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- Thread starter Jaxbuck
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crazybuckfan40
Head Coach
Hey Jax you know I am gonna keep asking you this until you are happy, but what do you think now.
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I think the same thing I said before we started this stretch of games.
The defenses we are playing are going to make the offense look good and people will be coming out of the wood work to say "I told you so" for gaudy numbers aginst an IU/Minny/Illinois/NU and acting like the offense hasn't been a consistent problem for 5 years now.
Let me ask you this, how did you feel about the offense after PSU and UT? Or is all that forgiven now because we put up 80 more yards than Minnesota averages giving up?
A wins always better than a loss and the O did look good yesterday but I am not about to concede the point that some fundamental changes need to be made on the offenseive coaching staff just because we are hitting the cupcake portion of the schedule.
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crazybuckfan40
Head Coach
After those two games I felt that their was total lack of execution. That is what I was preachin' after those two loses when everyone was calling for JT's head as the cordinator.
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So its been execution for 5 years huh?
Thats a pretty amazing streak. Wonder how it is all these different players keep having execution problems over such a long period of time?
I know you probably have a season by season, if not game by game, list of why its all just execution and I don't really want to go over all of it again to tell you the truth.
Suffice it to say while I am obviously happy with the results the past couple of weeks I'm not drinking any Kool-Aid over beating up on terrible defenses.
JT is ultimately responsible for the consistently underperforming offense since his arrival. Changes need to be made this off season or we'll be repeating this tired old act again next year after a couple of losses where the offense costs us the game.
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Nor are you willing to factor in the credit for the two stellar defenses that shut down the offense this year...and the Bucks still had a number of opportunities to win both of those games.
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The reason this debate never gets anyone anywhere is that you guys want to look at one game or even one season in microcasim, I'm going by the entire body of work since JT's been here. There has been a lot more bad than good as far as Offense is concerned.
You guys want to give the O a pass for the IU's of the world...I say everyone beats those teams up. What does the O do against the 2 or 3 teams a year who are good enough to beat our Defense and Special teams without some help from the Offense? Thats how I measure it.
The sputtering, gagging, herky jerky sometimes good most times bad underachieving offense has been consistent from 2001 to present. We put great numbers on IU in 2003 as well, anyone want to try and convince me we had a good offense that year?
I don't understand the resistance to the idea of revamping the offensive coaching staff. Can anyone here HONESTLY say they feel anything other than suprise when the offense does have a good day?
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No, I understand your point of view...I do.
To me, football is not about numbers...it is about wins, momentum, and decision making.
When the OL and QB are executing, this offense is excellent. When they are not...well, its ugly.
The funny thing is, I haven't seen any change in the playcalling, but I have seen a major improvement in the execution and mental performance. Watching Troy Smith check off at the line then hit Gonzo on the seam was beautiful. He would not have done that or even seen it 3 weeks ago.
As you gave your perspective on this debate, I will as well. The reason it gets nowhere is because folks like you are so set in the negative perceptions of the offense that it is a no win for the squad. If they perform well, it is because the other defense sucks. If they struggle against a stellar defense, Tressel sucks as an OC. There is no way to succeed in that mindset.
Sure, JT is overly cautious at times, but his formula is a proven success. I'm not sure how he is at fault for missed reads, fumbles, and mental mistakes that seem to hamstring the offense at times, but you sure are set that it is his responsibilty. Go ahead and throw out the obligatory "head coach/ultimate responsibilty" line...but I will tell you from numerous nights of aggravation, what happens on the field is not always what is coached. Sometimes it works beautifully and other times it is disasterous. If the game was played on paper, everyone would be a helluva coach.
I saw a great line from CDiddy on BN$. He said he hopes all of the offensive critics are reincarnated as Purdue fans...then they will at least be able to cheer a great offensive system even if they never win when it counts.
A coach's job is to put his players in a position to win. I'd say JT does one hell of a job at that.
To me, football is not about numbers...it is about wins, momentum, and decision making.
When the OL and QB are executing, this offense is excellent. When they are not...well, its ugly.
The funny thing is, I haven't seen any change in the playcalling, but I have seen a major improvement in the execution and mental performance. Watching Troy Smith check off at the line then hit Gonzo on the seam was beautiful. He would not have done that or even seen it 3 weeks ago.
As you gave your perspective on this debate, I will as well. The reason it gets nowhere is because folks like you are so set in the negative perceptions of the offense that it is a no win for the squad. If they perform well, it is because the other defense sucks. If they struggle against a stellar defense, Tressel sucks as an OC. There is no way to succeed in that mindset.
Sure, JT is overly cautious at times, but his formula is a proven success. I'm not sure how he is at fault for missed reads, fumbles, and mental mistakes that seem to hamstring the offense at times, but you sure are set that it is his responsibilty. Go ahead and throw out the obligatory "head coach/ultimate responsibilty" line...but I will tell you from numerous nights of aggravation, what happens on the field is not always what is coached. Sometimes it works beautifully and other times it is disasterous. If the game was played on paper, everyone would be a helluva coach.
I saw a great line from CDiddy on BN$. He said he hopes all of the offensive critics are reincarnated as Purdue fans...then they will at least be able to cheer a great offensive system even if they never win when it counts.
A coach's job is to put his players in a position to win. I'd say JT does one hell of a job at that.
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Troy checked off of WRs, stood in the pocket all day, scrambled to buy time before passing (multiple times! talk about improvement in his performance and decision making), and didn't turn it over once.
Jax, you place "us" in a box, acting as though we are giddy school girls that squeal with delight over the last few games, and lose all sight of the earlier games. The reality is that non of us are completely pleased with the body of work, but understand that the difference in execution was night and day between the early losses and yesterday's game.
Troy got pressure a lot yesterday. Against PSU, he was still struggling to find himself, he didn't scramble, throw well, look off the coverage, etc. The game is now slowing down for him. When pressured, he is now stepping up, buying time, scrambling when appropriate, and checking off of his primary read. Most of that didn't happen before. If it had, Tressel's team woudl probably be undefeated and we would be visiting USC boards to talk major smack.
How many wrinkles and great playcalls does JT have to make vs. Minny before he gets any credit at all? How many times did he look great b/c Troy executed as a QB and got the ball to the WRs? Or the OL executed and gave Pittman room to run?
JT went deep. He ran east-west with the run, which opened up the middle for some big runs. Troy ran a great screen. Pittman took a HB sweep (pass option), but held onto it and went for 13 yds. Those were all things people were screaming for early on in the year, and now they are being done, but its just b/c the opposing defense stinks.
Jax, you place "us" in a box, acting as though we are giddy school girls that squeal with delight over the last few games, and lose all sight of the earlier games. The reality is that non of us are completely pleased with the body of work, but understand that the difference in execution was night and day between the early losses and yesterday's game.
Troy got pressure a lot yesterday. Against PSU, he was still struggling to find himself, he didn't scramble, throw well, look off the coverage, etc. The game is now slowing down for him. When pressured, he is now stepping up, buying time, scrambling when appropriate, and checking off of his primary read. Most of that didn't happen before. If it had, Tressel's team woudl probably be undefeated and we would be visiting USC boards to talk major smack.
How many wrinkles and great playcalls does JT have to make vs. Minny before he gets any credit at all? How many times did he look great b/c Troy executed as a QB and got the ball to the WRs? Or the OL executed and gave Pittman room to run?
JT went deep. He ran east-west with the run, which opened up the middle for some big runs. Troy ran a great screen. Pittman took a HB sweep (pass option), but held onto it and went for 13 yds. Those were all things people were screaming for early on in the year, and now they are being done, but its just b/c the opposing defense stinks.
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A combination of 34th in rushing and 15th in passing efficiency isn't fantastic, but it clearly doesn't suck.
I don't think I've ever seen it, but I believe it would be interesting to rank offenses based on a percentage of yards available gained per possession. That allows a team that scores on a 50-yard drive after a good kick return to get a 100% on that drive, while a team that starts at their own 20 and drives 60 yards before kicking a FG would get 75% for that drive (60 of 80 available yards). Thus, the TD drive is more efficient than the long FG drive, rather than looking at just total offensive yards.
Of the fairly common categories, IMO, offenses should be evaluated on points per possession, average yards per snap, and turnovers. This new statistic, % of available yards gained, would be another useful measure.
I think that both total yards and time of possession can be misleading.
I don't think I've ever seen it, but I believe it would be interesting to rank offenses based on a percentage of yards available gained per possession. That allows a team that scores on a 50-yard drive after a good kick return to get a 100% on that drive, while a team that starts at their own 20 and drives 60 yards before kicking a FG would get 75% for that drive (60 of 80 available yards). Thus, the TD drive is more efficient than the long FG drive, rather than looking at just total offensive yards.
Of the fairly common categories, IMO, offenses should be evaluated on points per possession, average yards per snap, and turnovers. This new statistic, % of available yards gained, would be another useful measure.
I think that both total yards and time of possession can be misleading.
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Pheasant
This space for rent.
That would be an interesting way of looking at it. This leads me to go off topic :p with something I would like to see. Running backs/receivers yards per carry/catch figured without including touchdowns. When you have the number, figure in all touchdown runs/catches longer than that number, then re-figure it. It doesn't make sense to penalize them for scoring. I've never seen this done, but if it has been then just tell me where and in the future ignore me
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BuckPride
Junior
Jaxbuck,
Keep the stats coming, I apprecitate the information. I do disagree with you on some issues as stated before. But I will move on.
Everyone seems glued to the Total Offense stats including Columbus Dispatch and other media outlets. Here is the current stats below for Big 10. I'll take the bottom half of teams against the Top 5 in this category. Who would have the better group of teams!!!
TOTAL OFFENSE G Rush Pass Plays Yards Avg/P TD Yds/G
----------------------------------------------------------------
You can have these teams....
1. Michigan State...... 8 1804 2457 625 4261 6.8 39 532.6
2. Northwestern........ 8 1586 2534 629 4120 6.6 34 515.0
3. Minnesota........... 8 2276 1734 623 4010 6.4 35 501.2
4. Purdue.............. 8 1344 2108 617 3452 5.6 27 431.5
5. Penn State.......... 9 1945 1909 613 3854 6.3 36 428.2
I will take these teams.....
6. Iowa................ 8 1414 1870 539 3284 6.1 27 410.5
7. Wisconsin........... 9 1682 1907 634 3589 5.7 42 398.8
8. Michigan............ 9 1561 1970 676 3531 5.2 27 392.3
9. Ohio State.......... 8 1448 1637 532 3085 5.8 24 385.6
10.Illinois............ 8 1305 1731 604 3036 5.0 18 379.5
11.Indiana............. 8 1123 1847 624 2970 4.8 26 371.2
To me it says that this stat is really misleading, yet we see the experts using it like its the bible. Thats my beef!
Keep the stats coming, I apprecitate the information. I do disagree with you on some issues as stated before. But I will move on.
Everyone seems glued to the Total Offense stats including Columbus Dispatch and other media outlets. Here is the current stats below for Big 10. I'll take the bottom half of teams against the Top 5 in this category. Who would have the better group of teams!!!
TOTAL OFFENSE G Rush Pass Plays Yards Avg/P TD Yds/G
----------------------------------------------------------------
You can have these teams....
1. Michigan State...... 8 1804 2457 625 4261 6.8 39 532.6
2. Northwestern........ 8 1586 2534 629 4120 6.6 34 515.0
3. Minnesota........... 8 2276 1734 623 4010 6.4 35 501.2
4. Purdue.............. 8 1344 2108 617 3452 5.6 27 431.5
5. Penn State.......... 9 1945 1909 613 3854 6.3 36 428.2
I will take these teams.....
6. Iowa................ 8 1414 1870 539 3284 6.1 27 410.5
7. Wisconsin........... 9 1682 1907 634 3589 5.7 42 398.8
8. Michigan............ 9 1561 1970 676 3531 5.2 27 392.3
9. Ohio State.......... 8 1448 1637 532 3085 5.8 24 385.6
10.Illinois............ 8 1305 1731 604 3036 5.0 18 379.5
11.Indiana............. 8 1123 1847 624 2970 4.8 26 371.2
To me it says that this stat is really misleading, yet we see the experts using it like its the bible. Thats my beef!
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Through games played 11/5/05
[pre]<TABLE class=statstable><TBODY><TR><TH colSpan=8>TEAM RANKINGS</TH></TR><TR><TH colSpan=8>117 teams ranked in Division IA</TH></TR><TR><TH colSpan=8>11 teams ranked in Big Ten Conference</TH></TR><TR><TH>Category</TH><TH>National
Rank
</TH><TH>Actual</TH><TH>National
Leader
</TH><TH>Actual</TH><TH>Conf
Rank
</TH><TH>Big Ten Conference
Leader
</TH><TH>Actual</TH></TR><TR><TD>Rushing Offense </TD><TD>31</TD><TD>183.33</TD><TD>Minnesota </TD><TD>291.44</TD><TD align=middle>5</TD><TD>Minnesota </TD><TD>291.44</TD></TR><TR><TD>Passing Offense </TD><TD>68</TD><TD>217.89</TD><TD>Texas Tech </TD><TD>433.33</TD><TD align=middle>8</TD><TD>Northwestern </TD><TD>319.11</TD></TR><TR><TD>Total Offense </TD><TD>41</TD><TD>401.22</TD><TD>Southern California </TD><TD>593.56</TD><TD align=middle>7</TD><TD>Michigan St. </TD><TD>512.44</TD></TR><TR><TD>Scoring Offense </TD><TD>32</TD><TD>31.67</TD><TD>Southern California </TD><TD>49.89</TD><TD align=middle>6</TD><TD>Wisconsin </TD><TD>37.10</TD></TR><TR><TD>Rushing Defense </TD><TD>3</TD><TD>76.56</TD><TD>Kansas </TD><TD>64.11</TD><TD align=middle>1</TD><TD>Ohio St. </TD><TD>76.56</TD></TR><TR><TD>Pass Efficiency Defense </TD><TD>49</TD><TD>119.37</TD><TD>Miami (Fla.) </TD><TD>73.09</TD><TD align=middle>5</TD><TD>Penn St. </TD><TD>106.41</TD></TR><TR><TD>Total Defense </TD><TD>7</TD><TD>280.22</TD><TD>Miami (Fla.) </TD><TD>214.75</TD><TD align=middle>1</TD><TD>Ohio St. </TD><TD>280.22</TD></TR><TR><TD>Scoring Defense </TD><TD>8</TD><TD>15.00</TD><TD>Alabama </TD><TD>8.22</TD><TD align=middle>1</TD><TD>Ohio St. </TD><TD>15.00</TD></TR><TR><TD>Net Punting </TD><TD>12</TD><TD>37.71</TD><TD>Wake Forest </TD><TD>41.41</TD><TD align=middle>2</TD><TD>Wisconsin </TD><TD>38.22</TD></TR><TR><TD>Punt Returns </TD><TD>21</TD><TD>12.39</TD><TD>UCLA </TD><TD>26.76</TD><TD align=middle>4</TD><TD>Northwestern </TD><TD>19.75</TD></TR><TR><TD>Kickoff Returns </TD><TD>14</TD><TD>24.72</TD><TD>Auburn </TD><TD>33.12</TD><TD align=middle>1</TD><TD>Ohio St. </TD><TD>24.72</TD></TR><TR><TD>Turnover Margin </TD><TD>96</TD><TD>-.67</TD><TD>TCU </TD><TD>1.90</TD><TD align=middle>10</TD><TD>Northwestern </TD><TD>.89</TD></TR><TR><TD>Pass Defense </TD><TD>38</TD><TD>203.67</TD><TD>Miami (Fla.) </TD><TD>117.38</TD><TD align=middle>1</TD><TD>Ohio St. </TD><TD>203.67</TD></TR><TR><TD>Passing Efficiency </TD><TD>9</TD><TD>156.39</TD><TD>Southern California </TD><TD>167.18</TD><TD align=middle>2</TD><TD>Michigan St. </TD><TD>160.05</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>[/pre]
1 more really bad defense left to whup up on before the final exam up in AA. Lets hope all the good mojo finds its way up there with us.
[pre]<TABLE class=statstable><TBODY><TR><TH colSpan=8>TEAM RANKINGS</TH></TR><TR><TH colSpan=8>117 teams ranked in Division IA</TH></TR><TR><TH colSpan=8>11 teams ranked in Big Ten Conference</TH></TR><TR><TH>Category</TH><TH>National
Rank
</TH><TH>Actual</TH><TH>National
Leader
</TH><TH>Actual</TH><TH>Conf
Rank
</TH><TH>Big Ten Conference
Leader
</TH><TH>Actual</TH></TR><TR><TD>Rushing Offense </TD><TD>31</TD><TD>183.33</TD><TD>Minnesota </TD><TD>291.44</TD><TD align=middle>5</TD><TD>Minnesota </TD><TD>291.44</TD></TR><TR><TD>Passing Offense </TD><TD>68</TD><TD>217.89</TD><TD>Texas Tech </TD><TD>433.33</TD><TD align=middle>8</TD><TD>Northwestern </TD><TD>319.11</TD></TR><TR><TD>Total Offense </TD><TD>41</TD><TD>401.22</TD><TD>Southern California </TD><TD>593.56</TD><TD align=middle>7</TD><TD>Michigan St. </TD><TD>512.44</TD></TR><TR><TD>Scoring Offense </TD><TD>32</TD><TD>31.67</TD><TD>Southern California </TD><TD>49.89</TD><TD align=middle>6</TD><TD>Wisconsin </TD><TD>37.10</TD></TR><TR><TD>Rushing Defense </TD><TD>3</TD><TD>76.56</TD><TD>Kansas </TD><TD>64.11</TD><TD align=middle>1</TD><TD>Ohio St. </TD><TD>76.56</TD></TR><TR><TD>Pass Efficiency Defense </TD><TD>49</TD><TD>119.37</TD><TD>Miami (Fla.) </TD><TD>73.09</TD><TD align=middle>5</TD><TD>Penn St. </TD><TD>106.41</TD></TR><TR><TD>Total Defense </TD><TD>7</TD><TD>280.22</TD><TD>Miami (Fla.) </TD><TD>214.75</TD><TD align=middle>1</TD><TD>Ohio St. </TD><TD>280.22</TD></TR><TR><TD>Scoring Defense </TD><TD>8</TD><TD>15.00</TD><TD>Alabama </TD><TD>8.22</TD><TD align=middle>1</TD><TD>Ohio St. </TD><TD>15.00</TD></TR><TR><TD>Net Punting </TD><TD>12</TD><TD>37.71</TD><TD>Wake Forest </TD><TD>41.41</TD><TD align=middle>2</TD><TD>Wisconsin </TD><TD>38.22</TD></TR><TR><TD>Punt Returns </TD><TD>21</TD><TD>12.39</TD><TD>UCLA </TD><TD>26.76</TD><TD align=middle>4</TD><TD>Northwestern </TD><TD>19.75</TD></TR><TR><TD>Kickoff Returns </TD><TD>14</TD><TD>24.72</TD><TD>Auburn </TD><TD>33.12</TD><TD align=middle>1</TD><TD>Ohio St. </TD><TD>24.72</TD></TR><TR><TD>Turnover Margin </TD><TD>96</TD><TD>-.67</TD><TD>TCU </TD><TD>1.90</TD><TD align=middle>10</TD><TD>Northwestern </TD><TD>.89</TD></TR><TR><TD>Pass Defense </TD><TD>38</TD><TD>203.67</TD><TD>Miami (Fla.) </TD><TD>117.38</TD><TD align=middle>1</TD><TD>Ohio St. </TD><TD>203.67</TD></TR><TR><TD>Passing Efficiency </TD><TD>9</TD><TD>156.39</TD><TD>Southern California </TD><TD>167.18</TD><TD align=middle>2</TD><TD>Michigan St. </TD><TD>160.05</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>[/pre]
1 more really bad defense left to whup up on before the final exam up in AA. Lets hope all the good mojo finds its way up there with us.
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ShakerBuck
Hall of Fame
Pretty impressive that our scoring defense is #8 overall and we've played 5 of top 16 scoring offenses in the nation thus far
Texas #2
MSU #11
Minny #12
PSU #15
Miami (OH) #16
NW #22
scUM #50 (thought they'd be higher)
Texas #2
MSU #11
Minny #12
PSU #15
Miami (OH) #16
NW #22
scUM #50 (thought they'd be higher)
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