Game Thread Ohio State vs Oklahoma, 09/09/17 @ 7:30 ET (ABC)

[Bill Lucas]

Would you take the "disruptive DL any day" versus a championship caliber O-line such as these recent national champion offenses???


1995 Nebraska vs. Florida



2000 Oklahoma vs. Florida State



2001 Miami vs. Nebraska



2004 USC vs. Oklahoma



2006 Florida vs. Ohio State



2008 Florida vs. Oklahoma



2012 Alabama vs. Notre Dame



2014 Ohio State vs. Alabama



2015 Alabama vs. Clemson



2016 Clemson vs. Alabama

Your point would be more valid if this game were later in the season. It generally takes longer for the offensive line to gel. Oklahoma will also not see a defensive lines that comes at them in waves (rotations) like Ohio State will do at any other point in the season. It will be a stern test for both units but I believe depth and speed from the linebacker position will win out. Mayfield is going up against guys he can't outrun when he gets pressured and blitzed.

 

[RCSooner1974]

Your point would be more valid if this game were later in the season. It generally takes longer for the offensive line to gel. Oklahoma will also not see a defensive lines that comes at them in waves (rotations) like Ohio State will do at any other point in the season. It will be a stern test for both units but I believe depth and speed from the linebacker position will win out. Mayfield is going up against guys he can't outrun when he gets pressured and blitzed.

Why more valid late in the season if not in September? And besides, OU's offense is already gelled with the exception of reloading at the skill positions to replace Perine, Mixon, and Westbrook.

And I would beg to differ about your prediction that Mayfield won't outrun and outplay your defense. The Buckeyes defense will be very good, but Mayfield went up against a strong SEC front seven in the Sugar Bowl and was able to scramble away from a few sacks from guys like Carl Lawson and Montravius Adams on the Auburn defense. You might say it's not saying much when comparing the Auburn D to the Ohio State D, but I would bet Mayfield will become much more elusive in the pocket now that he's a senior QB.

 

[jwinslow]

2006 UF - OSU = DL wins
2007 LSU > OSU = DL wins
2008 UF & OU = DL wins
2009 AL > UT = DL dominated for both sides. Bama broke McCoy and limited Garrett the terrible. Texas single handedly stayed in the game with their defensive front.

(2010 AUB > OR = otherwise weak AUB D was very disruptive thanks to talented DL and limited high flying oregon O)

2011 AL > LSU = defensive slugfest with next to no offense


That's 5 out of 6 games where the defensive fronts ruled the day, and I'd argue the DL was a huge difference in the exception to the rule in 2010)


2012 AL > ND = outclassed in every phase. Not really proof of anything except ND being terrible
2013 FSU > AUB = FSU struggled a ton upfront, as Auburn's DL caused major problems (and hid their leaky D for awhile). Auburn meanwhile had success on the ground and lost.
2014 OSU > OR = ate Oregon alive with their DL and LBs living in the backfield. Meanwhile Oregon's underwhelming D and front could not keep pace with OSU's front.
2015 AL > CLEM = offensive shootout won by AL with minimal D
2016 CLEM > AL = offensive shootout won by Clem with stout run D by AL and torrential pressure on Watson that he overcame


I'd argue that all of those games except 2015 showed the dominance of a strong DL. The exception to that was 2015.

Would you take the "disruptive DL any day" versus a championship caliber O-line such as these recent national champion offenses???

2006 Florida vs. Ohio State

Including this just slaughters the entire conversation. Derrick Harvey and Jarvis Moss ate OSU alive.

This was the emergence of the "SEC Speed" hyperbole because of how badly their rush ends toasted OSU's mentally and physically soft OTs (and QB).

2008 Florida vs. Oklahoma

That was a defensive slugfest despite featuring two heisman winning QBs and a host of offensive weapons.

2012 Alabama vs. Notre Dame

I like how you toss this in as though there were finite ways in which Notre Dame was outclassed. OSU's good but hardly great 2012 team would have beaten them too. They were a nice story but hardly a strong team overall.

2014 Ohio State vs. Alabama

Yeah, 5'10" 270 lb Jacoby Boren is just unstoppable. As was former DL Darryl Baldwin who bounced out of the NFL quickly. OSU stole Alabama's manhood because they were hungrier, not because they had an amazing OL.

Now perimeter blocking and toughness? That's another story. Landon Collins still has not found his manhood again, and Evan Spencer detonated two ILBs on the biggest block in OSU history.

2015 Alabama vs. Clemson

Clemson lost that game because they flat out refuse to ever cover the TE. They didn't against OSU and they have no idea who OJ Howard is, and it made a very mediocre QB in Coker have the game of his life.

2016 Clemson vs. Alabama

Like the year before (which they should have won), Clemson was awful on the ground, with 18 att for 46 yds (2.6 ypc) for Gallman and 21 att 43 yds (2.0 ypc) for Watson.

DeShaun got blasted all game, taking 4 sacks and countless big hits. Bama players praised him after the game for never getting rattled in the face of that torrential pressure, and he threw his way to victory.

 

[RCSooner1974]

Defense, not Offense, wins football games.

Well Cam Newton helped lead Auburn to a national title one year, and their defense was dogshit.

 

[jwinslow]

Why more valid late in the season if not in September? And besides, OU's offense is already gelled with the exception of reloading at the skill positions to replace Perine, Mixon, and Westbrook.

Then they aren't gelled at all. The new guys might be great (much like OSU's new guys and coordinators) but nothing about them is proven.

Like OSU's secondary with their greatest DB haul ever (arguably at any school). Potential only goes so far and it certainly does not firmly gel before its tested.

And I would beg to differ about your prediction that Mayfield won't outrun and outplay your defense. The Buckeyes defense will be very good, but Mayfield went up against a strong SEC front seven in the Sugar Bowl and was able to scramble away from a few sacks from guys like Carl Lawson and Montravius Adams on the Auburn defense.

That was an excellent performance.

You might say it's not saying much when comparing the Auburn D to the Ohio State D, but I would bet Mayfield will become much more elusive in the pocket now that he's a senior QB.

Wait, why? He's been a starter since 2013.

I think the question is why will it be different this year? The coverage certainly could be, though the question marks abound for both sides. The defensive front for OSU is virtually identical. They lost McMillan but also get back one of their LB starters from a season long injury last year, he was replaced by Jerome Baker who did ok against OU .

 

[jwinslow]

Well Cam Newton helped lead Auburn to a national title one year, and their defense was dog[Mark May].

He led them to it (as a superstar) but their DL won it, which held LaMichael James to 3.8 ypc Barner to 2.9 and thomas to -0.8.

https://www.si.com/vault/2011/01/17/106025410/national-championship-auburn-22-oregon-19

Tigers defensive tackle Nick Fairley picked a good night to turn in the performance of his career. The team's usual hero, quarterback Cam Newton, was surprisingly ordinary, mortal, unCamlike in Auburn's heartstopping (and surprisingly low-scoring) 22--19 win over Oregon in Monday's BCS title game. The Heisman winner made any number of nice plays, but the freakish talent who rushed for 108.4 yards per game in 2010 was limited to 64 yards on 22 carries. He missed open receivers, and—shockingly—coughed up a fumble with less than five minutes remaining that nearly cost the Tigers the championship.

Fairley went #13 in the draft after that performance.

They were very leaky overall, but you don't have to be great defensively to beat Oregon. You have to take their manhood upfront (which isn't especially difficult). To Oregon's credit, their defense showed up yet again in a big game while their offense did not.

 

[jwinslow]

Defense, not Offense, wins football games. Things become cliche for a reason.

This is from 2012 and thru 2011

Adding the 5 years since the article:

2012 Alabama was 12th in Offense, 1 in Defense
2013 Florida State was 1 on O and 2 on D
2014 Ohio State was 5 on and 26 on D
2015 Alabama was 30th on O and 2nd on D
2016 Clemson was 14th on O and 10th on D

Not sure what Joe Gibbs would say about that.

Defense has traditionally won games. More recently you must also have a very good offense (unless you're given seventy chances by ESPN and the rest of the country isn't allowed to participate in the NCG).

 

[RCSooner1974]

Including this just slaughters the entire conversation. Derrick Harvey and Jarvis Moss ate OSU alive.

This was the emergence of the "SEC Speed" hyperbole because of how badly their rush ends toasted OSU's mentally and physically soft OTs (and QB).

The point I was trying to make was not how dominant Florida's D-line was, my argument was their O-line was also a contributing factor to their win. A well coached line by Florida was able to overpower an Ohio State defense that had Quinn Pitcock and Vernon Gholston to pave ways Tim Tebow and Percy Harvin to score touchdowns.

That was a defensive slugfest despite featuring two heisman winning QBs and a host of offensive weapons.

Also a game in which Florida significantly outrushed us when Tebow and Harvin both went over 100 yards each. Florida's O-line had the Pouncey brothers along the interior and were able to pave ways against our D-line which had Gerald McCoy and Jeremy Beal.

I like how you toss this in as though there were finite ways in which Notre Dame was outclassed. OSU's good but hardly great 2012 team would have beaten them too. They were a nice story but hardly a strong team overall.

Notre Dame ranked 11th in run defense, 2nd in scoring, and 7th in total defense, yet Alabama's dominant O-line paved the way for T.J. Yeldon and Eddie Lacy.

Yeah, 5'10" 270 lb Jacoby Boren is just unstoppable. As was former DL Darryl Baldwin who bounced out of the NFL quickly. OSU stole Alabama's manhood because they were hungrier, not because they had an amazing OL.

Now perimeter blocking and toughness? That's another story. Landon Collins still has not found his manhood again, and Evan Spencer detonated two ILBs on the biggest block in OSU history.

What about Zeke Elliott's 230 yards (on 11.5 yards per carry) versus the best defensive front seven in football??? It's no fluke he made a name for himself based off this game alone.

Clemson lost that game because they flat out refuse to ever cover the TE. They didn't against OSU and they have no idea who OJ Howard is, and it made a very mediocre QB in Coker have the game of his life.
Like the year before (which they should have won), Clemson was awful on the ground, with 18 att for 46 yds (2.6 ypc) for Gallman and 21 att 43 yds (2.0 ypc) for Watson.

DeShaun got blasted all game, taking 4 sacks and countless big hits. Bama players praised him after the game for never getting rattled in the face of that torrential pressure, and he threw his way to victory.

A very well put description, but 2015 Clemson featured Shaq Lawson and Kevin Dodd on a very aggressively coached Tiger defense by Brent Venables and 2016 Alabama had the strongest set of linebackers and an NFL-sized three man front with Jonathan Allen, Deshawn Hand and Dalvin Tomlinson. I'd say the O-line was also a contributing factor both games for the winning team.

An O-line helps an elite QB maintain his elite status, there's no exception to that rule. I'm glad you brought up how 2008 Oklahoma had a Heisman QB, but keep in mind 2008 Oklahoma had one of the strongest lines in recent memory even though they were runner-up in the national championship game. With Trent Williams and Phil Loadholt at the bookends, and Jon Cooper and Duke Robinson dominating the interior, it's no wonder Sam had the year he had in 2008.

 

[RCSooner1974]

He led them to it (as a superstar) but their DL won it, which held LaMichael James to 3.8 ypc Barner to 2.9 and thomas to -0.8.

https://www.si.com/vault/2011/01/17/106025410/national-championship-auburn-22-oregon-19

Fairley went #13 in the draft after that performance.

They were very leaky overall, but you don't have to be great defensively to beat Oregon. You have to take their manhood upfront (which isn't especially difficult). To Oregon's credit, their defense showed up yet again in a big game while their offense did not.

Yeah, but Oregon was also vastly overrated being from the pansy Pac-12. You slaughtered them in 2014.

"Traditionally", yes. Defense wins championships. However, the era we live in has been dominated with high-scoring offenses and shootouts. We live in an era of college football where teams have to be the football version of the Golden State Warriors to win games.

 

[jwinslow]

The point I was trying to make was not how dominant Florida's D-line was, my argument was their O-line was also a contributing factor to their win. A well coached line by Florida was able to overpower an Ohio State defense that had Quinn Pitcock and Vernon Gholston to pave ways Tim Tebow and Percy Harvin to score touchdowns.

I understand you don't wish for that to be the takeaway, but it was by far the biggest factor in the game.

UF didn't actually have that much success on O, but they were methodical and not moving backwards on every snap like OSU when they passed. Pittman actually outrushed all 3 UF ballcarriers but it hardly matters when any pass play is a sack.

Also a game in which Florida significantly outrushed us when Tebow and Harvin both when over 100 yards each. Florida's O-line had the Pouncey brothers along the interior and were able to pave ways against our D-line which had Gerald McCoy and Jeremy Beal.

I would agree that their OL certainly helped in the run game, but Tebow still faced a lot of pressure from your front and made him look very average for large stretches, meanwhile Bradford looked even worse because he didn't have Tebow's (or Harvin's) wildcat attributes to fall back upon in a streetfight.

It was still a defensive slugfest where both heisman QBs struggled because of the DL.

Notre Dame ranked 11th in run defense, 2nd in scoring, and 7th in total defense, yet Alabama's dominant O-line paved the way for T.J. Yeldon and Eddie Lacy.

Notre Dame was wildly outclassed. Alabama absolutely humiliated them with their O, but then they did everything. I also admitted that it was different than the others in that list.

What about Zeke Elliott's 230 yards (on 11.5 yards per carry) versus the best defensive front seven in football??? It's no fluke he made a name for himself based off this game alone.

It was a great offensive performance. It also helped that OSU was facing a very stout DL instead of an ultra quick one, so Cardale was able to run wild on them. Also, Trey DePriest was wildly overrated all year and got abused all game.

Like the year before (which they should have won), Clemson was awful on the ground, with 18 att for 46 yds (2.6 ypc) for Gallman and 21 att 43 yds (2.0 ypc) for Watson.

DeShaun got blasted all game, taking 4 sacks and countless big hits. Bama players praised him after the game for never getting rattled in the face of that torrential pressure, and he threw his way to victory.

A very well put description, but 2015 Clemson featured Shaq Lawson and Kevin Dodd on a very aggressively coached Tiger defense by Brent Venables and 2016 Alabama had the strongest set of linebackers and an NFL-sized three man front with Jonathan Allen, Deshawn Hand and Dalvin Tomlinson. I'd say the O-line was also a contributing factor both games for the winning team.

I think Clemson Bama is definitely the exception to the rule of the past decade.

An O-line helps an elite QB maintain his elite status, there's no exception to that rule. I'm glad you brought up how 2008 Oklahoma had a Heisman QB, but keep in mind 2008 Oklahoma had one of the strongest lines in recent memory even though they were runner-up in the national championship game. With Trent Williams and Phil Loadholt at the bookends, and Jon Cooper and Duke Robinson dominating the interior, it's no wonder Sam had the year he had in 2008.

That OU team was really good and had a very strong line.

They scored 14 points because they were facing Carlos Dunlap, Brandon Spikes and a lethal UF D. They remained in that game because McCoy and co made life difficult on Tebow.

These teams totaled an average of 99 points per game, but wound up with a scoreless first quarter. In the second quarter, Florida's defense made a pair of goal line stands that left it 7-all at halftime.

This quote was similar to the Auburn-Oregon game

Florida's defense, rather than Tebow, Harvin and its speedsters on the other side of the ball, kept the Gators close.

 

[jwinslow]

Yeah, but Oregon was also vastly overrated being from the pansy Pac-12. You slaughtered them in 2014.

You're not going to get any arguments from us about Oregon's perception in the media

Their high paced offense had OSU on their heels for a drive or two, then talent and strength set in.

 

[RCSooner1974]

I would agree that their OL certainly helped in the run game, but Tebow still faced a lot of pressure from your front and made him look very average for large stretches, meanwhile Bradford looked even worse because he didn't have Tebow's (or Harvin's) wildcat attributes to fall back upon in a streetfight.

That OU team was really good and had a very strong line.

They scored 14 points because they were facing Carlos Dunlap, Brandon Spikes and a lethal UF D. They remained in that game because McCoy and co made life difficult on Tebow.

This quote was similar to the Auburn-Oregon game

Well it certainly did not help with DeMarco Murray being absent. Our O-line would probably have had a better looking performance in that game if the 2014 NFL Offensive Player of the Year didn't get injured on the opening kickoff versus Mizzou in the Big XII CG.

Add to it, Wilson just went flat-out retarded on going for it on 4th and goal (instead of kicking the field goal) in the second quarter when we would have had a three point lead going into half time. And our kicker Jimmy Stevens did his usual sucking on field goals in that game missing a key one that would have kept the game within a touchdown late in the fourth quarter before Florida went up for good.

 

[bukIpower]

That Would have been Stoops' call not Wilson's.

For OU to win they need to outrush OSU and with that said I'm just not sure how you do that when that wasn't achieved last year with the talent OU had at the running back position.

It will benefit OSU that OU is moving to a 4-3 too. We typically struggle against 3 man fronts but excel with a standard 4 man front.

I think it's safe to say that OU will probably do slightly worse then last year's rushing stats due to losing two great backs and playing a veteran front. OSU meanwhile by and large returns their skill so its reasonable to assume they'll go for over 230 yards rushing (being kind considering we put up 300 last year).

Only way I see OU winning is if OSU has a few bad turnovers early and it forces OSU to abandon the run game. If OSU can keep pounding the ball throughout the game the odds just aren't great for OU.

 

[Bill Lucas]

"Traditionally", yes. Defense wins championships. However, the era we live in has been dominated with high-scoring offenses and shootouts

By era if you mean the Big 12 then I completely agree with you.

 

[sparcboxbuck]

Why more valid late in the season if not in September? And besides, OU's offense is already gelled with the exception of reloading at the skill positions to replace Perine, Mixon, and Westbrook.

And I would beg to differ about your prediction that Mayfield won't outrun and outplay your defense. The Buckeyes defense will be very good, but Mayfield went up against a strong SEC front seven in the Sugar Bowl and was able to scramble away from a few sacks from guys like Carl Lawson and Montravius Adams on the Auburn defense. You might say it's not saying much when comparing the Auburn D to the Ohio State D, but I would bet Mayfield will become much more elusive in the pocket now that he's a senior QB.

C'mon man... He couldn't outrun a bunch of Arkansas donut-eaters, he ain't outrunning our LBs.

The question is if he cries like a little girl when he goes down.