Operation Chaos mode - BCS Title game contenders

[JXC]

Don't spin this into me defending the system. I never once came close to defending the system.

The only disagreement here is that you claim there is 0% chance the system could have put OSU in. I'm literally 100% sure that you were wrong in saying there's a 0% chance OSU would have made it unless you can explain to me why the computers would have OSU behind Cincy. Sure it may have happened, but seriously, how can you feel 100% that it would have?

I'm not going to waffle on this. You think there was a chance, that's fine, but you have no proof to back it up either. Nobody does because it didn't happen. I don't think there was a chance. I have no proof either, because again it didn't happen. But my point is made even if it could happen. My point is that a team like Ohio State (or Texas) in this case, can go into a season with no chance to win a NCG. None. Cincinnati, TCU, and Boise State had no chance. It's just a flawed system. But when BCS conference teams start having no chance, then it's a joke. And had the USC/Ohio State winner gone undefeated, then a big time school would have been left out even though they had no losses. This system has left undefeated mid-major and major conference teams out of the NCG. The system has left teams ranked #1 in both polls out of the NCG. The system has caused voters to vote with other intentions other than just voting who they really think the best team is. It's stupid. I fully believe an undefeated Ohio State would have ended up added to this list. I have no proof, just what I think. Just as nobody has any proof for the other side. And USC isn't in the top 25, unless you use the BCS rankings, but they wouldn't even be there had we beat them. Unless you want to say they would have done better in their season if we had beat them, which is even more silly that the argument we are having. Maybe if Ohio State was on Texas' heals, they would have won their games by more? Equally as silly of an argument. Maybe if Ohio State had beaten USC, Cincy would have not gotten fired up to try and win all their games, and they would have lost early in the season, and Florida would have beaten Alabama because they wanted a chance to beat Ohio State again, and Michigan would have rallied and won every game, until the played Ohio State of course.

 

[NateG]

We were just saying there IS a chance...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX5jNnDMfxA]YouTube - Dumb and Dumber 'There's a Chance'[/ame]

 

[BB73]

I'm not going to waffle on this. You think there was a chance, that's fine, but you have no proof to back it up either. Nobody does because it didn't happen. I don't think there was a chance. I have no proof either, because again it didn't happen. But my point is made even if it could happen. My point is that a team like Ohio State (or Texas) in this case, can go into a season with no chance to win a NCG. None. Cincinnati, TCU, and Boise State had no chance.

While I agree with your opinion that an undefeated tOSU would have likely finished third behind Texas this year, your statement that it was a 100% certainty is what folks are objecting to. And our not being able to prove that statement to be incorrect doesn't make it correct. It's a strong opinion that you have, it's not a fact.

And your statement that, going into the season, Cincy and TCU had no chance to win the NCG is difficult to comprehend, when one of the other was 1 second away from playing Alabama.

 

[JXC]

While I agree with your opinion that an undefeated tOSU would have likely finished third behind Texas this year, your statement that it was a 100% certainty is what folks are objecting to. And our not being able to prove that statement to be incorrect doesn't make it correct. It's a strong opinion that you have, it's not a fact.

And your statement that, going into the season, Cincy and TCU had no chance to win the NCG is difficult to comprehend, when one of the other was 1 second away from playing Alabama.

As things played out, cincinnati had no chance. There was nothing THEY could have done to get into the game is what i'm saying. Maybe if they won each game 60-3, but I don't think any school, even Alabama, could do that.

And I am 100% sure about a 12-0 Ohio State being #3. I have no doubts. It doesn't mean others can't. We've got no way to prove it.


The main reason I feel this way is because of the bowl game last year. This would have been the main topic because the teams are less than a year removed from that game, and the same main players are back.

Other reasons include our recent BCS championship games vs. Texas'. We also had our chance in 2006, and 2007. Texas didn't get their chance last year. This would weigh in people's minds. Let's be honest. Cincinnati and TCU looked better than Texas this year in a lot of ways. But people found ways to write them off. Texas' defense got exposed vs. A&M and their offense got exposed last week. Maybe Cincinnati's defense has been exposed, but their offense hasn't. And nobody has been able to expose any part of TCU's game. And all three of these teams played relatively weak schedules and in conferences that were considered weak this year. Big Ten is also considered weak, whether it is fair or not. But Texas was people's baby this year, so they get pushed through. If people thought that Texas deserved to lose this weekend, then why didn't they drop them?

Plus it's hard for Ohio State to move up unless a team loses because they don't play the last few weeks. If a team loses, then it helps them, but if a team barely wins, they don't have the same chance to move up as if they had a game and won.

Ohio State also has a weaker SOS than Texas. And your SOS doesn't go up based on whether you won or lost the game, it's just how good the teams were that you played. And actually Ohio State's SOS would go down had they won all their games, because USC and Purdue would have 1 more loss each.

My argument was that the way things played out, if Ohio State had beaten Purdue and USC, and you chance NOTHING else, Texas would have been chosen over Ohio State. If you start making USC a top 5 team and change other things, then maybe. But that stuff it out of Ohio State's hands. What I argued is that had only things changed that Ohio State had control over (those 2 losses) then they still wouldn't have been chosen. They were helpless. It wasn't in their hands from the beginning. We didn't know it at the time, but that's how everything played out that they didn't have a hand in.

These fact are not proof, they are just the reasons that I came to my conclusion and personally am 100% sure. If you aren't, that's your own decision. I'm sure there are many things that I am 100% sure in (ex. God) that other of you aren't.

And again...the main point here is that it's shame that a team can win all it's games, in a major conference, and needs other teams that have nothing to do with them to pull of crazy upsets, or else they don't get a chance at a NCG. If it weren't for Florida beating Georgia in 2002, we would have been in the same boat. But what did Florida pulling an upset have to do with how good we were? Nothing. At least with a playoff, the debate would be over teams that had lost a game or two, and then you could at least say to those teams, "Win all your games and then you wouldn't need help to get in the playoff." But in this crazy BCS world we live in, what can you say to these teams? "Sorry you won all your games but don't get a shot. Good season though. Maybe you should join the SEC."

We shouldn't even be having this discussion because this system shouldn't even exist.

 

[NateG]

Our issue vs your anti system/fluid "what if" argument

You know it isn't anything personal but I think you are missing the point of our posts.

 

[NateG]

The issue with well change 2 games but nothing else isn't a very solid argument. You know that a team is a progressive thing that is built off of confidence as much as experience and skill. The mentality that OSU took into Purdue is different than the mentality they took into State Penn, Iowa, and scUM. Same would go for USC and Purdue. USC took the mentality that OSU had vs Purdue into their game against Washington.

 

[JXC]

The issue with well change 2 games but nothing else isn't a very solid argument. You know that a team is a progressive thing that is built off of confidence as much as experience and skill. The mentality that OSU took into Purdue is different than the mentality they took into State Penn, Iowa, and scUM. Same would go for USC and Purdue. USC took the mentality that OSU had vs Purdue into their game against Washington.

Or maybe USC would have lost even more games...we don't know. That's why i'm not changing anything else, because we just don't know. Had USC finished with 10 wins, then yes, maybe Ohio State would have had a chance to move ahead of Texas. But that would have been out of Ohio State's hands. So yes, if you make us 12-0, and change a bunch of other things, too, then yes, maybe we do get ranked #2. I just think that's an even more silly argument then the one we are having. Maybe if we beat USC it sets off a chain reaction in which Texas misses that field goal. Who knows. I'm well versed in chaos theory, and i'm trying not to apply it to this hypothetical argument. If you want to go that direction though, then no hypothetical argument is possible.

If a butterfly flapping it's wings can cause a hurricane, then I'm pretty sure changing the outcome of a football game can change every other FBS team's season too.

So if Ohio State was 12-0, USC was 11-1, then heck yeah we'd be #2. But again, that would have been out of our hands.

 

[NateG]

Did you have the chance to watch USC against Washington or just highlights? Cause it had the EXACT same feeling as the OSU/Purdon't fiasco. The players felt as if they just walked out there with USC on their chest and they roll... just like the year before. Interchange that one game and no one know the snowball affect....that's why neither have a yes or no answer but a likely or not likely. A chance was possible. Because if TCU and Cincy were in the discussion even for 1 second when that kick went thru for Texas, you bet your stars and stripes that OSU would have been in that same discussion to a higher degree.

 

[JXC]

Did you have the chance to watch USC against Washington or just highlights? Cause it had the EXACT same feeling as the OSU/Purdon't fiasco. The players felt as if they just walked out there with USC on their chest and they roll... just like the year before. Interchange that one game and no one know the snowball affect....that's why neither have a yes or no answer but a likely or not likely. A chance was possible. Because if TCU and Cincy were in the discussion even for 1 second when that kick went thru for Texas, you bet your stars and stripes that OSU would have been in that same discussion to a higher degree.

Right...but the kick went through. Cincy and TCU and OSU had nothing to do with the kick. Cincy and TCU's hopes were killed right there with that kick. So as it played out, they had no chance. And as we can see now, with them not being in the NCG, they have no chance to win a NC. None.

Like you just said, nobody knows the snowball affect. My argument wasn't based on it, because that's an unknown. My argument was, if you add one loss to USC, add one loss to Purdue, and add two wins to Ohio State, that we are sitting at #3. How many times do I have to say that?

 

[jwinslow]

Right...but the kick went through. Cincy and TCU and OSU had nothing to do with the kick. Cincy and TCU's hopes were killed right there with that kick. So as it played out, they had no chance.

Then maybe they should play a big boy schedule. Texas' schedule was set up with a defending champion and other 2nd/3rd tier opponents. Cincinnati's schedule was set up with a lot of 3rd tier or worse opponents.

When a team like Texas 08 gets left out, they got screwed.
When a cakewalking squad like Auburn or Cincinnati gets left out, they screwed themselves.

If Cincinnati beats 1-2 BCS powers in OOC play, then voters have a decision to make when Texas limps into the bowl season.

When Cincinnati plays nobody besides the weakest conference in football, there is no decision to make in their minds.

 

[BB73]

As things played out, cincinnati had no chance. There was nothing THEY could have done to get into the game is what i'm saying. Maybe if they won each game 60-3, but I don't think any school, even Alabama, could do that.

And I am 100% sure about a 12-0 Ohio State being #3. I have no doubts. It doesn't mean others can't. We've got no way to prove it.


The main reason I feel this way is because of the bowl game last year. This would have been the main topic because the teams are less than a year removed from that game, and the same main players are back.

Other reasons include our recent BCS championship games vs. Texas'. We also had our chance in 2006, and 2007. Texas didn't get their chance last year. This would weigh in people's minds. Let's be honest. Cincinnati and TCU looked better than Texas this year in a lot of ways. But people found ways to write them off. Texas' defense got exposed vs. A&M and their offense got exposed last week. Maybe Cincinnati's defense has been exposed, but their offense hasn't. And nobody has been able to expose any part of TCU's game. And all three of these teams played relatively weak schedules and in conferences that were considered weak this year. Big Ten is also considered weak, whether it is fair or not. But Texas was people's baby this year, so they get pushed through. If people thought that Texas deserved to lose this weekend, then why didn't they drop them?

Plus it's hard for Ohio State to move up unless a team loses because they don't play the last few weeks. If a team loses, then it helps them, but if a team barely wins, they don't have the same chance to move up as if they had a game and won.

Ohio State also has a weaker SOS than Texas. And your SOS doesn't go up based on whether you won or lost the game, it's just how good the teams were that you played. And actually Ohio State's SOS would go down had they won all their games, because USC and Purdue would have 1 more loss each.

My argument was that the way things played out, if Ohio State had beaten Purdue and USC, and you chance NOTHING else, Texas would have been chosen over Ohio State. If you start making USC a top 5 team and change other things, then maybe. But that stuff it out of Ohio State's hands. What I argued is that had only things changed that Ohio State had control over (those 2 losses) then they still wouldn't have been chosen. They were helpless. It wasn't in their hands from the beginning. We didn't know it at the time, but that's how everything played out that they didn't have a hand in.

These fact are not proof, they are just the reasons that I came to my conclusion and personally am 100% sure. If you aren't, that's your own decision. I'm sure there are many things that I am 100% sure in (ex. God) that other of you aren't.

And again...the main point here is that it's shame that a team can win all it's games, in a major conference, and needs other teams that have nothing to do with them to pull of crazy upsets, or else they don't get a chance at a NCG. If it weren't for Florida beating Georgia in 2002, we would have been in the same boat. But what did Florida pulling an upset have to do with how good we were? Nothing. At least with a playoff, the debate would be over teams that had lost a game or two, and then you could at least say to those teams, "Win all your games and then you wouldn't need help to get in the playoff." But in this crazy BCS world we live in, what can you say to these teams? "Sorry you won all your games but don't get a shot. Good season though. Maybe you should join the SEC."

We shouldn't even be having this discussion because this system shouldn't even exist.

Changing only a couple of things is different than saying teams like Cincy and TCU had no chance before the season started.

And this is NOT a 'we need a playoff' thread. We've got enough of those. You can bang that drum, but I don't read to read it all over the boards.

 

[BB73]

Right...but the kick went through. Cincy and TCU and OSU had nothing to do with the kick. Cincy and TCU's hopes were killed right there with that kick. So as it played out, they had no chance. And as we can see now, with them not being in the NCG, they have no chance to win a NC. None.

Like you just said, nobody knows the snowball affect. My argument wasn't based on it, because that's an unknown. My argument was, if you add one loss to USC, add one loss to Purdue, and add two wins to Ohio State, that we are sitting at #3. How many times do I have to say that?

No more for me, I already agreed with that statement. And I'd rather not continue debating a topic with someone who claims they know something that's very hypothetical to be 100% true, and seems to change what he's saying when the problems with his statements are pointed out.