878</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">na</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>6</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Billy Herman</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>360</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>407</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=B9+C9">767</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">na</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>10</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Rogers Hornsby</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>424</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>577</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=B10+C10">1001</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">na</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">na</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Nap Lajoie</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>372</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>466</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=B11+C11">838</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">na</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">na</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Tony Lazzeri</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>374</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>467</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=B12+C12">841</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">na</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Bill Mazeroski</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>299</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>367</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=B13+C13">666</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>8</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>9</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Joe Morgan</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>392</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>427</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=B14+C14">819</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>5</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>9</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Jackie Robinson</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>402</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>474</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=B15+C15">876</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>6</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Ryne Sandberg</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>344</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>452</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=B16+C16">796</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>9</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>10</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Red Schoendienst</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>334</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>387</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=B17+C17">721</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>10</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Jeff Kent</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>354</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>506</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>860</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>0</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>rank</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">12th</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">2nd</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">4th</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>[/pre]

OPS is the single most reliable indicator of offensive prowress and he's 4th all time among HOF 2B. He's 2nd in SLG% and 1st in career HR's.

Also if you think being the career HR leader for a position doesn't mean anything then why did they put Fisk in the HOF? According to you 300 HR's isn't anything at all and the only way to get in is steal a lot of bases and get gold gloves. Well fisk certainly wasn't a high BA type and won exactly 1 gold glove in his career.

As far as Roberto Alomar being a better offensive player than kent, just please stop now.

Alomar had exactly 2 100+ RBI seasons in his career, Kents working on #8 as we speak(all time record for MLB 2B btw). Kents career OPS is about 50 points higher and he's got about 100 more HR's. Ditto for Biggio only he's never had a 100 RBI season.

Kents a HOFer dude. Simple as that. Power counts as much as speed.
 
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Dude, no matter what spin you NL fans want to put on it, the DH is a position in baseball. Fact. It has been since 1973 (fact), and will be around until the end of time (fact).
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I never said it wasn't a position. It is a position that old sluggers play to extend their career. All you ever hear about piazza is that he should go to the AL to extend his career. Don't get me wrong, I have all the respect in the world for martinez, ortiz, and the like, but please tell me that you recognize a difference between a guy that fields and hits and a guy that just hits.
 
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Jaxbuck said:
According to you 300 HR's isn't anything at all and the only way to get in is steal a lot of bases and

Power counts as much as speed.
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As much as this is considered the 'long ball era' , stealing bases has become a thing of the past. Aside from the few 'speed' guys currently playing, it seems that sb's are way down from the 70's and 80's. I may be full of it, but it just seems that hardly anyone steals bases anymore. Of course, will all the homers, you don't need to play small ball.
 
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