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- Thread starter mercer_buckeye
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409fold
All-American
Good post - I agree with you.
Politically, I'm one of those "never Trumpers." I agree with more conservative ideology than liberal ideology, but I find Trump's "cult of personality" hazardous and a turn-off.
It's a bit analogous with my feelings on Penn State football. That's my alma mater, so I will generally be inclined to root for the football team. But I was queasy on JoePa starting as early as 2001. There were other signs in the 2001-2011 time period, but 2001 was the first sign: the statue being erected and JoePa having an attitude of "yeah, I deserve to have that statue erected in my honor." My fandom did slip a notch starting there.
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Zurp
I have misplaced my pants.
And you haven't been executed, yet?
I'm mostly joking. But the "regulars" on BWI and Audibles have very little tolerance for a difference in opinion. And, despite insistence by BP'ers who live in Pennsylvania that BWI is a good representation of the fanbase, as a whole, I can't believe it. I think that BWI is just a vocal minority.
Just out of curiosity, you mention that there were other signs from 2001 to 2011. (Sorry, I cut that out of what I quoted you saying.) I was always led to believe that his reputation was spotless going into 2011 (and actually should remain spotless). What other signs did you notice in that time period?
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sparcboxbuck
What happened to my ¤cash?
Car kicking incident was 2007. Thinking back to then I didn’t have a feeling of shock over the car incident so I’m guessing there were other things before then.
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ORD_Buckeye
Wrong glass, Sir.
I tend to think that they are, and I'll point to the alumni elections for the board. Every single winner has been a cultist endorsed by the Paterno truther group. And the one who showed even a little bit of independence (taliaferro) chose not to stand for reelection because he knew he'd lose having lost the endorsement of the Paternos and their front group. Now that's the actual alumni, so what do you think the football fans are like?
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409fold
All-American
That's one of those un-answerable (at least in terms of a definitive answer) question.
Some of the BPers have their opinions, but I would argue they may have an unconscious or conscious bias to make OSU folk look good/PSU folk look bad. A couple years ago, someone here was all over my ass because I said "Pennsylvania and Ohio border each other and folks from the states have a fair bit in common."
That said, those folk can rightfully argue back that I have my OWN unconscious or conscious bias.
So I'll just leave it at the next two paragraphs.
I grew up in Michigan, I've visited all 50 states and moved around the country quite a bit (also have lived in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Kentucky and Colorado).
From all of that, I know this is true: Pennsylvania folk are generally (1) more provincial and (2) more tribal than people from the rest of the country. They will rally around their own.
There was never that huge red flag - most of these things were subtle. But things that made me raise my eyebrows (and I'm being honest here, this isn't 20-20 hindsight here, I saw these things at the time):
1. Player discipline fell off notably during the 2000s.
2. Penn State had 3- and 4-win teams in 2003/2004. To the point that Spanier and others were encouraging his resignation. Penn State bounced back to be #3 in the country in 2005. Paterno seemed to take EXTRA pleasure in talking about how "he wasn't to be doubted, don't tell me what to do."
3. PSU's long-time women's basketball coach was a lady named Rene Portland. She would occasionally pop up in the news throughout the 2000s, because she was discriminating against lesbians within the program. Eventually, her resignation was forced. Rightfully IMO. Paterno didn't say too much publicly about her at the time but there were signs and reports he was on "her side" and trying to use his influence back-stage as regards her status during the 2000s.
4. JoePa didn't speak out publicly on Portland but he DID rush to the defense of then-Air Force coach Fisher DeBerry in 2004. Air Force was blown out by TCU that year and DeBerry said TCU won because "TCU had a lot more Afro-American players than we did and they ran a lot faster than we did.” Cringe-worthy on DeBerry's part, and also was on Paterno's part.
5. PSU had some poorly performing assistants in the 2000s. Most notably Joe's son Jay. Joe knew Jay was a poor coach --- but after awhile it became apparent Joe was taking an attitude of "I know <<<fill in assistant Coach X here>>> isn't good at his job, but screw you, just to prove a point I'm keeping him on!"
6. Someone else upstream mentioned the road rage incident, back in October 2007.
7. There were a few games - most notably Iowa 2002 with Dick Honig - where he was raging against and/or chasing the referees. To the point that I thought a "football coach punches referee" incident seriously might happen. As I recall, in Paterno's office he had a stuffed referee with a noose hanging on his neck for a few weeks after that game.
That's not necessarily comprehensive. But the signs were there. I liked JoePa in the 1990s. I thought he was a very good football coach, and have good memories of the 15 minutes I was very lucky to get a 1-on-1 conversation with him back in my undergrad days (1995). But come the 2000s, I was seeing the evolution into "man aging into his sunset years, who thinks he is entitled to remain on the throne forever, everything else be damned." I also would joke with some of my friends "I'm not sure how Penn State gets to their next football coach - but i have a feeling it won't be a smooth path."
Unfortunately, I was right. I do wish it hadn't been that way.
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409fold
All-American
I've said this before - but among my friend group of Penn State alumni, about 90% of folk don't even KNOW there are alumni BoT elections. They're off busy living their adult lives. They have good memories of their under-grad days but they aren't overly engaged as regards Penn State governorship.
The winning candidates in those elections generally don't get a lot of votes. If there is a small faction motivated enough to try to campaign for votes (that's what PS4RS is), they can win the election without too much effort.
You're entitled to your opinion as regards grouping my fellow PSU alumni. But I don't think pointing to the BoT elections is a particularly strong point of evidence.
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Decent summary of concerns that could have raised a red flag.
Of course, there was also the in-game pants-change incident in Columbus in 2009 that raised a brown flag.
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I just started working at a pseudo-Uni in Maryland... 2 of my coworkers quit from Penn State.
Neither of them is shy about discussing the toxic environment there and that Sandusky/Paterno/Schultz/Curley/Spanier and complicity of Admin was the final straw.
It happened to come up thanks to the most convenient timing for Spanier's overturned hogwash.
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LovelandBuckeye
You never lose to those pricks. Ever. Ever. - UFM
Someone had to say it. Hahahahaha
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Hell, since they really aren't consumed by the dark side, I say let em' get the $49.99 special!
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