QB Kirk ‘Nightmare On’ Herbstreit (Frosted Quips, Afraid of THE Lunatic Fringe)

[OSU_D/]

Were those plays a result of UF getting their players in space?? Having amobile QB who can run the football, tends to allow RB's, motioned players into the backfield, have an easier time getting the ball in space, as the defense has to account for the QB.

Maybe OU's running game is dependent on physical running because they don't have a mobile QB that demands a spy and or defensive responsbilities.

How much did OU's fastest RB and top 10 RB Demarco Murray not playing effect OU's gameplan??

Murray was a HUGE loss, no doubt. But as you know Harvin was less than 100% and Rainey left the game w/ an injury.

I just didn't see any speed discrepency tonight. UF is undoubtedly fast. Demps, Harvin, James are 3 of the fastest players in the country. But scheme is what allows them to get the ball in space and exploit teams.

Speed is just WAY overrated IMO. Utah didn't have as much team speed as Bama. Ap. St. didn't have as much team speed as UM. Most would say tOSU didn't have the smae team speed as Miami.

I agree, somewhat. Utah and Ap St use their offensive formations to generate that space, correct? When I see UF and OU I see schools that run similar formations to those teams. So today we had both schools that knew how to use space. In addition, both UF and OU knew how to have multiple people in the backfield and run and execute. I thought it was pretty evenly matched teams, but the one that was faster and executed better (overall) won.

It comes down to execution, scheme, and heart. Urban Meyer and Charlie Strong are a hell of a combo. I think your previous post would have more weight if you talked about a coaching advantage in the SEC. That seems more apparent than team speed, IMO.

Names like Richt, Meyer, Miles, Saban, Tubberville, Spurrier, Nutt, Fulmer have just traditionally carried more weight and experience than the Big 10 coaches. I'll never root for Rodriguez, but guys like him and Beilema are bad for the conference. It's idiotic coaching moves and team philosophies more than talent, IMO.

Maybe Dantonio sticks around, and Tim Brewster gets something solid going at Minny. Maybe Schiano takes the PSU job and stabilizes a roller coaster program. Pat Fitzgerald might be able to build a consistent winner at NW. Maybe Ron Zook does what he did at UF and has an every other year monster. Kirk Ferentz hasn't worked at Iowa, but myabe they turn around with a new coach.

These aren't the Hayden Frye, John Cooper, Lloyd Carr, sane Joe Pa, Gary Barnett, Barry Alvarez, Glenn Mason days.

I'd point to coaching more than talent honestly.....where a team like LSU and UF excel in offense and defense in champuonship years, tOSU has been one dimensional, even with exceptional talent on both sides of the ball.

See post 294 when I asked a poster if he would prefer the Big 10 or the SEC's coaches and recruits. We are thinking along the same lines and I agree... our conference HAS TO GET better coaches. But part of coaching is scheme and talent evalution.... of which speed is a part.

However, to tie this back to Herbie.. my main gist is too get ready for more SEC slobbering... slobbering which has been earned over 3 years... and if the Big 10 doesn't make some changes could last much longer than 3 years.

 

[WaitingforKickoff]

the SEC would not have seceded from anything. Overstatement of the year.

The Big 10 was considered a good ocnference that year. Imagine that, the Big 10 solid in 2006.

Until tOSU got hammered in the title game.

I think there are two perspectives of that game:

1. The SEC is a MUCH BETTER conference with better talent and it showed that night.

2. tOSU showed up over-confiednt, out of shape, and unprepared. Tedd Ginn's injury took away tOSU's gameplan.

Rationally, I think it falls somewhere in the middle. But Herbie did a massive number on his national reputation when he called for a Michigan vs tOSU championship, and tOSU went on to get hammered.

Since then he has called the Big 10 slow, stuck in the 1940's, behind the times, and regularly laughs at them on the Pac-Man's show on Thursday's when he is the guest.

And all they ever talk about is speed...it has to be speed. That is a major generalization, IMO.

I'm sorry but to condemn other conference by shutting them out of an opportunity to play for the title and advocating for a rematch of two identical teams that played seven weeks before is a pretty darn big sin. I don't think you are grasping the magnitude of the situation.

It was abusing the system to the nth degree and almost killed all credibility of the game in the eyes of all the other major conferences that year.

 

[billmac91]

Murray was a HUGE loss, no doubt. But as you know Harvin was less than 100% and Rainey left the game w/ an injury.




I agree, somewhat. Utah and Ap St use their offensive formations to generate that space, correct? When I see UF and OU I see schools that run similar formations to those teams. So today we had both schools that knew how to use space. In addition, both UF and OU knew how to have multiple people in the backfield and run and execute. I thought it was pretty evenly matched teams, but the one that was faster and executed better (overall) won.



See post 294 when I asked a poster if he would prefer the Big 10 or the SEC's coaches and recruits. We are thinking along the same lines and I agree... our conference HAS TO GET better coaches. But part of coaching is scheme and talent evalution.... of which speed is a part.

However, to tie this back to Herbie.. my main gist is too get ready for more SEC slobbering... slobbering which has been earned over 3 years... and if the Big 10 doesn't make some changes could last much longer than 3 years.

I said this before though.......Herbie can slobber all he wants on the SEC, they currently deserve it.

But if he is going to knock the Big 10, he should at least present a factual argument. Not a lazy, the SEC is much faster, type argument. It's bull[censored]. And it is lazy.

Rip the Big 10 for hiring Rich Rodriguez to replace Lloyd Carr instead of saying Rich Rod is going to become a huge player in the Big 10 very shortly because he recruits speed.

Rip the Big 10 for allowing Bret Beeeeeee la ma (as my Wisconsin friend pronounces it) to continue to drive a solid program into the ground.

Rip PSU for allowing a senile old man in Joe Pa continue to drive away in state talent. Congrats, they had a very successful year. That means they'll suck for 2 more years until they bounce back and award Joe Pa another 3 year deal.

Anyways, IMO, the best analysis of conference talent is the draft. If NFL GM's think enough of a player to draft them to their team, it inherently says "this guy is better at his position than anyone else currently available."

It's dificult to compare the SEC vs. Big 10 staright up b/c they have more teams, but they aren't that far apart. The SEC is ahead, but it isn't a groundbreaking differential. Not to the point, where the SEC should be awarded our wives and daughters, and hopefully they'll show mercy on the men of the Midwest.

It's just fabricated BS, perpetuated by a lazy media. Somewhere, speed became the buzzword, and now everyone wants to use it. If a conference is doing well, they must have great speed.

Do you realize, since 2001, UF, LSU, Auburn, Tennessee, Georgia, and the rest of the SEC hasn't produced as many draft picks as tOSU. And tOSU still currently holds the draft record with 14 players selected in 2005.

And yet, UF blasted us in 2006. It had to of been speed, right??

 

[generaladm]

They are that much faster. If you remember our game against Fla., Troy was running for his life the whole game, Then in our game against Lsu, same thing, They kept Todd running for his life. Anyone who knows anything about this knows that the d line speed was the difference.
Kirk is not doing anything but stating the obvious.

How many games can you name where Boeckman was not running for his life? I think the root of the problem was more in our O-line than the opponents speed. Not saying that UF and LSU didn't have impressive D-lines those years. Todd didn't exactly tear it up against YSU and Ohio U. (comparatively). I think the bigger difference between SEC and other conferences is the philosophy of pressure vs. contain. Against LSU, their D did a great job of jamming our WRs very aggressively (to the point of deserving a penalty several times, IMO), and trusting that the all out blitz will get to the QB before the WRs break free of the (sometimes illegal) contact. Auburn and USF have run the same type of D (though not as effectively), but it can be beaten.

I do believe that the southern schools tend to have more athletic D-lineman than other regions, but look at the success that OU had running base running plays for most of the game against UF. Where was the "fast D-line" advantage then? IMO, the southern D philosophy works when they win the one on one matchups, but when they don't, there are huge gains to be had, which contain responsibilities prevent. Both can have success, but the contain strategy tends to be more consistent (when's the last time an SEC NC team went undefeated?).

 

[billmac91]

I'm sorry but to condemn other conference by shutting them out of an opportunity to play for the title and advocating for a rematch of two identical teams that played seven weeks before is a pretty darn big sin. I don't think you are grasping the magnitude of the situation.

It was abusing the system to the nth degree and almost killed all credibility of the game in the eyes of all the other major conferences that year.

And the coaches and voters didn't let it happen. If it had happen, the fingers get pointed at coaches who thought UM and tOSU were the 2 best teams, and Harris Poll voters from all parts of the country that voted for that match-up.

If teams would secede over UM vs tOSU for a championship, how about teams like USC/Texas/Utah leave this year for getting left out??

How about Texs leaves right bow for being bypassed by a 1 loss team it beat??

 

[OSU_D/]

And yet, UF blasted us in 2006. It had to of been speed, right??

In my opinion you picked the wrong game to highlight. That D line was 20x faster than OSU's oline. They lived in the backfield that game. Boone still has nightmere's of the ball being snapped and Harvey sacking Smith before Boone could take a second step. That D line epitomized speed rushing out of shape slow OT's.

 

[billmac91]

In my opinion you picked the wrong game to highlight. That D line was 20x faster than OSU's oline. They lived in the backfield that game. Boone still has nightmere's of the ball being snapped and Harvey sacking Smith before Boone could take a second step. That D line epitomized speed rushing out of shape slow OT's.

How much of that was straight speed vs. lack of preparation, being over-weight, poor scheme, lack of aggressiveness???


I don't know.

I'm not buying the SEC is on another planet in regards to speed.

Especially when guys like Harvey, Trattaou, Moss weren't/ aren't from Florida.

I'll continue to give UF credit for being hungrier, more aggressive, and having a superior game-plan in place.

Again, look at the draft that year....UF vs. tOSU wasn't even close. We had the talent, we didn't produce for whatever reason....

 

[lvbuckeye]

I agree, somewhat. Utah and Ap St use their offensive formations to generate that space, correct? When I see UF and OU I see schools that run similar formations to those teams. So today we had both schools that knew how to use space. In addition, both UF and OU knew how to have multiple people in the backfield and run and execute. I thought it was pretty evenly matched teams, but the one that was faster and executed better (overall) won.

speed had absolutely nothing to do with the Sooners leaving at least 9 and potentially 21 points on the field tonight....

 

[lvbuckeye]

I'm sorry but to condemn other conference by shutting them out of an opportunity to play for the title and advocating for a rematch of two identical teams that played seven weeks before is a pretty darn big sin. I don't think you are grasping the magnitude of the situation.

It was abusing the system to the nth degree and almost killed all credibility of the game in the eyes of all the other major conferences that year.

and he is still paying his penance for that today. Herbie hurt the Big Ten more than he could possibly comprehend with that nonsense...

 

[generaladm]

In general I am a believer that many interceptions are due to hurried throws that arrive before a receiver is ready/thrown early/etc because a fast D line gets to a qb.

In general that may work, but there are many INTs that are a result of DBs making great reads, or LBs sitting down in a zone, when the QB isn't pressured at all.

Look... I am not saying speed is the ONLY thing. I thought in general they executed better than OU, too. But I felt I saw more plays in the open field in which the UF players were faster where as OU got bigger runs on better blocking/execution on those plays.

Did you miss the parts where Demps, the fastest player on either team, got exactly jack shit (2.6 ypc), and Harvin was contained except for one huge run, while OU was picking up chunks of yards on old school run blocking for multiple plays in a row? The Harvin run in the 2nd half was the biggest play of the game, but it was an anomally compared to the rest of the game. OU was much more consistent in the running game.

You mean a Michigan team that finally got largely healthy and wanted to send Carr out on a win against a team that was decimated coming in to that year by players leaving? All those guys you quoted were sophs versus Michigan's seniors.

So seniors are faster than sophomores? Were it not for Hart's fumbles, that game would have been even more embarrassing for UF. But, the UF players were just as fast as they were tonight.

In my opinion you picked the wrong game to highlight. That D line was 20x faster than OSU's oline. They lived in the backfield that game. Boone still has nightmere's of the ball being snapped and Harvey sacking Smith before Boone could take a second step. That D line epitomized speed rushing out of shape slow OT's.

So, was Auburn's O-line faster than UF's, and So. Car's only 19x faster than OSU's, since they only lost by one. Boone got torched in the LSU game, USC game, UT game, and many others. He's just got a horrible first step vs. speed rushers. There were manny other factors in the UF/OSU game than D-line speed. Not saying that UF didn't have impressive speed on the D-line, but there have been numerous non-SEC teams that gave that O-line problems. In 03, Wisconsin's D-line destroyed us, does that mean UW's speed was superior to the rest of the NCAA? Not that you don't raise some good points, but the SEC speed argument is just too easy to pick apart.

 

[OSU_D/]

In general that may work, but there are many INTs that are a result of DBs making great reads, or LBs sitting down in a zone, when the QB isn't pressured at all.

Like the interception made by OU's DT? I understand... but as the football truth states.... a good dl makes the backfield look better.

Did you miss the parts where Demps, the fastest player on either team, got exactly jack shit (2.6 ypc), and Harvin was contained except for one huge run, while OU was picking up chunks of yards on old school run blocking for multiple plays in a row? The Harvin run in the 2nd half was the biggest play of the game, but it was an anomally compared to the rest of the game. OU was much more consistent in the running game.

I agree in large part. But when we point to anomalies it works in my favor. Speed means you have to be precise in your attack angles and is what can generates those game changine/field position changin plays and its that one play where a guy can use an extra gear and turn a corner. I agree OU was more consistent in the run but when I saw those consistent run plays it was extremely solid execution, vision and blocking and less due to actual speed.

So seniors are faster than sophomores? Were it not for Hart's fumbles, that game would have been even more embarrassing for UF. But, the UF players were just as fast as they were tonight.

In general yes, seniors are faster as they have two years of physical maturation. So UF's VERY YOUNG Freshmen on D had another year of maturation. Also, last year you could see the lack of UF's depth work against them. Did you see Harvin toward the end of the game? Dude was as slow as dirt because UF rode his back the whole game. Enter Demps, Rainey etc and you see a much fresher/faster team this year.

So, was Auburn's O-line faster than UF's, and So. Car's only 19x faster than OSU's, since they only lost by one. Boone got torched in the LSU game, USC game, UT game, and many others. He's just got a horrible first step vs. speed rushers. There were manny other factors in the UF/OSU game than D-line speed. Not saying that UF didn't have impressive speed on the D-line, but there have been numerous non-SEC teams that gave that O-line problems. In 03, Wisconsin's D-line destroyed us, does that mean UW's speed was superior to the rest of the NCAA? Not that you don't raise some good points, but the SEC speed argument is just too easy to pick apart.

I am not trying to tell you speed is the ONLY thing. But I believe it is a MAJOR thing. I mean you have to go back to 03 to find a time when D line destroyed US and having nothing to do with speed... or at least that was any easy example for you. I saw against UF, LSU and USC superior speed against a fat OL.

FYI... anyone with impeccable sources willing to PM me and tell me the real stories leading up to the UF/OSU game? I see a bunch of trash on the net and choose not to put much/any stock in it.

Thanks all.... many of us will agree to disagree, but it was fun tonight.

 

[generaladm]

Word. Not trying to say you're wrong, just playing devil's advocate.

Like the interception made by OU's DT? I understand... but as the football truth states.... a good dl makes the backfield look better.

Sure, a good pass rush makes QBs throw up ducks. But look at tonight's INTs, Bradford's were tip drills, Tebow's were bad throws. None were due to pressure.

I agree in large part. But when we point to anomalies it works in my favor. Speed means you have to be precise in your attack angles and is what can generates those game changine/field position changin plays and its that one play where a guy can use an extra gear and turn a corner. I agree OU was more consistent in the run but when I saw those consistent run plays it was extremely solid execution, vision and blocking and less due to actual speed.

We have different points of view here. I see OU's rushing attack as the more precise. Each blocker takes his man, and the RB picks his path. UF's handoff plays rarely worked tonight, and the spread plays only worked about half the time. Spread plays (screens, flats) work very well against poor tackling/contain teams. They will work eventually, and have a chance to go for big yards when they do, but would you rather get 15 yds every two plays, or 30 yds every 8 plays? IMO, OU gave up on the run too early. The UF D did make adjustments late, but the run calls became predictable, IMO. Also, I thought the first goal line stand was poorly called. One of those plays should have been a play action. The hurry-up on 4th down worked against OU, IMO. Better to have the D set if you have been having success in blocking.

In general yes, seniors are faster as they have two years of physical maturation. So UF's VERY YOUNG Freshmen on D had another year of maturation. Also, last year you could see the lack of UF's depth work against them. Did you see Harvin toward the end of the game? Dude was as slow as dirt because UF rode his back the whole game. Enter Demps, Rainey etc and you see a much fresher/faster team this year.

I don't agree. Were Ginn or Harvin noticably faster after their soph years? On D, yes, it's about reaction. But, at offensive skill positions, UF was faster than UM in that game. Hart will never be confused with fast, yet he dominated the game. I'll give you that UF's defensive backfield could not hang with a seasoned UM passing game. But that still contradicts the speed argument. A good game plan with good execution and good line play can counteract a speed game. I think you would agree with that. The better team won, even though they didn't have a speed advantage.

I am not trying to tell you speed is the ONLY thing. But I believe it is a MAJOR thing. I mean you have to go back to 03 to find a time when D line destroyed US and having nothing to do with speed... or at least that was any easy example for you. I saw against UF, LSU and USC superior speed against a fat OL.

FYI... anyone with impeccable sources willing to PM me and tell me the real stories leading up to the UF/OSU game? I see a bunch of trash on the net and choose not to put much/any stock in it.

Thanks all.... many of us will agree to disagree, but it was fun tonight.

And I'm not saying that speed isn't important, but that the SEC doesn't have a monopoly on it, like the media likes to promote. All major programs have major speed. I do give creedence to the theory that southern teams have more athletic DTs, but that does not mean that that region has an advantage over all other teams. As far as the Wisky reference, that wasn't the only time that a D-line has gotten the better of us, but they had a DT that we had no answer for (and we had a god O-line), and it still came down to a single long pass play due to blown coverage. My point was that the SEC does not own the rights to superior DLs, we face them every year from UW, UM, and PSU. See my earlier comments about pressure vs. contain.

Anyway, good discourse. All of my comments are solely my opinion, and probably have nothing to do with reality. Just for the record, I think if OU had taken points when they had the chance, they would have won the game by a wider margin than UF eventually won. (momentum, game flow, etc.)

 

[Steve19]

Here is an alternative perception of Herbie's ongoing and constant criticism of the Big Ten. Whether intended or not, his constant criticism is driving recruits away from the Big Ten, including the very recruits whose speed might change the equation. Thus, he is using his position to hurt the Big Ten by continuing on this campaign and he is hurting Ohio State.

Quite frankly, one wonders if this is not a personal issue between him and Tressel. Issues have arisen in the past and Herbie is alleged to have felt that his opinion was not taken seriously or that he was diminished in some way. I think it is more likely that Herbie is trying to sever the tie between himself and Ohio State, which probably shows up as a negative in the marketing research polls ESPiN feeds him. Of course, those links will never be severed because opponents will always expect him to have at least some residual preference for his alma mater.

I have less respect for Herbie than I had years ago and it is not because I am an aggrieved Ohio State homer. I just think that his commentary in the past was much more insightful and he conducted himself in a much more professional manner.

Whatever the cause of his tiresome campaign, I would urge Herbie to remember where he came from and who his tiresome criticism is hurting. He made his point. We heard him. Now, he needs to stop.

 

[Jaxbuck]

How about we narrow it down? Big 10 v SEC in championship games 0-2. Big Ten in championship games overall 1-2. SEC in championship games. 5-0. We can pull a lot of statistics and go all night I am sure. But in the end, I will be able to pull many more statistics that favor the SEC over the Big 10.

Be honest. As a whole... would you rather have the big 10's coaches and recruits each year or those of the SEC. I would really like an answer.

"How about we narrow it down to a specific instance that I want to use to fit my argument" is what you should have said.

As far as pulling many more stats to favor the SEC I think you are confusing the definition of "stat" and "opinion".

Bottom line is if the SEC were as vastly superior to the B10 as you are trying to say it is they should be able to do better than a sub .500 record against the B10 in Bowl games....period.

Is the SEC the best conference right now? Sure it is. Is it "10 billion times better" ? No. Go easy on the hyperbole and remember that these things are cyclical.

 

[Bucklion]

Here is an alternative perception of Herbie's ongoing and constant criticism of the Big Ten. Whether intended or not, his constant criticism is driving recruits away from the Big Ten, including the very recruits whose speed might change the equation. Thus, he is using his position to hurt the Big Ten by continuing on this campaign and he is hurting Ohio State.

Quite frankly, one wonders if this is not a personal issue between him and Tressel. Issues have arisen in the past and Herbie is alleged to have felt that his opinion was not taken seriously or that he was diminished in some way. I think it is more likely that Herbie is trying to sever the tie between himself and Ohio State, which probably shows up as a negative in the marketing research polls ESPiN feeds him. Of course, those links will never be severed because opponents will always expect him to have at least some residual preference for his alma mater.

I have less respect for Herbie than I had years ago and it is not because I am an aggrieved Ohio State homer. I just think that his commentary in the past was much more insightful and he conducted himself in a much more professional manner.

Whatever the cause of his tiresome campaign, I would urge Herbie to remember where he came from and who his tiresome criticism is hurting. He made his point. We heard him. Now, he needs to stop.

He's killing his own reputation the most IMO by jumping on Mark May's "USC has had the 7 greatest teams of all time the last 7 years, and pay no attention to those losses to Oregon State and Stanford behind the curtain". He is starting to throw out "ever" (as in USC has the best college football defense ever this year) way too much, and he seems to be openly, not rooting for exactly, that's the wrong word, but selectively accentuating one team's positives more than he ever used to. I agree his analysis in general, forget OSU or the Big Ten, has gone down in quality quite a bit.