RB Maurice Clarett (B1G Freshman of the Year, National Champion)

[rhammersmith]

Hammertime: to preface, yours has to be the worst rebuttal to any of my 3,000+ posts on here, and BN.

Am I suppossed to be impressed? Lots of talk does not make one correct.

Your comeback is weak and runs around in circles.

If this were true, the courts would throw this case out. Not only have they not thrown it out, they ruled in favor of it. Hardly a precedent they would set for an argument that only runs around in circles as you claim.

But don't take my word for it, let me show you:

"My position is that it is wrong that they don't have a choice."

Correct. They don't have a choice because THEY AREN'T PHYSICALLY READY TO PLAY AT THAT LEVEL!!

Yet you are more than willing to tell them to play in the CFL if they don't want to play in college. Are we to assume that CFL players aren't the men that NFL players are?

Its no different than any company in the world: if IBM, UBS, Microsoft, whoever deems me not ready to work for them because I'm 19 years old and don't have my college degree, its not my Constitutional right that they must hire me because I MUST HAVE A CHOICE by the law of the land.

That's not even the case I have made at all. The NFL would be more than willing to allow any player they feel would sell tickets as long as it doesn't rupture their relationship with the NCAA, because without the NCAA churning out players like a factory, the NFL can't produce the talent on their own. With only 16 games a year they can't produce the revenue to support their own minor league system. It is the NCAA that is influencing this restriction. To apply it to your analogy, if IBM, UBS, Microsoft or whoever won't hire me because they don't want to damage their relationship with colleges, who can make millions of dollars off of me if I go to college, then your analogy would be similar.

The NFL is a company like any other: if you can't play, you can't be in the league. The kids should be grateful enough that there's a rule that prevents them from making the stupid decision of dropping out of college and foregoing a scholarship only to be cut and lost in life because they weren't ready to play.

As others have pointed out, it's a weak argument to make that players like Mike Williams and MoC can't play in the NFL.

You wanna know a great example of this? Kirk Lowdermilk: he was an All-Pro, in the NFL for 10+ years, is a HOF candidate, and one of the best Centers of all time. When he came to Ohio State, he was 18 years old, weighed 195 pounds soak and wet, was physically underdeveloped, wasn't exposed to a great body-building diet, and wasn't close to being physically ready for the NFL. By the time his time at OSU was over, he was a rock: cut, in the weight room for five years, eating right for a period of time, physically mature, and ready to compete at the Pro Level.

Mike Williams and MoC aren't 195 pounds soak[ing] wet and physically underdeveloped.

In football, 99.99999999% of the HS kids coming out are in the same boat. I can count on (maybe) one hand the amount of kids that're ready to play Pro ball at 18 or 19 years old.

You seem to think I am refering to more than these few million dollar talents. I'm not. 99.99% of college athletes still won't have the realistic option of going to NFL an earlier when the rules are changed.

"A baseball team can give a player a million dollar signing bonus and have him play in the minors until they give him the invitation to play in the majors."

A CFL team could've given Maurice Clarett a million dollar signing bonus over the life of a three year deal the day he graduated from Warren Harding. At the end of the three year deal, by the laws of the NFL CBA, MoC could've declared himself eligible for the Draft without losing a day. No difference there, and in fact, a more money: the CFL pays a lot more than Minor League Baseball, with maybe a few exceptions.

No CFL team would invest that amount of money into a future NFL star because he wouldn't be around long enough for them to reap the benefits of it. And as I mentioned before, saying that players are physically ready to play in the CFL and not the NFL is counterintuitive.

"As such the compensation for playing for the CFL is not much different than the compensation for playing in college."

Your whole paragraph on this topic makes no sense. Read the above sentence if you don't see what I mean.

It's not that difficult to understand. If the CFL thinks a guy is only going to stick around for a year or two, they aren't going throw money at him. In the end it's relatively the same amount of compensation as playing for a college.

"That should be for the player and the NFL to decide, but the NCAA is deciding that for them."

Once again, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!! The NCAA is prohibiting nobody from doing anything - the rule comes from the NFL and the NFLPA: if the League AND the Union (i.e. the players THEMSELVES) deem you unworthy to play, who are you to question that???

And this may be where the confussion comes from. The major reason the NFL has this rule is to appease the NCAA. It's a relationship they do not want to risk damaging as the NFL can not afford numerous minor league teams to farm their talent. Do you remember how the World League teams failed miserably in the United States?

Oh yeah, my argument here was backed up by not one but two U.S. Sumpreme Court Justices yesterday if you'd like to continue belaboring this point ..

Actually, no it was not. A stay does not over turn a ruling. It just delays the action of it. At this point Clarrett has still won, but the NFL does not have to allow him into the draft because the courts deem the decision worthy of ungoing review. For you to say the courts back up your argument then the courts would have had to at one time or another ruled in favor of the NFL, which none of them have yet.

"But for some of these athletes that's the only classes they can take to keep a GPA that keeps them eligible."

Bullshit. Anyone can do anything they want - you can take the dumbest athlete in the world, and if he legitimately applies himself to his classes, you're telling me he can't pass (at least)!??

If this is what you honestly believe, you are far too removed from society.

Helen Keller overcame major disabilities to become world famous and a great author .. the statement you just made is too dumb to even be mentioned in a Basketweaving class.

I'll be sure to tell the 60%+ of society that never went to college that in Sloopy's opinion the expected level of success from them is on par with Helen Keller.

"So you are saying that even though we agreed, you are still going to debate."

No. I said that we agreed that its not fair. That doesn't mean the system is broken, just not fair. Life isn't fair. I generate more money for my company than they pay me - a lot more .. is that fair? Nope. Is the system broken?? Nope.

So even if there was something wrong with your company's system, you wouldn't agree that it is broke because life is not fair?

"even though the courts are going back and forth on the issue"

No courts are going back and forth anymore. Case closed, as of yesterday.

Do you even understand what happened yesterday?!?!?!? Clarrett has still won the case as of this point. There is just a stay on the ruling so that the NFL can have their appeal heard.

"Yet you argue like the courts ruled in favor of the NFL."

Has the stay been lifted?? Nuff said.

A stay does not overturn the original ruling. The courts still have plenty to say.

 

[3yardsandacloud]

What, no response to my post? :tongue2:

 

[rhammersmith]

What, no response to my post? :tongue2:

It was an excellent post. The facts are there and they aren't spun to represent something they don't. I will admit I thought the number was close to 100%, but I was sure it wasn't only 30-40 schools. The actually numbers appear to be right in the middle of the claims both you and I made.

 

[Sloopy45]

Hammertime: "Yet you are more than willing to tell them to play in the CFL if they don't want to play in college. Are we to assume that CFL players aren't the men that NFL players are?"

This is a joke, right? Are you telling me that the CFL players are as big, as fast, and as skilled as the NFL players?? If the CFL was in America, it'd be a de-facto Minor League for the NFL. Let me put it to you this way: the CFL in no way, shape, form, or universe is in the same class as the NFL. Not even close. If you can't understand that, then I'm speaking with a brick wall.

"The NFL would be more than willing to allow any player they feel would sell tickets as long as it doesn't rupture their relationship with the NCAA, because without the NCAA churning out players like a factory, the NFL can't produce the talent on their own."

Wrong. Here's your fundamental mistake: the NFL doesn't need to appease the NCAA. IF your argument held any water whatsoever, then the NBA would have the same rule, because they have the same exact "working" relationship with the NCAA. How come, in your estimation, the NFL bows down to the NCAA, and yet the NBA doesn't care?? It makes no sense, and you don't know what you're talking about. The NFL has the rule in place because it doesn't want a bunch of 18 year olds jumping to the league before they're ready: they don't want them getting permanently injured or ruining what otherwise would be a great career had they stayed in school. Ask Gene Upshaw what he thinks about this issue: he has no reason to keep 18 year olds out or appease the NCAA.

"It is the NCAA that is influencing this restriction."

Wrong. WHAT!!?? Wrong. WHAT-T-T!??? WRONG. OKAYYYYYYY!!!!

"As others have pointed out, it's a weak argument to make that players like Mike Williams and MoC can't play in the NFL."

Its not an argument based on whether or not an individual or two can play in the NFL. If you let any individual in early (say, Orlando Pace, who was NFL-ready after his freshman or sophomore year) then you have to let ALL the players who want in early, and most of em are not physically ready. Do you know that six unnamed High Schoolers declared themselves Draft-eligible in the wake of MoC's first court ruling?? SIX!! I can tell you for sure: there aren't six HS'ers in this entire country ready for that jump. Maybe not even a single one. The NFL doesn't want that. To give you an example: the NBA has no problem with a LeBron James jumping early. What its trying to prevent with a rule in place is the Korleone Youngs and Kendrick Perkins of the world jumping early along with him, and ruining their careers. You can't make a rule that includes LeBron James and excludes everyone else: legally it will never fly.

"if IBM, UBS, Microsoft or whoever won't hire me because they don't want to damage their relationship with colleges, who can make millions of dollars off of me if I go to college, then your analogy would be similar"

Duh. IBM and Microsoft has the same "working" relationship with Ohio State and other colleges that the NFL does. It doesn't care if OSU & every other college ceased to exist. If it could recruit talent w/o them, it would in a heartbeat. No corporation cares about a college, and you can be sure as heck that the NFL doesn't either.

"Mike Williams and MoC aren't 195 pounds soak[ing] wet and physically underdeveloped."

Why do you keep losing the argument and bring up specific examples?? Your argument is either general or specific. We're either talking about HS players as a whole or those two players .. keep it that way, or admit that your take holds no water.

"No CFL team would invest that amount of money into a future NFL star because he wouldn't be around long enough for them to reap the benefits of it."

What about Rocket Ismail?? Tom Cousineau??? Are you joking? The CFL would give MoC a big deal in a second if he went up there. A college star here would be just as big (if not bigger) star in the CFL immediately. A CFL would get immediate returns from an 18-19 & 20 year old MoC. Even if he had every intention of leaving after three years.

"The major reason the NFL has this rule is to appease the NCAA. It's a relationship they do not want to risk damaging as the NFL can not afford numerous minor league teams to farm their talent. Do you remember how the World League teams failed miserably in the United States?"

Again, back to the stupidity of you point: how does having this rule appease the NCAA??? Has NCAA basketball lost a DIME with all the early entries?? No. The ratings for the Tournament were the same as always this year. The NFL will always mine talent from the NCAA (even if all the top guys didn't play collegiately), and will never need a minor league system. And oh yeah, you may not know this: but the World League is still in existence, is going very well overseas, and is the minor league for the NFL.

"I'll be sure to tell the 60%+ of society that never went to college that in Sloopy's opinion the expected level of success from them is on par with Helen Keller."

See, you lost the argument and can't reply: I said if people APPLIED themselves when GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY. Of the 60% of people that never went to college, I'd bet that most were never GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY to do so. Your statement, again, makes no sense.

"So even if there was something wrong with your company's system, you wouldn't agree that it is broke because life is not fair?"

Dummy!! Life is FUNDAMENTALLY not fair!! It doesn't mean that its wrong: you can't run like MoC, score like Jordan, pitch like Clemens, look like Tom Cruise, act like Robert Duvall, and obviously you're dumber than 99% of the people. Everything on earth is wrong because its not fair??? Let me tell you something: every employed person in this country generates more money for his company then he or she is getting paid: otherwise, they wouldn't be employed.

Dude, you lost. You have no idea what you're talking about. Give it up. You thought that all 117 schools generated revenue, and were shot down there too. Give it up.

 

[BuckeyeSoldier]

im sorry but this wasnt even close, rhammstein just wiped the floor with ya sloopy, all of your arguements were based around insults and denial and telling him how wrong he was.. him and 3 yards were actually presenting facts.. granted they were on opposite sides but they are the ones making valid points.. sorry im not on topic but i read this and got annoyed with all the claiming of victory out of a crash and burn defeat... i mean he rebutted you point for point, you took small parts of his post and told him he was stupid for them.. and you dont know what a stay is? im telling you right now and you can quote me if you like for future reference

"Clarett will win his case, even if he does not get in this year" - me

 

[Sloopy45]

B.S., Still a little bitter from our political debates I see .. 3yards enforced my point, dumbass .. glad I could shoot hammer down like I did to you. Also glad to know that you read like a Liberal and are as fundamentally biased as one.

 

[rhammersmith]

Hammertime: "Yet you are more than willing to tell them to play in the CFL if they don't want to play in college. Are we to assume that CFL players aren't the men that NFL players are?"

This is a joke, right? Are you telling me that the CFL players are as big, as fast, and as skilled as the NFL players??

Are you telling me that these 195 pounds soaking wet players you are so concerned about are as big, as fast, and as skilled as the CFL players?

If the CFL was in America, it'd be a de-facto Minor League for the NFL. Let me put it to you this way: the CFL in no way, shape, form, or universe is in the same class as the NFL. Not even close. If you can't understand that, then I'm speaking with a brick wall.

I never made the claim that the CFL is in the same class as the NFL. I pointed out that they are both comprised of men. If you are so concerned about 195 pound weaklings entering the NFL, why do you show no concern whatsoever about them joining the CFL?

"The NFL would be more than willing to allow any player they feel would sell tickets as long as it doesn't rupture their relationship with the NCAA, because without the NCAA churning out players like a factory, the NFL can't produce the talent on their own."

Wrong. Here's your fundamental mistake: the NFL doesn't need to appease the NCAA.

You might want to rethink that one!

IF your argument held any water whatsoever, then the NBA would have the same rule, because they have the same exact "working" relationship with the NCAA. How come, in your estimation, the NFL bows down to the NCAA, and yet the NBA doesn't care??

Because a minor league team composed of 12 players who play 60+ games a year can financially support itself, where as a minor league team composed of 35+ players who play 10-14 games can't unless the NFL throws some of it's profits at it. The NBA doesn't have to appease the NCAA as much because the CBA works. The NFL has to appease the NCAA because minor league football doesn't work.

It makes no sense, and you don't know what you're talking about.

I'll ask you again. Do you remember how the World League failed to draw enough financial support in U.S. cities? Minor league football doesn't work financially. Minor league basketball and baseball does.

The NFL has the rule in place because it doesn't want a bunch of 18 year olds jumping to the league before they're ready: they don't want them getting permanently injured or ruining what otherwise would be a great career had they stayed in school. Ask Gene Upshaw what he thinks about this issue: he has no reason to keep 18 year olds out or appease the NCAA.

Yet the teams would take guys like Williams and Clarrett despite the suppossed concern.

"It is the NCAA that is influencing this restriction."

Wrong. WHAT!!?? Wrong. WHAT-T-T!??? WRONG. OKAYYYYYYY!!!!

So we agree then.

"As others have pointed out, it's a weak argument to make that players like Mike Williams and MoC can't play in the NFL."

Its not an argument based on whether or not an individual or two can play in the NFL. If you let any individual in early (say, Orlando Pace, who was NFL-ready after his freshman or sophomore year)

WHAT?!?!?! How can you say such a blasphemous thing?!?!?!

then you have to let ALL the players who want in early, and most of em are not physically ready. Do you know that six unnamed High Schoolers declared themselves Draft-eligible in the wake of MoC's first court ruling?? SIX!! I can tell you for sure: there aren't six HS'ers in this entire country ready for that jump. Maybe not even a single one.

Then let them play in the CFL if they don't get drafted. You seem to think it's a bunch of pansies anyway.

The NFL doesn't want that.

Because the NCAA doesn't want that.

To give you an example: the NBA has no problem with a LeBron James jumping early. What its trying to prevent with a rule in place is the Korleone Youngs and Kendrick Perkins of the world jumping early along with him, and ruining their careers. You can't make a rule that includes LeBron James and excludes everyone else: legally it will never fly.

It's a good thing I am not even remotely suggesting that then.

"if IBM, UBS, Microsoft or whoever won't hire me because they don't want to damage their relationship with colleges, who can make millions of dollars off of me if I go to college, then your analogy would be similar"

Duh. IBM and Microsoft has the same "working" relationship with Ohio State and other colleges that the NFL does. It doesn't care if OSU & every other college ceased to exist. If it could recruit talent w/o them, it would in a heartbeat. No corporation cares about a college, and you can be sure as heck that the NFL doesn't either.

If you think this is true, then again you are far too removed from society. Corporations have a great vested interest in the college system. But they don't pass on great talent just because the colleges want to make millions off them first. The NFL has too because the NCAA is telling to, and the NCAA is basically it's minor league system.

"Mike Williams and MoC aren't 195 pounds soak[ing] wet and physically underdeveloped."

Why do you keep losing the argument and bring up specific examples??

Because it's these specific one in a million stars that I am talking about. The Joe Schmoes who are just hoping to be a 5th or 6th round pick after their senior year aren't affected by the rule either way.

Your argument is either general or specific. We're either talking about HS players as a whole or those two players .. keep it that way, or admit that your take holds no water.

We are talking about players who are ready for the NFL (to use YOUR example, Orlando Pace as a freshman). I don't care what how many years out of high school they are.

"No CFL team would invest that amount of money into a future NFL star because he wouldn't be around long enough for them to reap the benefits of it."

What about Rocket Ismail?? Tom Cousineau??? Are you joking? The CFL would give MoC a big deal in a second if he went up there. A college star here would be just as big (if not bigger) star in the CFL immediately. A CFL would get immediate returns from an 18-19 & 20 year old MoC. Even if he had every intention of leaving after three years.

And the compensation would barely be a fraction of the salary of a player with the same talent in the NFL. It always has been.

"The major reason the NFL has this rule is to appease the NCAA. It's a relationship they do not want to risk damaging as the NFL can not afford numerous minor league teams to farm their talent. Do you remember how the World League teams failed miserably in the United States?"

Again, back to the stupidity of you point: how does having this rule appease the NCAA??? Has NCAA basketball lost a DIME with all the early entries?? No. The ratings for the Tournament were the same as always this year.

The argument that Lebron James would increase basketball revenue at Ohio State if he came here is certainly valid and realistic. His influence over the the entire NCAA revenue would probably be miniscule however.

The NFL will always mine talent from the NCAA (even if all the top guys didn't play collegiately), and will never need a minor league system.

They've proven a minor league football system can't support itself which is why they will always need the NCAA.

And oh yeah, you may not know this: but the World League is still in existence, is going very well overseas, and is the minor league for the NFL.

Exactly. It works only in areas that don't have football, only in the NFL's offseason, and only with a small number of teams. It could never reach the level of the CBA or minor league baseball... or minor league hockey for that matter.

"I'll be sure to tell the 60%+ of society that never went to college that in Sloopy's opinion the expected level of success from them is on par with Helen Keller."

See, you lost the argument and can't reply: I said if people APPLIED themselves when GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY. Of the 60% of people that never went to college, I'd bet that most were never GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY to do so. Your statement, again, makes no sense.

Lost the argument? You are the one that says anyone can pass college level work. That argument in itself doesn't even need to be debated as not only is it ludicrous it is insulting to college graudates everywhere.

"So even if there was something wrong with your company's system, you wouldn't agree that it is broke because life is not fair?"

Dummy!! Life is FUNDAMENTALLY not fair!! It doesn't mean that its wrong: you can't run like MoC, score like Jordan, pitch like Clemens, look like Tom Cruise, act like Robert Duvall, and obviously you're dumber than 99% of the people. Everything on earth is wrong because its not fair??? Let me tell you something: every employed person in this country generates more money for his company then he or she is getting paid: otherwise, they wouldn't be employed.

You didn't answer the question. If there WAS something wrong with your company's system, would you say it's not broke because life is not fair?

Dude, you lost. You have no idea what you're talking about. Give it up. You thought that all 117 schools generated revenue, and were shot down there too. Give it up.

Who gives a rats ass if all 117 schools generate revenue. You could provide the same stats for basketball players and say the average basketball player generates $22K for his school. But it would be ludicrous to make the claim that if Lebron James came to Ohio State he would only generate $22K for the school.

 

[BuckeyeSoldier]

no sloopy, 3 yards has made a good arguement,and that was acknowledged but rham has picked apart point for point every arguement youve made, just like i did.. and you have nothing but insults to back it up..

 

[Sloopy45]

Hammertime, I'll get to you in a sec. First, to B.S.: "no sloopy, 3 yards has made a good arguement,and that was acknowledged but rham has picked apart point for point every arguement youve made, just like i did.. and you have nothing but insults to back it up.."

a.) B.S. Argument is spelled argument. For someone who's always trying to tell me how smart he is, make sure you get that right.

b.) You couldn't tell me who was winning the argument, because obviously, you're not reading the posts. First you tell me that hammer & 3yards shot me down, now you say that 3yards made a completely different point than me .. all the time, you're failing to realize that his post backed up my point. You're obviously some loser who still has hurt feelings after getting drilled by yours truly. And anybody who would try and come in to a discussion just to say that I'm losing (when hammer obviously knows nothing about what he's talking about, unless you think the CFL is just as good as the NFL too) without making a point of his own obviously has no other agenda than that.

Now, its Hammer-time: "Are you telling me that these 195 pounds soaking wet players you are so concerned about are as big, as fast, and as skilled as the CFL players?"

I'm telling you that these 195 pound players are bigger, faster, and more skilled than CFL players. I'm dropping this, because obviously, you have no idea what you're talking about. But, let me give you an example (PLEASE TRY AND REPLY TO THIS SPECIFIC POINT): take the best H.S. player right now, say Ted Ginn. I'm sure that Ted Ginn could play in the CFL this very second. No question about it. If Ginn expressed interest, the Toronto Argonauts would sign him yesterday. Now, Ginn is an 18 year old and still has filling out to do, i.e. he's ready to play at the collegiate level or a minor league, but he's not yet physically ready to take the pounding of a 16 game NFL Season with 350+ lb. Linemen, 250+ lb. TEs, etc. who are commonplace. Are you seeing the difference?? Are you still trying to tell me that the CFL players are as big & strong as NFL players??

Sorry I can't resist: obviously B.S. agrees with this point of yours, because he knows that all the CFL players are just as big and strong as NFL players.

"I pointed out that they are both comprised of men."

So what? Are you that stupid?? I weigh 170 pounds. Orlando Pace weights 300+ pounds. I'm a man. He's a man. If he and I took turns trying to block you and throw you to the ground, who's block do you think would hurt more?? Which one of our blocks has more of a likelihood (sp?) of maybe doing serious damage to your body?? Under your rationale, because Orlando and I are both men, we are able to do the same amount of damage on a football field.

Are you seeing the difference here?? But take heart: B.S. thinks that I'm just as physically intimidating as Orlando Pace.

"If you are so concerned about 195 pound weaklings entering the NFL, why do you show no concern whatsoever about them joining the CFL?"

Because, put quite simply, a 195 pound 18 year old can physically withstand and thrive in the CFL against players who are in his own weight, size, and strength level ranges. A 195 pound player cannot do the same in the NFL. A 195 pound 18 year old who's not physically mature on the field during an NFL game would get hurt.

I hope you can try and understand this. But at least B.S. agrees with you.

"You might want to rethink that one!"

In the immortal words of Al Bundy: "Eh, no Peg."

"The NBA doesn't have to appease the NCAA as much because the CBA works."

This one is priceless. You know that the CBA went bankrupt a few years ago right?? That it doesn't exist anymore?? Are you trying to tell me that the CBA had put more players into the NBA than the NCAA does??? The NBA has the EXACT SAME working relationship with the NCAA that the NFL does. Both leagues' main pool of talent comes from the NCAA, at at least a 95% clip. There's no reason why one league has to have a rule to appease the NCAA and the other doesn't, other than the fact that you don't know what you're talking about.

B.S. still thinks the CBA exists. He went to a game last night.

"I'll ask you again. Do you remember how the World League failed to draw enough financial support in U.S. cities? Minor league football doesn't work financially."

No, minor league football doesn't work financially in AMERICA. Minor league football is thriving in Europe. There's a big difference between something not working altogehter, and something not working here. Are you trying to tell me that the World League isn't a minor league football system right now?? Do you know who Jake Delhomme or Kurt Warner is?? They came from there. But, in your mind, NFL Europe doesn't exist.

B.S. agrees with you. I tried to watch an NFL Europe game with him this past summer and he thought it was an action movie. I couldn't get it through his mind that it wasn't "The Replacements 2."

"Yet the teams would take guys like Williams and Clarrett despite the suppossed concern."

Dummy. Are you hearing me??? IF there's no age restriction for the Draft, the NFL would be getting Mike Williams, Maurice Clarett, and (if you follow recruiting) Ted Ginn, Reggie Bush, Willie Williams, & a slew of H.S. Seniors and College Freshmen that aren't ready. Please read: LEGALLY YOU CAN'T ACCEPT ONE AND EXCLUDE THE OTHERS!! The NFL would love to have a talent like Mike Williams right now. But, it has no interest in accepting Ginn, High Schoolers, Freshmen, and true Sophomores right now. Apparently, they'd rather wait a year for Williams than have to take on a slew of kids, that's the trade-off.

<Insert B.S. Insult here.>

"Because the NCAA doesn't want that."

Correct. But the NCAA has no power to stop it. The NCAA doesn't want basketball players going directly to the NBA, but it couldn't stop that from happening, could it??

"The argument that Lebron James would increase basketball revenue at Ohio State if he came here is certainly valid and realistic. His influence over the the entire NCAA revenue would probably be miniscule however."

That's my point. The NCAA hasn't lost a NICKEL because of NBA defections. It wouldn't lose anything if there was an early entry rule in the NFL, either. There's nothing to support your NFL/NCAA Conspiracy theory whatsoever.

B.S. belives in Conspiracy theories. He believes that the NFL and NCAA conspired to have JFK killed.

"It could never reach the level of the CBA or minor league baseball... or minor league hockey for that matter."

In what world do you live in?? What sports do you watch??? In your eyes, the CBA (which, I repeat, went bankrupt and doesn't exist anymore - a brilliant choice for your example of a working, thriving minor league system, btw) and the CFL are the Greatest and most challenging leagues!!

B.S. gave up his NFL and NBA Season tickets for CFL and CBA Season tickets this past season: he says that the CBA games are tough to watch because the Arena's so dark when he's in there.

 

[rhammersmith]

Now, its Hammer-time: "Are you telling me that these 195 pounds soaking wet players you are so concerned about are as big, as fast, and as skilled as the CFL players?"

I'm telling you that these 195 pound players are bigger, faster, and more skilled than CFL players.

Not only have you insulted college graduates everywhere by claiming that ANYONE can pass college level courses, now you just told the CFL players that 195 pound high schoolers are bigger, faster, and more skilled than they are. Let me remind you once again that the United States Judicial System has declared Clarrett the winner. That means that you are currently debating the losing side (I acknowledge that it still can be overturned), so it's probably not a good idea to continue down the path of insulting college graduates and professional athletes in the attempt to convince me that the United States Judicial System's current ruling is wrong.

I'm dropping this, because obviously, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Fantastic! Now you have just insulted the United States Judicial System as well, because they agree with me, so obviously in your opinion they must not know what they're are talking about as well.

But, let me give you an example (PLEASE TRY AND REPLY TO THIS SPECIFIC POINT): take the best H.S. player right now, say Ted Ginn. I'm sure that Ted Ginn could play in the CFL this very second. No question about it. If Ginn expressed interest, the Toronto Argonauts would sign him yesterday. Now, Ginn is an 18 year old and still has filling out to do, i.e. he's ready to play at the collegiate level or a minor league, but he's not yet physically ready to take the pounding of a 16 game NFL Season with 350+ lb. Linemen, 250+ lb. TEs, etc. who are commonplace. Are you seeing the difference??

That is for Ted Ginn and the teams thinking about drafting him to decide, not the NCAA.

Are you still trying to tell me that the CFL players are as big & strong as NFL players??

I never did. I said they are both comprised of men. The only claim made about the size and strength of the players was made by you, and somehow you think the men in the CFL aren't as big, as fast, and as skilled as a 195 pound high schooler.

Sorry I can't resist: obviously B.S. agrees with this point of yours, because he knows that all the CFL players are just as big and strong as NFL players.

Considering I never made that claim, it's impossible for B.S. to agree with a claim I never made.

"I pointed out that they are both comprised of men."

So what? Are you that stupid?? I weigh 170 pounds.

Are you a CFL player? If not, it really doesn't matter to the debate what you weigh does it?

Orlando Pace weights 300+ pounds. I'm a man. He's a man. If he and I took turns trying to block you and throw you to the ground, who's block do you think would hurt more?? Which one of our blocks has more of a likelihood (sp?) of maybe doing serious damage to your body?? Under your rationale, because Orlando and I are both men, we are able to do the same amount of damage on a football field.

What does this have to do with proving your point that the men in the CFL aren't as big, fast, and as skilled as a 195 high schooler? When Pace came out of high school he wasn't 195 pounds. I think many would make the case that Pace could have played in the NFL right out of High school, and you even made the case that he could have played after his freshmen year. Yet he had to wait three years so the NCAA could profit off him first.

Are you seeing the difference here??

No. I still fail to see how a 195 high schooler is bigger, faster and more skilled that CFL players. However it is easy to see how Orlando Pace out of high school was bigger, faster and more skilled than CFL players and probably ready to play in the NFL.... WHICH IS A GREAT EXAMPLE OF THE ENTIRE POINT I HAVE BEEN MAKING!

But take heart: B.S. thinks that I'm just as physically intimidating as Orlando Pace.

You really have a superiority complex! Heck, you think you are right even when the United States Judicial System says you are wrong.

"If you are so concerned about 195 pound weaklings entering the NFL, why do you show no concern whatsoever about them joining the CFL?"

Because, put quite simply, a 195 pound 18 year old can physically withstand and thrive in the CFL against players who are in his own weight, size, and strength level ranges. A 195 pound player cannot do the same in the NFL. A 195 pound 18 year old who's not physically mature on the field during an NFL game would get hurt.

You really have no respect at all for the CFL do you?

By the way, not only is it sad that you think CFL players are weaker, slower, and less skilled that 195 pound high schoolers, but it is neither hear nor there regarding the case I make. I am talking about players that are physically ready for the NFL either right out of high school, one year removed, or two years removed. Why you think a 195 pounder is in that group is beyond me.

I hope you can try and understand this. But at least B.S. agrees with you.

And don't forget the United States Judicial System currently agrees with me as well.

"You might want to rethink that one!"

In the immortal words of Al Bundy: "Eh, no Peg."

That superiority complex really has complete control over you doesn't it. Considering the United States Judicial System disagrees with, you really might want to rethink that one.

"The NBA doesn't have to appease the NCAA as much because the CBA works."

This one is priceless. You know that the CBA went bankrupt a few years ago right?? That it doesn't exist anymore??

You mean this one: http://www.cbahoopsonline.com/ which just just finished its 2003-2004 season in march doesn't exist anymore? No, I was not aware that in the last 30 days it decided to cease its existance. (note: pointing out the sarcasm in case your superiority complex misses it)

Are you trying to tell me that the CBA had put more players into the NBA than the NCAA does???

No. I am saying that the NBA doesn't have to appease the NCAA because minor league basketball can produce players: from http://www.cbahoopsonline.com/

Total roster spots held by former CBA players on 2002-03 NBA training camp rosters: 75
Total number of former CBA players on 2002-03 NBA training camp rosters: 73
Total number of 2001-02 CBA players on 2002-03 NBA training camp rosters: 17

Total number of CBA players on 2002-03 NBA opening night rosters: 39
Current number of former CBA players on 2002-03 NBA regular season rosters: 42
Total roster spots held by former CBA players on 2002-03 NBA teams: 56

Atlanta (4): Emanuel Davis, Jermaine Jackson, (Amal McCaskill), Ira Newble, (Paul Shirley), Brandon Williams
Boston (1): Mark Blount, (Mikki Moore)
Chicago (1): Rick Brunson
Dallas (2): Raja Bell, Adrian Griffin
Denver (1): (Mark Blount), (Art Long), Chris Whitney
Detroit (2): Chucky Atkins, Michael Curry
Golden State (1): Earl Boykins
Houston (2): Juaquin Hawkins, Moochie Norris
Indiana (1): Erick Strickland
Los Angeles Clippers (1): Tremaine Fowlkes
Miami (4): Anthony Carter, Mike James, Ken Johnson, Sean Lampley
Milwaukee (1): ): Anthony Mason, (Kevin Ollie)
Minnesota (1): Troy Hudson, (Reggie Slater)
New Jersey (3): Chris Childs, Jamie Feick, Aaron Williams
New Orleans (1): (Randy Livingston), David Wesley
New York (1): Howard Eisley, Mark Pope
Orlando (2): ): Darrell Armstrong, Chris Whitney
Philadelphia (1): Greg Buckner, (Art Long)
Phoneix (1): Bo Outlaw
Portland (2): Jeff McInnis, Charles Smith
Sacramento (1): Damon Jones
San Antonio (2): Bruce Bowen, (Anthony Goldwire), Stephen Jackson
Seattle (2):Kevin Ollie, Ansu Sesay
Toronto (3): Rafer Alston, Maceo Baston, (Nate Huffman), (Jermaine Jackson), Voshon Lenard, (Art Long)
Washington (1): Anthony Goldwire
( ) Indicates player has been traded or waived

Producing talent for a sport that only starts five players is completely different than producing talent for a sport that starts 24 players. Minor league football in the United States collapses financially immediately. Minor league basketball, baseball and hockey, can sustain themsleves.

The NBA has the EXACT SAME working relationship with the NCAA that the NFL does.

Not accodring the United States Judicial System.

Both leagues' main pool of talent comes from the NCAA, at at least a 95% clip. There's no reason why one league has to have a rule to appease the NCAA and the other doesn't, other than the fact that you don't know what
you're talking about.

You do realize that a starting roster for an NFL rules football team is 24 players, right? You also realize that 24 starting players is more than the entire roster of other minor league sports, right? Regardless, you are still going to claim that the NFL has no more reason to appease the NCAA than other sports, right?

B.S. still thinks the CBA exists. He went to a game last night.

Impossible. Their season ended in March.

"I'll ask you again. Do you remember how the World League failed to draw enough financial support in U.S. cities? Minor league football doesn't work financially."

No, minor league football doesn't work financially in AMERICA.

DING DING DING DING DING! We finally have a WINNER! (something tells me he is still going to argue though.)

Minor league football is thriving in Europe.

Thriving? No. It's surviving.

There's a big difference between something not working altogehter, and something not working here.

I never made the case that it doesn't work altogether, in fact I am the one who pointed out it is working in Europe. And I am just waiting for the moment where you tell us all the 195 pound high schoolers are bigger, faster, and more skilled than NFL Europe players.

Are you trying to tell me that the World League isn't a minor league football system right now??

Nope, never made that claim either. My point as you intentionally miss is that the NFL has 1376 players at all times and no minor league system will ever be able to support that pool size, and as such the NFL needs the NCAA far more than the NBA who only need 400 players at all times.

Do you know who Jake Delhomme or Kurt Warner is?? They came from there. But, in your mind, NFL Europe doesn't exist.

Kurt Warner came from the Arena Football league.

B.S. agrees with you. I tried to watch an NFL Europe game with him this past summer and he thought it was an action movie. I couldn't get it through his mind that it wasn't "The Replacements 2."

Most Americans ignore NFL Europe all together anyway.

"Yet the teams would take guys like Williams and Clarrett despite the suppossed concern."

Dummy. Are you hearing me??? IF there's no age restriction for the Draft, the NFL would be getting Mike Williams, Maurice Clarett,

EXACTLY!

and (if you follow recruiting) Ted Ginn, Reggie Bush, Willie Williams, & a slew of H.S. Seniors and College Freshmen that aren't ready.

That is up to Ted Ginn, Reggie Bush, Willie Williams, a slew of H.S. Seniors and College Freshmen, and the NFL teams to decide. It's not for the NCAA, who stands to make a good profit from these players if the go to college, to decide. And in case you missed it the numerous other times I pointed it out, the United States Judicial System currently agrees with this claim.

Please read: LEGALLY YOU CAN'T ACCEPT ONE AND EXCLUDE THE OTHERS!!

and once again I will point out that I never even made this suggestion.

The NFL would love to have a talent like Mike Williams right now.

So does the NCAA. Let's not ignore that. He will profit whoever he plays for this fall.

But, it has no interest in accepting Ginn, High Schoolers, Freshmen, and true Sophomores right now.

They aren't REQUIRED to draft them!

Apparently, they'd rather wait a year for Williams than have to take on a slew of kids, that's the trade-off.

Apparently they rather not, as Williams was slated to be a top 10 pick.

<INSERT here. Insult B.S.>

"Because the NCAA doesn't want that."

Correct. But the NCAA has no power to stop it.

Power? No. Influence? Most certainly yes.

The NCAA doesn't want basketball players going directly to the NBA, but it couldn't stop that from happening, could it??

Because the NBA doesn't need the NCAA nearly as much as the NFL needs the NCAA. The NCAA's influence on the NBA is a fraction of its influence on the NFL.

"The argument that Lebron James would increase basketball revenue at Ohio State if he came here is certainly valid and realistic. His influence over the the entire NCAA revenue would probably be miniscule however."

That's my point. The NCAA hasn't lost a NICKEL because of NBA defections.

Wrong. If Lebron James went to an NCAA school, he most certainly would have increased revenue at that school. However when you average that increase across 300+ Division I colleges, you could say it is so small that it doesn't exist, but it most certainly does to that college.

It wouldn't lose anything if there was an early entry rule in the NFL, either. There's nothing to support your NFL/NCAA Conspiracy theory whatsoever.

As I pointed out before, the NCAA did lose out on revenue by Lebron James not coming to college.

B.S. belives in Conspiracy theories. He believes that the NFL and NCAA conspired to have JFK killed.

This is neither here nor there.

"It could never reach the level of the CBA or minor league baseball... or minor league hockey for that matter."

In what world do you live in?? What sports do you watch??? In your eyes, the CBA (which, I repeat, went bankrupt and doesn't exist anymore - a brilliant choice for your example of a working, thriving minor league system, btw) and the CFL are the Greatest and most challenging leagues!!

As I pointed out before, NFL rules football has far more starters alone, than other sports need on their entire rosters. Because of this it is far more costly to run minor league football than it is to run minor league basketball, baseball, or hockey. By the way the CBA is still around. It hit financial troubles but only after 55+ years of existance, where as minor league football teams in the United States fold almost immediately.

B.S. gave up his NFL and NBA Season tickets for CFL and CBA Season tickets this past season: he says that the CBA games are tough to watch because the Arena's so dark when he's in there.

Your jokes are funny, but only because they ignorantly claim the CBA doesn't exist.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

Kosar/Stoops comments on Clarett situation

Kosar: "They're going to be ruled ineligible in college, and they can't play in the NFL," Kosar said. "That's incredibly unfair."

Cry me a f*ckin' river. Although I've been more of a Clarett supporter than most, I think he shit in his own bed and now he has to sleep in it.

Stoops: "The NFL has a right to determine what their criteria is to play in the league," Stoops said. "But there's also the right to work. In the end, the courts will decide."

The "right to work" is totally, completely, irrelevant. If it were relevant, then everyone in the world would say they have a right to play pro football. No one has a "right" to do shit. You have to the right of "the pursuit of happiness", but not the right to have it handed to you.

 

[Helpinghand]

Bernie lives next door to me. I have talked to him a lot about Clarrett and he just thinks that he has some really bad advisors (including his mother Michelle)

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

HH, I agree with his mother being a very big and bad influence. He still is big boy, though, and should make his own decisions. Being a fellow Youngstowner, I would like to see him succeed, but I think he's really hurt himself here.

 

[FCollinsBuckeye]

Kosar: "They're going to be ruled ineligible in college, and they can't play in the NFL," Kosar said. "That's incredibly unfair."

Well, seems to me it would be 'incredibly unfair' if the players in question hadn't made the choice to try and jump to the NFL. But they knowingly made that choice, and knew darn well their college eligibility would be forfeit. As Mililani said, they sh*t their own bed, now they gotta sleep in it.

Bernie lives next door to me.

hehe you rock, HH. :cheers: I wish I could have been in C-bus last weekend to meet you in person. I love reading your insight/comments on this board. :)

 

[BuckeyeTrail]

everyone has a right to play pro football. the difference is, if i were to declare myself eligible for the nfl draft, i would not get selected and i would not earn a paycheck, because I suck. Clarett, williams, et. al. are good enough to get drafted. they are good enough to earn a paycheck in the NFL. how old is larry fitzgerald compared to mike williams? is there something about larry's body that will enable him to withstand the rigors of the NFL, whereas mike williams would surely break all of his bones? the rule exists to make the nfl and the ncaa richer, not to "protect" these "fragile" 20 year olds. I am glad the rule is in place from a fan's perspective, but to live in the United States of America and believe with all your heart that this rule is morally just, is laughable. If Clarett loses this case, it will be a good day for NFL and NCAA fans and teams, but a dark day in that it will erode our faith in the courts.