Oversigning (capacity 25, everyone welcome! maybe)

[bassbuckeye07]

help arrives

Who wants some?

 

[Gatorubet]

You have NO stats that tell you it is a benefit? How about the fact that the last 4 schools to win national championships are from your conference, the conference that leads in this practice.

None of the D-line guys tearing it up in the BCSCGs were the iffy-maybe, last on board oversigned guys.

We won because of our fast athletic defensive lines more than anything. I doubt that - using your theory - four or five new freshmen replacing perceived about to be Senior flops was the reason Bama plunger raped Sparty on the first. But hold that thought.

Really, it is the west division. Oh wait, that division accounts for 3 of the 4 schools who won the title.

Which 2 schools have signed the most recruits in the past 4 years? Alabama and Auburn. Yep, west division teams and the winners of the last two championships.

You might have been absent during the extensive discussion regarding the nexus between oversigning and success, but to save you time, the Big East and ACC oversign like bitches and still suck more than conferences who undersign less. What to do about that?

The practice exists because it has a benefit to the a program. If there was no benefit then no one would participate in the inefficiency.

Nobody wants to be short of 85 good guys in our ultra competitive conference. I give you that.

I want to know if you think that the practice of oversigning benefits the product on the field. Yes or no?

Sorry. Define "oversigning" and delineate what practices it includes - other than having more guys with LOIs than say - y'all.

Oversigning guys who don't enroll means squat.*

* as a competitive advantage. Means the world to some poor kid who qualifies and is left out to dry.

 

[WilliamTSherman]

Who wants some?

Indeed.

In short order, I'll be taking care of a barn burnin' in southern 'bama. Then I'll be free.

 

[billmac91]

I wish I could get my chart to work on BP, but it does show a lot of shadiness...

Bama had 2 incoming freshman take medical scholarships, 1 take a gray-shirt, 1 had a last minute issue qualifying, and 2 players quit....

Not to mention they get to give out 4 Bear Bryant scholarships a year, lol. If the player touches the field they count, but irregardless its a quality player just sitting on the bench that doesn't go towards the 85.

I wasn't sure what side of the fence I'd be on, but this made it pretty clear. Alabama certainly played with the numbers....

http://alabama.scout.com/a.z?s=14&p=8&c=1&nid=4410288

Earl Alexander WR JR SR Eryk Anders DE SR Grad Javier Arenas CB SR Grad Jonathan Atchison LB FR* FR Mark Barron DB SO JR Kenny Bell WR FR FR Undra Billingsley DL FR* SO Chris Bonds DL FR FR John Michael Boswell OL SO JR Michael Bowman WR FR SO James Carpenter OL JR SR Josh Chapman DT SO JR Terrence Cody DT SR Grad Marcell Dareus DL SO JR Drew Davis OT SR Grad Luther Davis DE JR SR Brandon Deaderick DE SR* Grad Preston Dial TE JR SR P.J. Fitzgerald P SR Grad D.J. Fluker OL FR FR Nick Gentry DT SO JR Brandon Gibson WR SO JR Demetrius Goode RB SO JR Terry Grant TB JR Quit Robby Green DB SO JR Jeramie Griffin FB SO JR Darius Hanks WR JR JR Glenn Harbin LB FR* SO Jerrell Harris LB SO JR Dont'a Hightower LB SO SO Baron Huber FB SR Grad Mark Ingram TB SO JR Kareem Jackson CB JR Left Early Star Jackson QB FR* Transfer Marquis Johnson CB SR Grad Mike Johnson OG SR Grad Nico Johnson LB FR SO Barrett Jones OL SO SO Julio Jones WR SO JR Chris Jordan TB SO JR Kendall Kelly WR FR FR Dre Kirkpatrick DB FR SO Eddie Lacy RB FR FR Robert Lester S FR* SO Tyler Love OL SO SO Will Lowery DB SO JR Mike Marrow RB FR FR Ivan Matchett TB FR* Injury Marquis Maze WR SO JR A.J. McCarron QB FR FR Rolando McClain LB JR Left Early Mike McCoy WR SR Grad Alfred McCullough DL SO JR Greg McElroy QB JR* SR William Ming DL FR FR Brandon Moore DL FR FR Brian Motley OG JR SR Kerry Murphy DL FR SO Wesley Neighbors DB FR* SO Kevin Norwood WR FR FR Tana Patrick LB FR FR Colin Peek TE SR Grad Taylor Pharr OT JR SR Cory Reamer S SR Grad Trent Richardson RB FR SO Chris Rogers LC SR Grad David Ross OG JR SR B.J. Scott WR SO SO Darrington Sentimore DL FR FR Ali Sharrief HB SR Grad Travis Sikes S JR Quit Brad Smelley TE SO JR Damion Square DL FR* SO Anthony Steen OL FR FR Ed Stinson LB FR FR Milton Talbert DE JR Medical Hardhsip Leigh Tiffin K SR Grad Chris Underwood TE SO JR Roy Upchurch RB SR Grad Courtney Upshaw LB SO JR William Vlachos OL JR JR Chance Warmack OL FR FR Lorenzo Washington DT SR Grad Alex Watkins DL SO JR Chavis Williams DL JR SR Michael Williams DE FR* SO Rod Woodson DB FR SO Alex Baker LB SO #N/A David Blalock DL SO JR Drew Bullard LB JR JR Ty Burt LB SO #N/A Thomas Darrah QB SO* #N/A Michael DeJohn LB JR SR DeMarcus DuBose LB SO JR Rob Ezell WR JR SR Colin Gallagher K JR SR Hampton Gray DB SR #N/A Daren Hallman LS SO #N/A Mark Holt DB JR SR Alex Jackson WR SR #N/A Kelly Johnson LB SO #N/A Sam Kearns DB SO #N/A J.B. Kern LB SR SR Tyrone King Jr. DB SR #N/A Calvin Lee LB SO #N/A Tyler Maddox DB SO JR Morgan Ogilvie QB FR* FR Kyle Pennington DB JR JR Russell Raines OL FR FR Nick Saban C Chris Scott WR SR #N/A Brian Selman LS SR #N/A Jeremy Shelley K FR SO Allen Skelton OL SO SO William Strickland WR SO JR Melvin Taylor WR JR #N/A Heath Thomas P SR #N/A Carson Tinker LS SO SO Jacob Vane FB SR #N/A A.J. Walker WR JR #N/A David Williams OL FR* SO Nick Williams WR FR FR Justin Woodall S SR















Not sure how this chart will show in the post but I went and researched Alabama 2009 vs. 2010. Essentially, Alabama signed 29 players. From what I could tell, Alabama had 15 seniors in 2009. It looks like they had 4 Bear Bryant scholarship players, which would open 4 additional scholarships for 2010 as long as those players never played a snap. By my math, they would only be able to sign 19 players max. Of the 29 players signed last year a couple of interesting situations.

1. Darious McKeller as a freshman goes on medical leave. Doesn't count this year.

2. Terry Grant a soon to be senior quit the team.

3. Travis Sikes a soon to be senior safety quit the team.

4. Ivan Matchett a Redshirt freshman RB took a medical leave, doesn't count against scholarship limits.

5. Milton Talbertt a Junior DE takes a medical hardhip leave from football team. Doesn't count anymore towards team.

6. Harrison Jones forced to grey-shirt http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2...hirts_a_b.html

7. Deion Blue - late issue surfaced forcing him to go JUCO

8. Wilson Love took medical leave after breaking leg as early enrollee


So remember Alabama had 29 commits last year. They should of had max room for 19.

2 early enrollees came down with "injuries" allowing Bama to put them on medical scholarships. Gets you to 27 signed players.

1 player forced to grey-shirt. Down to 26.

2 upper-classmen quit the team (Travis Grant and Travis Sikes). Down to 24.

Ivan Matchett a redshirt freshman gets hurt getting you to 23.

Deion Blue had a last minute issue forcing him to go JUCO getting you to 22.

You had 3 juniors leave early.

Seems shady to me....

 

[cjmik_75]

After reading (particularly this thread) about oversigning it really doesn't sound like NCAA rules are being violated and "management" of a teams 85 scholarships are a necessary evil. Every conference has atleast one school that uses the "management" and it's effectiveness is still disputable. The competitive advantage issue would seem come up when a coach is offering a schollie to a kid, he accepts and signs a LOI, never produces and quits. In this case none of the schools that were on his offer list get a chance to "coach up" his talents and turn him into a productive player. Which would be counter productive to gaining a competitive advantage in the first place.

However, if schools were to make up athletic scholarships (Bear Bryant schollie) and those kids were allowed to practice and play in games but not count against the 85 it's definitely a competitive advantage. What's the deal w/ the Alabama schollie? Are those kids essentially "walk-ons" w/ full schollies? Do they count against the 85? I could see big programs using this to their advantage. What is stopping a school like Bama from offering 14 instead of just 4 schollies?

 

[ShakerBuck]

not sure if it has been posted in this thread, but here is a site that has a lot of info re: oversigning http://oversigning.com/testing/

a couple interesting clips

"There is something drastically wrong when a coach like Jim Tressel has 1 greyshirt and maybe 2 medical hardships in 10 years at Ohio State and Nick Saban has 12 medical hardships in 4 years and is looking at giving out 10 greyshirt offers this year. It's a problem and it's real. And LSU is no different - it's not just Alabama."

"Saban has roughly 8 scholarship seniors and he announced this week that 3 Juniors are leaving early for the NFL. That is roughly 11 scholarship openings. Let's be generous and say there are 15 openings. His class right now has 22 verbal commitments plus two players that accepted a grey shirt offer from last year and are expected to enroll this year. That makes 24 total scholarship commitments this year and only 15 at most openings....and Nick Saban is still pursuing recruits such as #1 ranked DE Clowney. "

"Tressel explains that one thing you never want to do is go over the limit but in order to sign everyone they wanted to sign they would have had to sign 30 guys. "

 

[cjmik_75]

Thanks Shaker, I've read quite a bit on that site too.

If info is out there, it's probably not lost on recruits. If they're willing to take the chance on being grey shirted or "cut" that's they're bed and they'll have to lie in it. If "shady" shit is going on and people (recruits and their parents) choose to look the other way or flat out don't care...so be it.

 

[Jaxbuck]

The same way that 'they' are trying to do something about the 'oversigning' issue, by shrieking about 'competitive advantage' and lobbying the NCAA for a rule.

Larger athletic budgets and $ spent per player don't harm student athletes., oversigning can. Calling this apples and oranges is an understatement.

I'll ask the question again to any SEC type that wants to take a swing at it; If the SEC doesn't think its a competitive advantage why do they oversign so much more than any other conference?

 

[DaveyBoy]

Does this make us a candidate for the next B10 conference expansion!?!?!

That's a good one.

But UGa is the closest thing there is to a smoking gun on this issue. Mark Richt was the cat's meow in the first half of the last decade as his Bulldog teams moved to the cusp of dominance of the SEC East. UF crashed the party with a great system coach and tons of instate talent that was running from FSU and Miami.

But I'm not sure how anyone could deny that oversigning creates a significant competitive advantage. All the evidence I"ve seen says so.

But the question is the morality of the issue. And morality is not a black and white issue. I'll take the morality of Jim Tressel over those snakes like Saban, Chizek, Nutt, and Miles.

 

[SmoovP]

Larger athletic budgets and $ spent per player don't harm student athletes., oversigning can. Calling this apples and oranges is an understatement.

I'll ask the question again to any SEC type that wants to take a swing at it; If the SEC doesn't think its a competitive advantage why do they oversign so much more than any other conference?

Now you've moved the goalposts.

If the standard is 'potential to harm student athletes', that is a very different thing than 'competitive advantage', which has been the hue and cry about this issue.

 

[SloopyHangOn]

Now you've moved the goalposts.

If the standard is 'potential to harm student athletes', that is a very different thing than 'competitive advantage', which has been the hue and cry about this issue.

So. You just like the sound of your own bullshit, huh?

 

[SmoovP]

So. You just like the sound of your own bull[Mark May], huh?

Seeing as how this is your house, I'll refrain from replying in kind.

 

[SloopyHangOn]

Seeing as how this is your house, I'll refrain from replying in kind.

Spare me. The passive-aggressive southern "class" is a bigger hoax than the return of Elvis, and you've mastered it.

Your "rebuttal" to the idea of competitive advantage due to oversigning is that programs such as Ohio State gain competitive advantage due to an inflated athletic budget, so the competitive advantage argument is moot. Correct?

Then you'd have to be an idiot not to recognize that you are indeed comparing apples and oranges. There are NCAA rules and regulations regarding oversigning that are clearly and evidently being broken and skirted. If competitive advantage WERE to be attained because of this, there would be no other word to describe it other than "cheating".

Show me where the evidence is regarding Ohio State, or any other big budget program, that suggests the breaking of any NCAA rules or regulations regarding athletic budget. IF it were to exist THEN your argument is valid.

Gaining a competitive advantage due to legal means is different than gaining them via "cheating". Now, I could make a gross generalization about the SWC and SEC and claim that Arkansans would know nothing about "legal means", but that would be stooping to the level of narcissism that you've already accomplished.

You've posted nothing but ancillary "fru-fru" on the subject and seem to be doing nothing but poking buttons, including mine. So if you've got nothing valuable to bring to the conversation AT LEAST don't pretend you are and drape your comments in glorious bullshit like I've done on numerous occasion in this thread.

Fair? I believe so.

 

[Deety]

Now you've moved the goalposts.

If the standard is 'potential to harm student athletes', that is a very different thing than 'competitive advantage', which has been the hue and cry about this issue.

So. You just like the sound of your own bullshit, huh?

Seeing as how this is your house, I'll refrain from replying in kind.

5 yards penalty for Sloopy... keep it civil, 'k?

But SmoovP, it seems to me that the "competitive advantage" stuff is in large part being brought up by our SEC visitors, and the majority of the Buckeye posts are about the effect on students, except when our guests are successful in their provocations. :)

 

[SmoovP]

But SmoovP, it seems to me that the "competitive advantage" stuff is in large part being brought up by our SEC visitors, and the majority of the Buckeye posts are about the effect on students, except when our guests are successful in their provocations. :)

I'll take your word for that as I'm not inclined to go through the entire thread and count.