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NightmaresDad
Woody Rules!
StadiumDorm;629886; said:
And they also show, as Clevebucks indicated, that the parents need to be looked at as well.
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NightmaresDad;629995; said:
What if the situation was reversed...caucasian kids in an african-american school...would we still say to look at the parents?
Immediately, one wants to say "of course..."
Realistically, that answer may not be as easy for some...
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jimotis4heisman
Banned
i dont know how you can draw any conclusions from that article. that being said i always thought all school discipline was interesting. whether it be race, money, popularity it never seemed equal. that being said i learned keeping your mouth shut and respecting those in authority went a long way.
that being said the thing i really dont like about the way things are handled, i was always told to be honest, so many times you see/hear about a kid being honest and being made an example of and then the kid who lies about what he does gets off easy.
that being said im not a teacher, admin, coach or involved daily with school kids and schools everyday like some of you guys. youre ability to "forsee" issues is much greater than mine.
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stxbuck;630090; said:
Sure. We have a rule where all shirts must be tucked in (I think everyone in education has seen the video of the kid with the baggy shirt and pants pulling out an arsenal of various weapons). I've watched teachers not pay any attention to certain kids with their shirts out while chastising others for having theirs untucked. Same thing in terms of disciplining the same kids...some kids get multiple warnings while others are suspended immediately. I don't want to say it is all based on race, but sometimes I think it is. I see more of the quick stereotyping based on appearance...
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scooter1369
HTTR Forever.
Kids develop a reputation in school for bieng trouble makers. It only takes one incident to take a single kid and put him under a microscope.
In the grad's scenerio of some kids hearing about their shirts not being tucked in while others don't, maybe the kids hearing about it are constant repeat offenders who just ignore the rules, while the kid who didn't have anything said to him is an honor student who just left gym and forgot to tuck it in.
While I'm not ready to dismiss race as an issue, because it still is, I'm also not ready to accept that everytime a black kid gets in trouble, its race related, as some would have you believe.
I have seen my fair share of racism. In both directions. But I see substantially less of it today than I did 20 years ago.
In the grad's scenerio of some kids hearing about their shirts not being tucked in while others don't, maybe the kids hearing about it are constant repeat offenders who just ignore the rules, while the kid who didn't have anything said to him is an honor student who just left gym and forgot to tuck it in.
While I'm not ready to dismiss race as an issue, because it still is, I'm also not ready to accept that everytime a black kid gets in trouble, its race related, as some would have you believe.
I have seen my fair share of racism. In both directions. But I see substantially less of it today than I did 20 years ago.
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fourteenandoh
My swing feels like an unfolding lawn chair.
right or wrong i'm not commenting on that. however, it does come peculiarly close to fitting the 80/20 rule. 80% of occurances come from 20% of the population. i learned about that phenomenon in intro stats.
grad, do you think that the fact you are in south carolina could have anything to do with what you see at school? i know ohio isn't the most racially accepting state but i would imaging that SC is worse.
grad, do you think that the fact you are in south carolina could have anything to do with what you see at school? i know ohio isn't the most racially accepting state but i would imaging that SC is worse.
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This is an area in which I conduct research (but in the marketing context).
As I read the things you guys had written, I was a bit shocked at how true it rang for me, especially the two teachers in the crowd that I recognize.
Grad21's observations are supported by research. People don't discipline members of other groups more harshly but they are more likely to be lenient in the case of kids from their own perceived identity group. This is why the teachers who are biased in the way they discipline students feel that they are being incorrectly labelled as racist. They did not discriminate unfairly by being over harsh against students from another group and they don't really correctly perceive their positive bias toward kids from their own group. After all, they let black and white kids "slide" from time to time; it's just that they don't realize that kids perceived to be from another group are allowed to slide far less than others.
As Thump's observations in his own teaching suggest, group isn't always denoted by race. Socioeconomic status is a powerful signal. Kids who make their way into the "troublemakers" group also will be less likely to be allowed to get away with violating rules. Neighborhood versus "bussed-in" kids can be another group difference.
Whatever the case, the research suggests that bias against social groups is preconscious and happens instantly. It happens outside our conscious thoughts, before we think about it. That's why we all do it but then tell ourselves that we don't.
As I read the things you guys had written, I was a bit shocked at how true it rang for me, especially the two teachers in the crowd that I recognize.
Grad21's observations are supported by research. People don't discipline members of other groups more harshly but they are more likely to be lenient in the case of kids from their own perceived identity group. This is why the teachers who are biased in the way they discipline students feel that they are being incorrectly labelled as racist. They did not discriminate unfairly by being over harsh against students from another group and they don't really correctly perceive their positive bias toward kids from their own group. After all, they let black and white kids "slide" from time to time; it's just that they don't realize that kids perceived to be from another group are allowed to slide far less than others.
As Thump's observations in his own teaching suggest, group isn't always denoted by race. Socioeconomic status is a powerful signal. Kids who make their way into the "troublemakers" group also will be less likely to be allowed to get away with violating rules. Neighborhood versus "bussed-in" kids can be another group difference.
Whatever the case, the research suggests that bias against social groups is preconscious and happens instantly. It happens outside our conscious thoughts, before we think about it. That's why we all do it but then tell ourselves that we don't.
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SparkyOSU
...????
gregorylee;629834; said:
What sucks is tommorow the same mother will get up and say her child was beaten up at school because the lack of discipline has led to a violent school!
Everyone always has a problem with the way someone does something... smack your own damn kid if he gets in trouble enough to be punished at school....
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gregorylee
I'd rather be napping!!
My other take on this, not so much this specific case, but children and discipline in general.
...a mini rant - There is a difference between spanking and beating, there is are points where "time out" will get the point across, and others where it loses effectiveness. All this "no winners, no losers", "I don't physically discipline my children". Maybe for some it is the way to go. I don't discipline my children because I want to hurt them, I do it because I love them. I want them to understand what is socially acceptable, and morally acceptable, and moreover what isn't. In my eyes my two boys are angles, but in the real world, they make mistakes and push boundaries. It is my job to teach them where there is leniency and where there isn't. They need to realize that there is a penance (consequence) for everything, call it Karma, or your Dad whoopin that azz for mouthing off to a teacher. In the same token, good grades gets you cool things like extra trips to the batting cage (no grad, I haven't been able to afford that JUGS machine yet :)), or movies, ice cream, whatever...
If I had the $$ (or they accepted vcash
) I would be sending my kids to catholic school so the Nun's would be doing the whoopin and I wouldn't have to, but alas...
...a mini rant - There is a difference between spanking and beating, there is are points where "time out" will get the point across, and others where it loses effectiveness. All this "no winners, no losers", "I don't physically discipline my children". Maybe for some it is the way to go. I don't discipline my children because I want to hurt them, I do it because I love them. I want them to understand what is socially acceptable, and morally acceptable, and moreover what isn't. In my eyes my two boys are angles, but in the real world, they make mistakes and push boundaries. It is my job to teach them where there is leniency and where there isn't. They need to realize that there is a penance (consequence) for everything, call it Karma, or your Dad whoopin that azz for mouthing off to a teacher. In the same token, good grades gets you cool things like extra trips to the batting cage (no grad, I haven't been able to afford that JUGS machine yet :)), or movies, ice cream, whatever...
If I had the $$ (or they accepted vcash
) I would be sending my kids to catholic school so the Nun's would be doing the whoopin and I wouldn't have to, but alas...
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scooter1369;630218; said:
I'm not labeling it as racism either...I am labeling it as an inconsistency that apparently has numerous variables. Wha I do see is the instant "thug" label and the instant "good ole boy" label. Sure, the scenario of the repeat offender comes into play sometimes...but often, it does not. It is a snap reaction based on the earrings in the boys ear along with his cornrows...or the carhart jeans and workboots. It is a blind assumption...
Not once did I say that every time a black kid gets in trouble that it is race related...that is an extreme example. Nobody has said anything about the obvious problems of blatant racism from either side.
All that I have said is that the obvious discrepancy in the discipline deserves a closer look. There may not be a thing there...then agin, there could be.
As I said earlier, in my opinion, a quick dismissal of this claim is problematic.
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First, what constitutes "discipline"? Expulsion? Suspension? Detention? This makes a big difference when painting a picture of how a school's administration is treating its student populous.
Second, percentages don't always paint an accurate picture. Let's say a high school has 1000 students, with 15.4%, thus 154, minority students. Pretty cut-and-dry. But, what is "75 percent of the discipline"? Six of eight incidents? 30 of 40 incidents? If the school considers "discipline" as suspension and expulsion, and only eight kids of 1,000 were disciplined, the fact that six were minorities isn't necessarily indicative of racial-imbalance. However, if "discipline" entails everything down to--and including--detention and extra duties, and 30 of 40 kids (out of 1,000) punished were minorities, then something may be awry...
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