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Oversigning (capacity 25, everyone welcome! maybe)

SmoovP;1858154; said:
That is why I said

As to why they do it, I have no real answer, but virtually everyone does - present conference excluded.

and that is pretty much what I thought.

There is no reason to engage in it other than to try and gain a competitive advantage in an area that cannot possibly benefit the student athletes.

"Everyone else does it" pretty much seals it for me that you both know damn good and well its the wrong thing to do but are hell bent on obfuscating the topic out of loyalty to your conference.
 
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Let's play devil's advocate for a moment.

What if oversigning were a product of region?

I'm sure the data is out there, but I'd be interested to see how many of the "excess" signees in the SEC or other guilty conferences were taking their talents to the closest programs possible that would be able to benefit from their presence. It would definitely make sense that the Big East and the SEC had the largest number of throwaways seeing as the talent pools are larger in their general areas.

The worst offenders are the Alabama schools, no?

I would venture to believe that outside of Texas and Florida there is no greater talent pool for high school football recruits.

The discussion then becomes about whether or not these programs are simply making the most out of their situation or are intentionally mistreating student athletes. That seems to be the more pertinent topic here, what's happening to the players rather than what's happening FOR the programs. What Ubet seems to be defending incessantly is that there is no evidence for any competitive advantage. While true, the jury is still out on what purpose it does serve and if it's intentional or simply a byproduct of culture and location.

I think that's a fair discussion. The difference between culture in the SEC and the BigTen may be the difference between oversigning rates.
 
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Jaxbuck;1858158; said:
and that is pretty much what I thought.

There is no reason to engage in it other than to try and gain a competitive advantage in an area that cannot possibly benefit the student athletes.

"Everyone else does it" pretty much seals it for me that you both know damn good and well its the wrong thing to do but are hell bent on obfuscating the topic out of loyalty to your conference.

Well, it is the Big Ten that is the outlier here. If your conference allowed it, I'm sure that Big Ten teams would do it too.

According to the oversigning.com website, the most egregious offender over the past 9 years is Auburn, who averages 28.11 signees per year.

That's a little over 3 per year oversigned. Three kids per year to find a JUCO or a greyshirt for. Three kids who still have the opportunity to play for the school of their choice rather than some place they had rather not be.

#2 is Mississippi State at 27.44 - a little less than 2 1/2 per year.

#3 is Iowa State signs 27 even.

It sounds WAY worse when it is presented with the aggregate numbers of 253 vs 180 like I've seen done. That's every bit as obfuscating as anything I've been accused of doing.

Now, I suppose you could try and make the point that Auburn won a NC due to those 3 extra players per year, but it would be pretty difficult for me to swallow.

Going down the list below #3 you get down to #8 Alabama (1.1 extra signees per year) who also won an NC, as did LSU at #15 (.11 below 25 per year).

I'm just not seeing your case for a significant competitive advantage.

And once again, until someone can prove to me that there are hoards of kids being hurt by the process, I'm going to have to give a pass on that one too.

And what is completely left out of the discussion is that kids are dying to go to Alabama and play for Nick Saban - along with other SEC schools. I reckon that most of the kids who are sign-and-place are pretty happy with that deal - getting a chance to play for and SEC institution and an SEC coach like Saban or Spurrier or Malzahn or Petrino.

True or not, the perception that the SEC is the best conference is a pretty big draw. The chance to play for a NC, play in warm weather, pretty southern girls in bikinis and everything else, has me guessing that some 3 star kid would rather take his chance on making an SEC squad than playing for Northeast Kansas Directional Tech.

I think you guys are making a mountain out of a molehill.
 
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SmoovP;1858198; said:
Well, it is the Big Ten that is the outlier here. If your conference allowed it, I'm sure that Big Ten teams would do it too.

According to the oversigning.com website, the most egregious offender over the past 9 years is Auburn, who averages 28.11 signees per year.

That's a little over 3 per year oversigned. Three kids per year to find a JUCO or a greyshirt for. Three kids who still have the opportunity to play for the school of their choice rather than some place they had rather not be.

#2 is Mississippi State at 27.44 - a little less than 2 1/2 per year.

#3 is Iowa State signs 27 even.

It sounds WAY worse when it is presented with the aggregate numbers of 253 vs 180 like I've seen done. That's every bit as obfuscating as anything I've been accused of doing.

Now, I suppose you could try and make the point that Auburn won a NC due to those 3 extra players per year, but it would be pretty difficult for me to swallow.

Going down the list below #3 you get down to #8 Alabama (1.1 extra signees per year) who also won an NC, as did LSU at #15 (.11 below 25 per year).

I'm just not seeing your case for a significant competitive advantage.

And once again, until someone can prove to me that there are hoards of kids being hurt by the process, I'm going to have to give a pass on that one too.

And what is completely left out of the discussion is that kids are dying to go to Alabama and play for Nick Saban - along with other SEC schools. I reckon that most of the kids who are sign-and-place are pretty happy with that deal - getting a chance to play for and SEC institution and an SEC coach like Saban or Spurrier or Malzahn or Petrino.

True or not, the perception that the SEC is the best conference is a pretty big draw. The chance to play for a NC, play in warm weather, pretty southern girls in bikinis and everything else, has me guessing that some 3 star kid would rather take his chance on making an SEC squad than playing for Northeast Kansas Directional Tech.

I think you guys are making a mountain out of a molehill.

You're jacking the math up though. 25 x 4 is 100.

You can only have 85 on scholarship. While many colleges only take 17 kids when they have 17 departed seniors, a school like Alabama will still sign 25 or even go to 28-29 and then sort it out.
 
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billmac91;1858203; said:
You're jacking the math up though. 25 x 4 is 100.

You can only have 85 on scholarship. While many colleges only take 17 kids when they have 17 departed seniors, a school like Alabama will still sign 25 or even go to 28-29 and then sort it out.

Well, break it down then.

Come up with the numbers per school, per class and we'll figure it out.
 
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SmoovP;1858204; said:
Well, break it down then.

Come up with the numbers per school, per class and we'll figure it out.

Well, oversigning.com has the signings for teams going back to 2002. Pretty easy to check. According to them, Auburn, in the last 4 years, has signed: 30, 29, 28, 32. That's 119 scholarships not including redshirts from the year before. That's 34 kids that are not going to have scholarships that thought they were. It's just like that at most SEC schools. I find it incredibly hard to believe that 8.4 kids per year aren't qualifying, or are getting so badly hurt so as to need a medical hardship scholarship, or just plain aren't pulling their weight.

http://oversigning.com/testing/index.php/recruiting-numbers/
 
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SmoovP;1858204; said:
Well, break it down then.

Come up with the numbers per school, per class and we'll figure it out.

If Alabama had 17 graduating seniors last year and 3 juniors leaving early, they should have only signed 20 players.

They signed 29.

While the NCAA permits 25 a class, simple math says Alabama shouldn't have signed more than 20 to not go over 85 scholarship players.

Signing additional players and forcing gray-shirts, using medical hardships, and asking upper-classman not making an impact to not come back is unethical and creates a competitive advantage in that more under-classman come in and compete and show their metal. If those players don't pan out, it's no sweat off Saban's sack, he'll just oversign again and force non-productive players off the team.

The point is, just because you can sign 25 a class, doesn't mean you should. Check out the size of Ohio State's recruiting classes sometime. They didn't sign a class of less than 15 a few years ago because they didn't have players knocking down their door. They signed a small class because so few seniors graduated....

In the SEC however, that would have been a full class, and sorted out come re-up on the scholarship time....
 
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SmoovP;1858204; said:
Well, break it down then.

Come up with the numbers per school, per class and we'll figure it out.

This from an Alabama sight:

With the news of Milton Talbert and Taylor Pharr having been placed on a medical hardship scholarship, it is time to take a look at where Bama stands in regards to the NCAA limit of 85 football scholarships.

Here's the basic information that you'll need if you are new to the scholarship numbers watch:

  • Every football team in Division 1 Bowl Sub-Division is allowed to have 85 student-athletes on scholarship.
  • No group of incoming football scholarship student-athletes can exceed 25 players.
  • At the conclusion of the 2009 season Alabama had 67 scholarship football players set to return for the 2010 season.
Before getting into the actual roster as it stands now, you also need to know exactly what has transpire since the Tide headed home from Pasadena.
On January 11, eleven new Tide players began their academic career at the Capstone:
Cade Foster, Jalston Fowler, John Fulton, Brandon Lewis, Chad Lindsay, Darius McKeller, DeMarcus Milliner, Anthony Orr, Austin Shepherd, Phillip Sims, Petey Smith
That saw Bama's number of scholarship athletes climb to 78.
Within one week of that, both Rolando McClain and Kareem Jackson declared for the NFL Draft (and went on to be 1st round draft picks), dropping Bama's number to 76.
On February 3, 18 more student-athletes signed their national letter of intent to play for Alabama in the fall. Those guys don't count towards the scholarship limits until fall practice begins, so we won't add them into the mix quite yet.
Obviously, those 18, plus the 11 that enrolled early gives Bama a total of 29 new players. Since an incoming group can not exceed 25, something has to give.
If a player enrolls for the spring semester, and the school did not enroll a full class of 25 for the prior fall semester, a player can count towards the previous year's total. While the Tide did bring in a full group in the fall of 2009, three of those players were able to count towards the 2008 signing class.
What that means is that three members of the 2010 signing class can count towards the 2009 limit of 25. So pull any three guys from the list of early enrollees and count them towards the 2009 class. For the sake of ease, I'm going to make those three guys Darius McKeller, Anthony Orr, and Petey Smith. Why those three? Because those three guys actually signed as a part of the 2009 class, but deferred their enrollment until 2010.
So with those three out of the mix, that leaves Bama with 26 guys trying to squeeze into 25 spots. On March 24, one of those three - Darius McKellar - was placed onto a medical hardship scholarship because of a severe wrist injury. Because he was never enrolled during a competitive season, he counts towards neither the overall 85 limit, nor the 25 incoming limit.
That means that another of the eleven guys who enrolled in January can "back count" towards the 2009 class. For the sake of argument, we'll use junior college transfer Brandon Lewis, though it really does not matter which of the eleven was placed there for clerical purposes.
So that means that all 25 remaining members of the 2010 class can enroll, provided that Bama has room under the overall limit of 85.
After McKellar was placed onto medical hardship, that left Bama with 75 players on scholarship.
The next piece of news that affected this was the announcement that senior running back Terry Grant had left the team due to injuries, and would finish his post-graduate degree on a medical hardship scholarship. That dropped the number to 74.
On May 19 Bama saw backup quarterback Star Jackson leave the football team. The redshirt sophomore had dropped to fourth on the Tide depth chart after spring practice (behind two freshmen), and opted to leave for a better chance at playing time. Ironically, he has enrolled at Georgia State, and could likely be their quarterback when they head to Tuscaloosa this November. Jackson leaving the team dropped the number to 73.
The latest bit of news came this past Sunday, on June 13. Coach Saban announced that Taylor Pharr and Milton Talbert were being placed onto medical hardship scholarships.
Pharr was likely going to exit spring practice as either the #1 or #2 punter on the Tide's depth chart, despite play his entire career on the offensive line. He suffered a concussion late in the spring, and missed the Tide's A-Day game. The concussion was enough to end his playing career, though he has been working as a volunteer coach at all of the Tide's summer camps, and hopes to continue that work with the Tide this fall.
Talbert missed several games during the 2009 season, and was in a black no contact jersey for the entirety of the 2010 spring practice period. He had lingering injury issues that were simply too much for him to overcome.
With those two guys no longer on the team, Bama' number currently sits at 71.
In reality, though, that number has already changed. On June 1 Bama saw 16 of the 18 remaining signees enroll for summer classes.
The two players who did not enroll - Deion Belue and Blake Sims - are continuing to work towards academic eligibility, and are expected to enroll in January. Because the Tide will only be bringing in 23 players in the 2010 class, these two guys can count towards the 2010 at that time. Obviously they will have to become academically eligible first, though both players have recently indicated that they are optimistic about that situation.
So with those 16 added to the mix, Bama's number is at 87. That is, obviously, still two too many.
If you read the last scholarship numbers post on March 26, you'll remember that I told you that it is my understanding that junior tight end Chris Underwood is not actually on scholarship. The University of Alabama does not make an official list of scholarship players available to the public, so there is no way to know for certain. However, it is my understanding that Underwood's family has been paying his way since he enrolled at Alabama, which would mean that he would not count towards the limit of 85.
If anyone has concrete knowledge that Underwood is on scholarship, by all means, let me know. I'll happily admit to being wrong, and will change my numbers to reflect that.
You will notice that I do not have him listed with the scholarship juniors below, but that still has Bama's number at 87. So something still has to happen. The possibilities at this point are:
**** A player that is buried on the depth chart will seek a transfer in order to earn more playing time. Guys like Glenn Harbin, Nick Gentry, and Demetrius Goode are solid backups for the Tide, but simply might like to pursue a destination that will get them on the field more.
**** There is another player on the team that is thought to be on scholarship that is actually paying his own way. Bama has several players on the team that are from affluent families, and there were rumors of at least two members of the 2008 signing class opting to pay their own way. Also, no definitive answer was ever given as to whether or not Phelon Jones was placed on scholarship when he transferred in last year.
**** A player will granted a medical hardship. Summer workouts are ongoing, and someone could be injured prior to the beginning of fall camp. Hopefully this won't be the case, but injuries can and do occur.
**** A player will be kicked off of the team for a violation of team rules or an arrest. These are impossible to predict, and hopefully we won't see one for obvious reasons.
**** Another member of Bama 2010 class could defer their enrollment until January. Both Dequan Menzie and Wilson Love have had major sugeries since the end of their football seasons, and if either of them is not physically ready by August, they could choose to delay the beginning of their eligibility clock by waiting to enroll.
Here is the current breakdown of players on the roster by class:
Seniors (9) - Earl Alexander, James Carpenter, Luther Davis, Preston Dial, Darius Hanks, Greg McElroy, Brian Motley, David Ross, Chavis Williams
Juniors (23) - Mark Barron, John Michael Boswell, Josh Chapman, Marcell Dareus, Nick Gentry, Brandon Gibson, Demetrius Goode, Robby Green, Jeramie Griffin, Jerrell Harris, Dont'a Hightower, Mark Ingram, Julio Jones, Phelon Jones, Chris Jordan, Marquis Maze, Alfred McCullough, Brad Smelley, Courtney Upshaw, William Vlachos, Alex Watkins - early enrollee Brandon Lewis, and expected enrollee Dequan Menzie
Sophomores (15) - Undra Billingsley, Michael Bowman, Glenn Harbin, Nico Johnson, Barrett Jones, Dre Kirkpatrick, Robert Lester, Tyler Love, Kerry Murphy, Trent Richardson, B.J. Scott, Damion Square, Chance Warmack, Michael Williams, Rod Woodson
Freshmen (40) - Jonathan Atchison, Kenny Bell, Chris Bonds, D.J. Fluker, Kendall Kelly, Eddie Lacy, Mike Marrow, A.J. McCarron, William Ming, Brandon Moore, Kevin Norwood, Tana Patrick, Darrington Sentimore, Anthony Steen, Ed Stinson, Kellen Williams - early enrollees Cade Foster, Jalston Fowler, John Fulton, Chad Lindsay, DeMarcus Milliner, Anthony Orr, Austin Shepherd, Phillip Sims, Petey Smith and expected enrollees Ronald Carswell, Corey Grant, Alfy Hill, Adrian Hubbard, Brandon Ivory, Harrison Jones, Arie Kouadjio, Wilson Love, Keiwone Malone,C.J. Mosley, Nick Perry, Brian Vogler, DeAndrew White, Jarrick Williams, Jay Williams
There are two major things that jump out here:
Bama has an incredibly small senior class. Losing Pharr and Talbert on Sunday dropped that number to an anemic nine. That means that the Tide will have to have some leadership from guys other than seniors. It also means that there will have to be more attrition next season for the Tide to bring in another full class. There will likely be several early exits for the NFL - Mark Ingram, Julio Jones, Marcell Dareus, Dont'a Hightower, and Mark Barron are strong possibilities - but there will have to be an additional 10-12 players leave the team before next August if Bama brings in another 25-27.
It is astounding that the Tide is the likely preseason #1 despite the fact that 40 of the 85 players on campus will be freshmen. Throw in two junior college guys, and 42 of Bama's 85 players have yet to play in a single college game.
We'll keep you updated on the status of this situation once more things are made public. Keep in mind, though, that if Bama has players who are paying their own way, it might not actually be made public.
As for now, it appears as though the magic number is 2.

So in JT's 10 years at Ohio State he has granted 2 medical hardships...Saban has at least 2 a year.

That's two extra signees a season.

And Terry Grant leaving for injuries is a joke, another article I lined yesterday says he left the team in good standing and would focus on graduating.

The fact that another guy who was on scholarship as a back-up punter and offensive lineman (LOL) but would be getting a job as coach is shady as all hell.

And an update, offensive lineman Wilson Love (freshman) did end up
"needing" a medical hardship after this article came out.

It's such a shady bending of the rules to sign as many talented guys as possible and sorting the mess out later.

But when JT oversigns in a class and has to rely on a player getting hurt in the off-season for a medical hardship you can come back and throw it in our face. I won't hold my breath though.
 
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Weighing in:

Oversigning is an awfully broad term. It can be as innocent as a minor gamble on some players you're certain will transfer or as malicious as amassing LOIs and working out the details later. I liken this to the issue with partial and non-qualifiers that plagued the Big XII. Enough people got grumpy about what they perceived to be abuse of the system or loopholes that the NCAA was forced to tighten the rules. Is oversigning within the current rules? Yes, it is. Are there cases where it is morally or ethically wrong? I think so. In general, I think most would find it offensive what is happening to some of these kids if given all of the facts. I know I would be pissed if my child went through the following: had a scholarship offer to LSU, Wake Forest, and Mississippi State. Took the offer to LSU. After a redshirt, and a season without a lot of playing time, he gets jettisoned from the team to make room for another player. The coaches publicly say he didn't have the fight or determination to compete at the college level but I know it is bullshit. He would have been at least a 3 year starter at Wake Forest and would have gotten one hell of a degree but he gambled on a chance to go pro and now we're left with division II ball. That is the kind of thing that if parents and athletes knew going in to this they may reconsider some of these SEC schools that habitually adopt the motto: "win at all costs," even if it means dragging kids through the mud and ruining their careers. If the rule allows for even the slightest slime ball maneuvering it is a bad rule and needs to be tightened. Fans trash kids when they go back on a LOI or transfer but don't feel their school should be held equally accountable if they go against their agreement with the kid? This is a double standard. Is oversigning the catalyst for this behavior? Probably not, but it is the loophole that allows it to happen. The true root cause of this is college football programs viewing their student athletes as disposable and simply as tools to succeed. Not as people and not as students.

In terms of competitive advantage, it certainly does provide some level of advantage. Simply from a statistical standpoint it does. It is hard to judge how significant or minute that advantage is and it would definitely be circumstantial--but one exists. It is probably less of an advantage than monstrous athletic budgets, state-of-the-art facilities, and a campus that is equaled by very few. But it is still an advantage. What's more, the former aren't viewed to be ethically or morally questionable by many if any at all.

Conclusion:

Are all that oversign bad guys? No. I think there are some teams that have had a lot of success gambling in the oversigning game and haven't had to break any moral or ethical obligations to kids on scholarship. Are the few that abuse the opening in NCAA rules that allows oversigning? Yes, and in many cases those same programs are engaged in conduct that is just wrong when it comes to obligations they have to these kids. For that reason something needs to happen.
 
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Well, it is the Big Ten that is the outlier here. If your conference allowed it, I'm sure that Big Ten teams would do it too.
The big ten allows you to oversign. The only official rule is pretty similar to the SEC's Houston Nutt rule.

Tressel could sign 25 every year and jettison the extras like Saban is doing.
You're jacking the math up though. 25 x 4 is 100.

You can only have 85 on scholarship. While many colleges only take 17 kids when they have 17 departed seniors, a school like Alabama will still sign 25 or even go to 28-29 and then sort it out.
Particularly since at least half of that 5th year redshirted, adding a dozen or more scholarships to that 100 total.
 
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SmoovP;1858198; said:
And once again, until someone can prove to me that there are hoards of kids being hurt by the process, I'm going to have to give a pass on that one too.

I think this best illustrates the divide between SEC and B10 fans.

Most of us feel that if its one kid its one too many. You guys are willing to let harm come to a "few", and that number would always be negotiable, for the glory of chanting "SEC" after a ball game.
 
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SmoovP;1858198; said:
According to the oversigning.com website, the most egregious offender over the past 9 years is Auburn, who averages 28.11 signees per year.

That's a little over 3 per year oversigned...I think you guys are making a mountain out of a molehill.
The appropriate baseline for comparison isn't the maximum number of scholarships allowable, it's the number of scholarships the program in question has available. As billmac alluded to, no team can give out, and honor, 25 scholarships every year, because of the 85 scholarship limit. If you're signing at or near the single year limit of 25 every single year, you're probably oversigning. And a team that's averaging 28 signees per year isn't oversigning by three a year, they're oversigning by nearly eight. Every year. That's fairly significant.
 
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I've been sitting this one out, but I would like to make a point.

There's something missing from your discussion. Transferability of course credits. When a kid is cut from a school that oversigns, he generally will find that not all of his course credits will be accepted at another school. So, he doesn't only lose the ability to play for the team that offered him a scholarship--and a chance to join the [Tide, Gator, you name it,] family--he also loses progress towards his degree and is forced to earn a degree at a much less prestigious college.
 
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