Penn State Cult (Joe Knew)

[jwinslow]

That's not what I'm arguing (I think you actually know that).

Penn State fans who remain "Paterno Loyalists" are a stain on the Penn State fanbase. I've said that for awhile, both here and elsewhere. My voicing of that opinion is part of the reason "michnittlion" is not very popular on BWI.

What I'm arguing is: "if Paterno had been hired by (school X) and the same thing happened (enabled a criminal), there would be many fans of (school X) that would act as present-day JoeBots are acting."

People are people - in the aggregate, we act all the same.

...and the rest of america, especially JoePa followers, would not give them a pass if they were behaving that way, nor should they.

 

[Bill Lucas]

I really don't know why you are trying to accomplish here. It makes no sense to me.

 

[jwinslow]

Overall, that was a good and fair post. Not that I meant to clip the whole thing --- but the last sentence.

"The two major Penn State forums."

Is that a fair way to judge the Penn State community? A couple message boards, one run by a guy who is a proven Paterno-insider and likely paid by the Paterno family to leverage BWI as a JoeBot "safe haven" (that would be Tom McAndrew himself).

I've said this before. When I grew up in Michigan, I would hear stuff like: "all Ohio State fans are neanderthals who have no lives besides Ohio State football. Never visit Columbus, because you will die if you wear maize and blue."

Then I actually visited Columbus. And realized that is not how the world is. That's how the world has been EVERY time I've had my horizons broadened.

Take it FWIW.

I grew up in Pennsylvania (though not really PSU country) for my first 14 years. I know plenty of reasonable people out that way, but at some point the crazies take their toll on your perception. Even if they are a vocal minority, they are such an unbelievable one that it dominates your psyche.

Michigan fans missed the big picture for sure, but I'm not sure they're that far off about the classiness you'll find towards them. Just imagine if our teams were actually rivals :)

 

[409fold]

You're simply not getting "it". I've explained a dozen times now. You are moving the goal posts around. Creating strawmen and red herrings, deflections all in an effort to convince everyone that this cult perception is limited to a few nut-jobs - but it's not. I'll give you one last bit of advise and I tried to take the snarkiness out. Call this Delaware Buck's Guide to Independent Thinking for Penn State Fans, Alum and Supporters

Some forum recommendations

1. Survey the forum you want to post to - get a feel for the general mood and views of the participants. If it's obvious that people feel a certain way cater your views accordingly and error on the side of caution. This goes for any place not named BWI, Audibles, BSD
   
2. Try to emulate some of the decent opposing fans posting here and on other sites (if this was someplace like the Ozone you would be lucky to last a day with the current attitude)

Talking points - General

• If someone brings up the Penn State sex abuse scandal don't attempt to get into discussion about insurance claims, legal cases, minutia, motives, media coverage, bias etc... The world moved on after the conviction of JS and Freeh gave his report and the school accepted the sanctions and NOTHING will ever change that singular fact. (read that last sentence again so it sinks in and then just keep repeating it over and over). This is a case where an extreme amount of hubris will serve you well. So proving how much you've read, researched or discounted about the case is only going to end poorly. The only place that is going to play well is BWI, Audibles, BSD... It's not gonna make you look intelligent, qualified or otherwise trustworthy in other places. It's simply going to make you look defensive, churlish, callous and cultish.

Talking points - Specific

• You should be saying things like... it's pretty much a broad overview on what the rest of society feels:
  • "I am embarrassed with what happened at my alma mater. It a tragic and unfortunate thing that we cannot seem to come to grips with 5 years later...So many kids were hurt because my university allowed a pedophile access to our campuses with impunity while having full knowledge of his intentions..."
  • "I make no excuses for any of the indicted parties and hopefully justice is served either here or elsewhere... I'm not going to spend a single second defending any of them or playing devils advocate because I understand what the rest of the world understands... These are bad men that cared more about reputation than kids"
    
  • "My university should be moving on and I am saddened that it's been overrun with zealots who's only mission is to honor a flawed and despicable 'human being'. The damage they are doing just further alienates us from the rest of society..."
  • "I am ashamed of the current state of the alumni elections process. It seems that the majority of the Penn State nation wants to hang to something that is gone and never existed in the first place. It's unfortunate that many of my fellow Penn Staters cannot think for themselves or find a way to rise above this..."
  • "I have no interest in dredging up events from 2011 nor am I interested in making excuses for what happened... nor do I have any interest in calling into question the media reporting, victim settlements or elements of a report that was accepted by my university...The matter is closed and I accept what was found..."
    
  • "I am working with other sane Penn State people to reverse what is currently happening with our Penn State leadership but it's very much an uphill battle and it may take years to reverse the damage that the current factions are doing..."

Got it.

My bad for not being a "decent opposing fan." I think I've said ALL of 1,2,3,5 and 6 above, but next time I will use your exact wording. My bad for disagreeing on 4.

Check.

"Next time" will be somewhere else though. Maybe BWI. I'll go take your 1st and 2nd recommendations, take my "attitude", and leave this sandbox.

Check. Cheers.

 

[Fungo Squiggly]

That's not what I'm arguing (I think you actually know that).

Penn State fans who remain "Paterno Loyalists" are a stain on the Penn State fanbase. I've said that for awhile, both here and elsewhere. My voicing of that opinion is part of the reason "michnittlion" is not very popular on BWI.

What I'm arguing is: "if Paterno had been hired by (school X) and the same thing happened (enabled a criminal), there would be many fans of (school X) that would act as present-day JoeBots are acting."

People are people - in the aggregate, we act all the same.

In general, yes. However....have you ever seen a "WE ARE BECAUSE HE WAS" bumper sticker on a car for another team? Nobody refers to OSU as "WoodyU" or Notre Dame as "Rockne U".....but JoePaU is not unheard of. Do you deny that the man, more so than any other long-reigning college coach, has been placed on an absurd pedestal?

 

[jwinslow]

I'd recommend thicker skin and less attempts to persuade OSU fans to think differently, particularly given the two decades of predisposition that predated this.

I spend time on a Michigan board and occasionally get caught up in arguing too much. Sometimes I need to figure out whether it's a wise argument to make or not, which is often much more important and relevant than whether or not I think I'm right. The how matters more.

 

[Fungo Squiggly]

Got it.

My bad for not being a "decent opposing fan." I think I've said ALL of 1,2,3,5 and 6 above, but next time I will use your exact wording. My bad for disagreeing on 4.

Check.

"Next time" will be somewhere else though. Maybe BWI. I'll go take your 1st and 2nd recommendations, take my "attitude", and leave this sandbox.

Check. Cheers.

Bah. I wish you wouldn't. I may not agree with you on this issue, but you are able to conduct the argument without resorting to idiocy and you should be applauded for that, particularly when it's turned into a veritable verbal gangbang.

 

[jwinslow]

Bah. I wish you wouldn't. I may not agree with you on this issue, but you are able to conduct the argument without resorting to idiocy and you should be applauded for that, particularly when it's turned into a veritable verbal gangbang.

Agreed. ALso, a number of our better posters stuck around after some bumpy starts (MUCH worse than yours). That BKB guy was a piece of work.

 

[kujirakira]

I'm not here to "change hearts and minds." I'm just here to make fun of 9fold. :-)

It's fair to admit it --- last week was another situation for the "HA HA Penn State, fuck those cultists, hopefully Mark Emmert does his thing and screws them" crowd to feel good about themselves.

I get it. Penn State folk were obnoxious with "success with honor" and "we're better than everyone else" in the pre-2011 days. Now the tables are turned.

I also get this: I grew up in Michigan, schooled in Pennsylvania, now work and essentially live in Ohio. I'm definitely connected to all three places and have interacted with all 3 fanbases. Michigan, Penn State and Ohio State fans, in the aggregate, are all basically the same. None of us, as a group, are any better than anyone else. Just be thankful it didn't happen at your school. It could have, and there would be no shortage of Buckeye fan idiots either.

Wow. Way to completely miss the point. And then go all BWI with the "everyone is doing it" bullshit.
I didn't mind PSU prior to 2011... viewed you guys about the same as I do Corn now. Not our rival, but another name brand to add some shine to the conference.
Enabling child rape - for decades no less - in your own school, even after the rapist was no longer coaching there is a very special kind of evil. Everything that has come out in the Freeh report, the courts... and most recently this. No, it couldn't happen anywhere else in the Big10.

You have a serious culture problem, and despite claiming to be the rational majority of PSU alum... at the end of the day, we can all see that you try to justify and excuse it the same as BWI. Only ever so slightly more nuanced.

 

[Delaware Buck]

Got it.

My bad for not being a "decent opposing fan." I think I've said ALL of 1,2,3,5 and 6 above, but next time I will use your exact wording. My bad for disagreeing on 4.

Check.

"Next time" will be somewhere else though. Maybe BWI. I'll go take your 1st and 2nd recommendations, take my "attitude", and leave this sandbox.

Check. Cheers.

Very adult response. Props

 

[kujirakira]

Is that a fair way to judge the Penn State community? A couple message boards, one run by a guy who is a proven Paterno-insider and likely paid by the Paterno family to leverage BWI as a JoeBot "safe haven" (that would be Tom McAndrew himself).

Why do you think posters bring up the actions of the alumni association, Barron's statements, new court cases, students chanting 409 and Paterno, rallies for Paterno, etc. etc. etc.

It obviously goes way beyond a few malcontents on the internet.

 

[Delaware Buck]

I'd recommend thicker skin and less attempts to persuade OSU fans to think differently, particularly given the two decades of predisposition that predated this.

I spend time on a Michigan board and occasionally get caught up in arguing too much. Sometimes I need to figure out whether it's a wise argument to make or not, which is often much more important and relevant than whether or not I think I'm right. The how matters more.

He's trying to come across as the smartest guy in the room that understands the FAX and EVIDENTS better than everyone else. And trying to change perceptions after the school already accepted it's own report by Freeh... about 6 years too late.

 

[Delaware Buck]

Why do you think posters bring up the actions of the alumni association, Barron's statements, new court cases, students chanting 409 and Paterno, rallies for Paterno, etc. etc. etc.

It obviously goes way beyond a few malcontents on the internet.

Way beyond. I could give another dozen examples but none would resonate with this fellow. Even Penn State people that would self identify as normal, well adjusted functioning members of society have gene defect when it comes to Paterno.

Hell, Todd Blackledge, who we all like and appreciate as an analyst is a party to the Paterno lawsuits and has been a very strong opponent of moving on.

 

[scarletmike]

There's no way JoePed would have been allowed run things at scUM or another school in the B1G the way he was able to at PSU (and I certainly doubt his authority would have been as extensive even in the south). That argument is just ridiculous. I don't know why he was allowed to get that damn powerful there, but he was, and the reputation he and the school/program has amongst the fans of other schools is as a result very well deserved.

I know one person (a former coworker) that might identify as a casual PSU sports fan, but he had nothing good to say about JoePed (and the creepy vibe around Happy Valley in general, believed he described it to me as Stepford Wives-like, perfect on the surface, creepily so but a cesspool underneath the surface), and is the only one I've met down here who I could say that of. Every other one either sports a bumper sticker or plate that suggests it was all about Joe and will bend over backwards to defend him if given the chance. Thus why I generally walk the other way when I see someone with PSU gear. Don't even want to take the chance at listening to that drivel.

Also, a conversation with a PSU fan about football without having to hear about being the red-headed stepchild of the B1G and all the fuckery with the refs will be a very, very welcome first. Let go of the victim mentality, already.

 

[Delaware Buck]

Wow. Way to completely miss the point. And then go all BWI with the "everyone is doing it" bull[Mark May].
I didn't mind PSU prior to 2011... viewed you guys about the same as I do Corn now. Not our rival, but another name brand to add some shine to the conference.
Enabling child rape - for decades no less - in your own school, even after the rapist was no longer coaching there is a very special kind of evil. Everything that has come out in the Freeh report, the courts... and most recently this. No, it couldn't happen anywhere else in the Big10.

You have a serious culture problem, and despite claiming to be the rational majority of PSU alum... at the end of the day, we can all see that you try to justify and excuse it the same as BWI. Only ever so slightly more nuanced.

It's a softer approach... 'hey guys I disagree with some of those knuckleheads on BWI but I just want you to know that the majority of us penn staters are good decent people that don't care about that Paterno stuff'. And then when confronted with the counter data and anecdotal information goes full denial - it's all made up numbers, the elections were rigged, OSU would handle it that same way..."