OFFICIAL: Biblical/Theology Discussion thread

[DubCoffman62]

Scopes was in on it, and actively wanted to be the test case on Darwin. Which is all to say, he is not quite the "victim" Inherit the Wind portrayed.

<insert Jake comment in 3.....2.....1 :p)

Best scene from that movie
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEgo6OxqE-Q&feature=related"]Inherit The Wind - Golden Dancer - YouTube[/ame]

 

[kinch]

Okay, this is going to sound really stupid, but it is the only thing that has given me reason to believe in some higher power.

I had two crushes, big ones, in high school. I suppose I must have had something for my girlfriends too, but these were much greater. I got very close to dating each of them, but failed. I also had one friend that, for some reason, I wanted the approval of. She ended up not talking to me.

I met both of my crushes later in life, in totally random circumstances, away from Ohio. Dated them both (one was Cortesana, ha). I also ran into that friend in Boston, and again in NYC on the F train. We are now friends.

This is all too weird and unlikely. I haven't run into anyone else from my large high school.

I should say more. . . This isn't a "looking backward" thing. I remember at Ohio State talking to this hippie guy about these three. He urged me to pursue them. These were THE THREE so to speak. My school had 2700 kids. . . I haven't run into anyone else.

Obviously there is a lot more background to this (especially the friend one).

Weird.

 

[MaxBuck]

Okay, this is going to sound really stupid, but it is the only thing that has given me reason to believe in some higher power.

I had two crushes, big ones, in high school. I suppose I must have had something for my girlfriends too, but these were much greater. I got very close to dating each of them, but failed. I also had one friend that, for some reason, I wanted the approval of. She ended up not talking to me.

I met both of my crushes later in life, in totally random circumstances, away from Ohio. Dated them both (one was Cortesana, ha). I also ran into that friend in Boston, and again in NYC on the F train. We are now friends.

This is all too weird and unlikely. I haven't run into anyone else from my large high school.

I should say more. . . This isn't a "looking backward" thing. I remember at Ohio State talking to this hippie guy about these three. He urged me to pursue them. These were THE THREE so to speak. My school had 2700 kids. . . I haven't run into anyone else.

Obviously there is a lot more background to this (especially the friend one).

Weird.

Tequila tonight?

 

[Gatorubet]

Okay, this is going to sound really stupid, but it is the only thing that has given me reason to believe in some higher power.

I had two crushes, big ones, in high school. I suppose I must have had something for my girlfriends too, but these were much greater. I got very close to dating each of them, but failed. I also had one friend that, for some reason, I wanted the approval of. She ended up not talking to me.

I met both of my crushes later in life, in totally random circumstances, away from Ohio. Dated them both (one was Cortesana, ha). I also ran into that friend in Boston, and again in NYC on the F train. We are now friends.

This is all too weird and unlikely. I haven't run into anyone else from my large high school.

I should say more. . . This isn't a "looking backward" thing. I remember at Ohio State talking to this hippie guy about these three. He urged me to pursue them. These were THE THREE so to speak. My school had 2700 kids. . . I haven't run into anyone else.

Obviously there is a lot more background to this (especially the friend one).

Weird.

I'd look for Treadstone.

 

[Jake]

Okay, this is going to sound really stupid, but it is the only thing that has given me reason to believe in some higher power.

I had two crushes, big ones, in high school. I suppose I must have had something for my girlfriends too, but these were much greater. I got very close to dating each of them, but failed. I also had one friend that, for some reason, I wanted the approval of. She ended up not talking to me.

I met both of my crushes later in life, in totally random circumstances, away from Ohio. Dated them both (one was Cortesana, ha). I also ran into that friend in Boston, and again in NYC on the F train. We are now friends.

This is all too weird and unlikely. I haven't run into anyone else from my large high school.

I should say more. . . This isn't a "looking backward" thing. I remember at Ohio State talking to this hippie guy about these three. He urged me to pursue them. These were THE THREE so to speak. My school had 2700 kids. . . I haven't run into anyone else.

Obviously there is a lot more background to this (especially the friend one).

Weird.

Clearly, this is proof that an omniscient, omnipotent, supernatural being is out there *somewhere* watching billions of people and going "you know, kinch is a good guy, and he really wanted to get in the pants of a couple girls from his high school in Podunk USA, so I think I will make sure he gets his chance down the road, even though I know there are all sorts of calamities in the world and I have the power to fix them, I'm going to do this instead".

Jesus H. Christ, people put forth nonsense like this to support their faith then wonder why people like me think they are out of their fucking minds. You were right in your first sentence, kinch. Pity you didn't just stop there.

But thanks for teeing one up for me.

 

[Jake]

Speaking of omniscient and omnipotent, let's take a closer look.

om-nis-cient   [om-nish-uhnt]
adjective
1.
having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

If God is omniscient, he is aware of all things. He was aware of Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot and every other mass murderer who ever came to power in the world, before they came to power and slaughtered millions of people. And yet, he couldn't stop it. Or could he?

om-nip-o-tent   [om-nip-uh-tuhnt]
adjective
1.
almighty or infinite in power, as God.
2.
having very great or unlimited authority or power.

If God is omnipotent, he could've stopped all of those atrocities, and every other one as well. And yet, he didn't do it. Why not? Because it was not "God's will", of course. Which begs another question: if God is going to do his will anyway, what the fuck is the point of prayer?

To summarize, if God is omniscient he either doesn't give a shit or he's not omnipotent. If he's not omnipotent, what good is he? And if he's going to do "his will", then there is no point in praying to him, much less worshipping him.

Then again, God could just be a figment of man's imagination. That would explain the lack of omniscience and omnipotence, but it would - oh no - force us to accept our own mortality. No magical heaven, no eternal life, no seeing our loved ones again. Yeah, it sucks, but self delusion doesn't make it any more real.

 

[Gatorubet]

Clearly, this is proof that an omniscient, omnipotent, supernatural being is out there *somewhere* watching billions of people and going "you know, kinch is a good guy, and he really wanted to get in the pants of a couple girls from his high school in Podunk USA, so I think I will make sure he gets his chance down the road, even though I know there are all sorts of calamities in the world and I have the power to fix them, I'm going to do this instead".

Jesus H. Christ, people put forth nonsense like this to support their faith then wonder why people like me think they are out of their [censored]ing minds. You were right in your first sentence, kinch. Pity you didn't just stop there.

But thanks for teeing one up for me.

Jake, have you ever wondered what would happen if you cut a douche bag into a long skinny rectangle and turned it into a mobius strip?

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Speaking of omniscient and omnipotent, let's take a closer look.

om-nis-cient   [om-nish-uhnt]
adjective
1.
having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

If God is omniscient, he is aware of all things. He was aware of Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot and every other mass murderer who ever came to power in the world, before they came to power and slaughtered millions of people. And yet, he couldn't stop it. Or could he?

You assume G-d would want to stop any of these things. I don't see why he would.

om-nip-o-tent   [om-nip-uh-tuhnt]
adjective
1.
almighty or infinite in power, as God.
2.
having very great or unlimited authority or power.

If God is omnipotent, he could've stopped all of those atrocities, and every other one as well. And yet, he didn't do it. Why not? Because it was not "God's will", of course. Which begs another question: if God is going to do his will anyway, what the fuck is the point of prayer?

What's so atrocious about all those people you named? They slaughtered people? Is that it? See, Jake, the problem with people like you arguing about the problems with G-d is you think death means something. So.. when people get slaughtered, you see it as "evil" which G-d allowed. But, that's only because death is final for you. And ... maybe it is for all of us. But, there's no particular evil in killing just in and of itself.

And besides, a more perfect reality, such as the one we live in, would consist of "good" and "bad" so that we could enjoy learning. If we all knew everything and lived in a perfect world that would suck some serious ass. Nothing to learn. Nothing to do. No surprises. So, I guess what I'm saying, Jake... if you're looking for perfection open your damn eyes and look around. It's already here. Perfect perfection - a world without "evil" or pain or whatever would be stale and boring. As useless as you think praying is.

To summarize, if God is omniscient he either doesn't give a shit or he's not omnipotent. If he's not omnipotent, what good is he? And if he's going to do "his will", then there is no point in praying to him, much less worshipping him.

G-d may or may not give a shit. Hard for me to say. But, lets pretend he does give a shit. Let's pretend he is omnipotent. What else could an all powerful G-d do? Oh.. I don't know... make a ... lets say... an infinite number of other universes, maybe? See, that way.. I can and DO do everything ... I make every choice.
I always find it pretty amusing when some hot shot atheist marches into a thread like this says "you're G-d isn't all powerful" and then objects to the thought of infinite universes. So, before you do, I'd request you explain to me how an All Powerful G-d couldn't create an infinite number of universes.

Then again, God could just be a figment of man's imagination. That would explain the lack of omniscience and omnipotence, but it would - oh no - force us to accept our own mortality. No magical heaven, no eternal life, no seeing our loved ones again. Yeah, it sucks, but self delusion doesn't make it any more real.

You could be right. I sure don't know. But, in limiting what an all powerful being could do I don't think you're making much of an argument here.

So - to summarize:

You assume there is some reason to not have Hitler's and Mao's etc. I have no idea why you assume this. I think you think the reason is self evident. They're bad men doing bad things. Sure... so what? What the hell does that have to do with a desire to "stop" them from doing anything... especially from G-d's perspective. In short - without both "good" and "evil" there would be no point in life. Nothing to do, no one to love, no one to teach you a damn thing, nothing. Perfection, it would seem, has its down side.

If G-d is Omniscient and he is Omnipotent... well... he maybe did some things beyond Jake's ability to understand, no? Or... are you G-d Jake? If you could create an infinite number of universes, would you?

Overall score:
Weak sauce, Jake. C+

 

[Jake]

You assume G-d would want to stop any of these things. I don't see why he would.

What's so atrocious about all those people you named? They slaughtered people? Is that it? See, Jake, the problem with people like you arguing about the problems with G-d is you think death means something.

The problem with people like you, not to mention people who fly jets into skyscrapers, is that you think death is the gateway to some mystical, magical world. You dismiss one life for which we have evidence as some minor inconvenience to be overcome to get to the greater prize.

So.. when people get slaughtered, you see it as "evil" which G-d allowed. But, that's only because death is final for you. And ... maybe it is for all of us. But, there's no particular evil in killing just in and of itself.

So you won't mind if someone stops by and murders your family.

And besides, a more perfect reality, such as the one we live in, would consist of "good" and "bad" so that we could enjoy learning. If we all knew everything and lived in a perfect world that would suck some serious ass. Nothing to learn. Nothing to do. No surprises. So, I guess what I'm saying, Jake... if you're looking for perfection open your damn eyes and look around. It's already here. Perfect perfection - a world without "evil" or pain or whatever would be stale and boring. As useless as you think praying is.

I'm not looking for perfection. I'm looking for evidence that God (oh no, I typed his name!) is what billions claim - an omnipotent, omnipresent force who created the world and everything in it. If the evidence does not support those definitions, nothing else you say about God has meaning. No one expects this world to be perfect, but if you want people to acknlowledge your God the arguments for his existence should at least be consistent.

G-d may or may not give a shit. Hard for me to say. But, lets pretend he does give a shit. Let's pretend he is omnipotent. What else could an all powerful G-d do? Oh.. I don't know... make a ... lets say... an infinite number of other universes, maybe? See, that way.. I can and DO do everything ... I make every choice.
I always find it pretty amusing when some hot shot atheist marches into a thread like this says "you're G-d isn't all powerful" and then objects to the thought of infinite universes. So, before you do, I'd request you explain to me how an All Powerful G-d couldn't create an infinite number of universes.

An all powerful God could do whatever he wanted, including create an infinite number of universes, if gods actually existed. That is pretty much inherent in the definition of the word god.

You could be right. I sure don't know. But, in limiting what an all powerful being could do I don't think you're making much of an argument here.

I'm not the one placing limits on him, so your argument makes no sense. I'm merely pointing out that the powers he is given credit for possessing are not supported by the evidence before us. This is hardly surprising given there is no evidence for his existence in the first place.

So - to summarize:

You assume there is some reason to not have Hitler's and Mao's etc. I have no idea why you assume this. I think you think the reason is self evident. They're bad men doing bad things. Sure... so what? What the hell does that have to do with a desire to "stop" them from doing anything... especially from G-d's perspective. In short - without both "good" and "evil" there would be no point in life. Nothing to do, no one to love, no one to teach you a damn thing, nothing. Perfection, it would seem, has its down side.

If G-d is Omniscient and he is Omnipotent... well... he maybe did some things beyond Jake's ability to understand, no? Or... are you G-d Jake? If you could create an infinite number of universes, would you?

Overall score:
Weak sauce, Jake. C+

I'll make a note of it.

Perhaps next time you'll stop making straw men arguments on my behalf and offer a coherent rebuttal to what I actually said. Given how you are emotionally invested in a particular outcome I suspect that is going to be next to impossible for you.

Good luck.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

The problem with people like you, not to mention people who fly jets into skyscrapers, is that you think death is the gateway to some mystical, magical world. You dismiss one life for which we have evidence as some minor inconvenience to be overcome to get to the greater prize.

I see. I am sorry that my belief in a soul and an afterlife hurts you as bad as it does, Jake. As for your assertion that I dismiss one life as a minor inconvenience, I will just tell you that you're assuming too much.

So you won't mind if someone stops by and murders your family.

Umm... no. I certainly will mind that. I won't blame G-d for it. I will look at it as something I will have to learn from and overcome. Of course, this is merely evidence that I'm not dismissing life as some kind of minor inconvenience to overcome. It's up to you to make the connection.

I'm not looking for perfection. I'm looking for evidence that God (oh no, I typed his name!) is what billions claim - an omnipotent, omnipresent force who created the world and everything in it. If the evidence does not support those definitions, nothing else you say about God has meaning. No one expects this world to be perfect, but if you want people to acknlowledge your God the arguments for his existence should at least be consistent.

Jake, it's not my fault that you can't comprehend that your working under the faulty premise that whatever we have in this universe isn't "perfect" It's really not too hard to understand how G-d can be both omnipotent and omniscient. Or even omnipresent as you now include. It's really rather easy, actually. But.. it can be very hard to do if you insist on limiting what an allegedly all powerful G-d can do. That's not my problem, though, Jake. That one is squarely on you.

An all powerful God could do whatever he wanted, including create an infinite number of universes, if gods actually existed. That is pretty much inherent in the definition of the word god.

A lot of very bright people seem to think there are multiple universes. They even have some high level math supporting their contentions. I don't know, I'm pretty moronic when it comes to calculations... it's hard enough for me to help my son with 4th grade math... But...
Here's a link to get you started LINK

Of course, there's no requirement you believe science or math or whatever. Indeed, considering your position on global warming, I am reasonably sure you'll find some way to convince yourself that it's "the man" pulling one over on you.

I'm not the one placing limits on him, so your argument makes no sense. I'm merely pointing out that the powers he is given credit for possessing are not supported by the evidence before us. This is hardly surprising given there is no evidence for his existence in the first place.

You refusing to contemplate the consequences of infinite universes is not "merely pointing out" the lack of evidence. As for whether or not there is any evidence for his existence, one might say that the very fact that there is anything at all is evidence. It begs the question, I suppose. But... It's no less satisfying an answer than "Our universe was created out of nothing"

Hell, Jake, both the Book and Genesis and Science have arrived at the same answer.. creation from nothing. Now, I agree with you that the authors of the Bible weren't particularly good at counting or measuring and stuff like that. I even agree with you that much of the Bible has been interpreted in ways which are selfish and self serving (ie I don't like gay marriage, so I'll find some bible passage which shows G-d doesn't like it either).

In as much as you're arguing against the god in the bible.. actually... you and I agree. That particular picture of G-d makes little sense to me.

But... that's not what I'm talking about.

I'll make a note of it.

Perhaps next time you'll stop making straw men arguments on my behalf and offer a coherent rebuttal to what I actually said. Given how you are emotionally invested in a particular outcome I suspect that is going to be next to impossible for you.

You really do have quite a high opinion of yourself.

I'll go ahead and worry about what I'm emotionally invested in, thanks. I do appreciate your concern though. Truly. It's nice to know you've got my back and all. I know it must do extensive damage to you to see me and others deluding ourselves with our own thoughts. So, thanks for your strength in enduring me continuing down this horrible path of error.

 

[Gatorubet]

Perhaps next time you'll stop making straw men arguments on my behalf and offer a coherent rebuttal to what I actually said. Given how you are emotionally invested in a particular outcome I suspect that is going to be next to impossible for you.

Good luck.

I think that any impartial observer to this thread - and others - would conclude that you have a far greater emotional investment in disproving all aspects of religious thought than do most posters who answer your posts.

The bulk of your offerings are akin to

[Jake] "You think make believe magic sky people control your life????!! Stupid mooks [/jake]

Which is to say, your use of strawmen is such a universal component in your posts that it - matched with your emotional response - makes this last paragraph chuckle inducing.

 

[kinch]

This discussion seems very close to the refutation of god by, I think, Kant. I am going off memory here. . .

If god is omnipotent, omniscient, and purely benevolent, then there would be no suffering. Therefore he/she must not exist as stated. It went something like that, anyway.

Edit: to clarify, it was really a simple argument. Being omniscient, god would know of all suffering, being benevolent, he would prevent it with his omnipotent powers. Any suffering would require that he either didn't know of it, didn't care, or couldn't do anything about it.

The common argument from the Christian theologians was that we needed to suffer to understand. . . whatever. The obvious counter argument was that if god was omnipotent he could make us understand without the suffering.

 

[buckeyegrad]

This discussion seems very close to the refutation of god by, I think, Kant. I am going off memory here. . .

If god is omnipotent, omniscient, and purely benevolent, then there would be no suffering. Therefore he/she must not exist as stated. It went something like that, anyway.

That sounds more like John Stuart Mill to me; but then, I'm not familiar with Kant in that area, so maybe both were making the same argument.

 

[kinch]

That sounds more like John Stuart Mill to me; but then, I'm not familiar with Kant in that area, so maybe both were making the same argument.

I actually think we both may have guessed wrongly. I know Mill pretty well and don't think it is him. He was more of an ethics guy. Kant was religious though right? You're probably closer.

Damn it. I'll google it and edit this post with the answer.

Edit: It originated from Epicurus.

And Kant was the guy that argued that this was a reason for faith, that only faith could explain the true nature of things, and we weren't meant to know.

 

[MaxBuck]

The problem with people like you

nfm