OFFICIAL: Biblical/Theology Discussion thread

[Gatorubet]

Despite what other denominations may say the Bible is clear:

That sums up two thousand years of diverse theology.

 

[MaxBuck]

...Despite what other denominations may say the Bible is clear: you are saved by Grace through faith in Jesus Christ, the one and only God who died for your sins and rose again. ...

I happen to agree with this theological viewpoint, but who are we humans on earth to judge the "savedness" of others? "Judgment is mine," sayeth the Lord. Sounds pretty unequivocal to me. One of the most serious problems I have with the "fundamentalist" Christian movement is that many of its adherents seem to take upon themselves the mantle of Judge that God has made clear belongs only to Him.

 

[Gatorubet]

One of the most serious problems I have with the "fundamentalist" Christian movement is that many of its adherents seem to take upon themselves the mantle of Judge that God has made clear belongs only to Him.

That is well stated, and a view that I share. The judgmental intolerance of some self professed Christians is viewed by many non-believers as rank hypocricy, and a reason for ignoring any further consideration of the supposed underlying message of those Christians.

 

[stowfan]

That is well stated, and a view that I share. The judgmental intolerance of some self professed Christians is viewed by many non-believers as rank hypocricy, and a reason for ignoring any further consideration of the supposed underlying message of those Christians.

I have to agree, judgement on one's salvation is God's and His only. IMHO
one is getting themselves deep in first commandment problems when they start trying to play God. Again imho, the only place for judgeing the conduct of others it is inside the 4 walls of of your own church.

 

[buckeyegrad]

I happen to agree with this theological viewpoint, but who are we humans on earth to judge the "savedness" of others? "Judgment is mine," sayeth the Lord. Sounds pretty unequivocal to me. One of the most serious problems I have with the "fundamentalist" Christian movement is that many of its adherents seem to take upon themselves the mantle of Judge that God has made clear belongs only to Him.

The whole issue of judgment (Who can do it? When is it appropriate? What is it exactly? Is there a difference between external and internal judgment?) is too complicated to take the time pick your statements (and others') apart. However, I would be interested in hearing how you reconcile what you state here verses Jesus' comment to the gathered 10: "If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven (John 20:23).

Again, I'm not trying to start a debate over Christian judgment, but rather asking how you reconcile this particular verse as it think it highlights that the issue is a lot more complicated than either side (i.e. your position and the position you are criticizing) often recognize in their statements.

 

[MaxBuck]

The whole issue of judgment (Who can do it? When is it appropriate? What is it exactly? Is there a difference between external and internal judgment?) is too complicated to take the time pick your statements (and others') apart. However, I would be interested in hearing how you reconcile what you state here verses Jesus' comment to the gathered 10: "If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven (John 20:23).

Again, I'm not trying to start a debate over Christian judgment, but rather asking how you reconcile this particular verse as it think it highlights that the issue is a lot more complicated than either side (i.e. your position and the position you are criticizing) often recognize in their statements.

A good question, grad. My own view is that Jesus often said things to His disciples that were intended for their own use rather than for our modern use. But I recognize that there are other points of view. However, there are plenty of other things that Jesus said, especially to the Saducees and Pharisees (whom I see as the philosophical precursors to so many modern Christian "fundamentalists") that make it clear that our task here on earth is to love, not to judge. And for all that Pat Robertson and his ilk may claim that their scathing attacks on gays, liberals, abortion docs, etc. are born out of love, it just rings false to me. Sounds more like hate. (And yes, I know, that is a judgmental thing to say -- what can I say? I'm a hypocrite!)

The other element of all this is, of course, that judgment of the act is quite different from judgment of the individual. It's common for us all to look down our noses at (for example) pedophiles; it's quite necessary to judge their actions harshly, but unless we know the factors that go into what makes one a pedophile (genetics, upbringing, etc.), how can we place ourselves in a position of moral superiority to them? I'm just damn glad that is not a sin that I need to concern my own self with; I've got plenty of other (less taboo) ones that I need to deal with.

 

[muffler dragon]

Isaiah 53: Who is the Suffering Servant?

During the time I took for compiling data and resources to present a relatively comprehensive verse-by-verse breakdown of Isaiah 53, I was informed of an essay written by an acquaintance of mine. Uri Yosef has written the following 46-page essay:

Welcome to Jewish Learning on the Net at VirtualYeshiva.com

Yes, this comes from messiahtruth.com. Yes, messiahtruth is an antimissionary website. If that turns you off; then that's fine. From a scholarly, linguistic, and detailed point of view, this is a very well done in my estimation. I don't know of any rocks that Uri left unturned.

If you would like to discuss points that Uri makes; then feel free to voice them. If I don't know the answer; then I will ask him directly.

I ask that if you do have a desire in reading this that you pay particular attention to the variance in translations between KJV and the translation from the Hebrew. In many cases, this will make every thing quite clear.

My last statement is regarding "context". Uri speaks of the context of the term "servant". This is not something to lightly dismiss as one must remember that there are no chapters nor verses in the original Hebrew.

Anyway... I hope that this essay brings enlightenment and education.

Regards.

 

[muffler dragon]

especially to the Saducees and Pharisees (whom I see as the philosophical precursors to so many modern Christian "fundamentalists") that make it clear that our task here on earth is to love, not to judge.

Max:

I've liked what you've written regarding judgment. Very cool :thumbsup:

I apologize for the rabbit trail question, but I wanted to ask if you have ever spent much time learning about the differences between the Sadducees and Pharisees in particular (along with the Essenes and other fringe groups)? Reason that I bring it up: extra-biblical renderings of the Sadducees and Pharisees present a much different picture than the Christian testament. It's quite a fascinating study. In some ways, it illuminates considerations within the Christian testament while it contradicts in others.

 

[muffler dragon]

Christianity is ultimatley very simple and easy to follow: Thou shall have no other gods before Him. Treat your neighbor as yourself. That is Christendom's true cannon IMO.

I am not picking on Bleed when I re-post this quote. I simply thought it would be of interest for some for me to explain myself when I responded by saying that this is rather Judaic in nature (in other words - pre-dates Christianity).

The "thou shall have no other gods before Me" comes from Deuteronomy. The "love your neighbor as yourself" comes from Leviticus.

Here is a link which some may find of interest:

Judaism 101: Love and Brotherhood

Many people think of Judaism as the religion of cold, harsh laws, to be contrasted with Christianity, the religion of love and brotherhood. This is an unfair characterization of both Judaism and Jewish law. Love and kindness has been a part of Judaism from the very beginning. Pirkei Avot, a book of the Mishnah, teaches that the world is based on three things: on Torah (law), on service to G-d, and on g'milut chasadim (usually translated as "acts of lovingkindness"), perhaps drawing from Psalm 89:3, "the world is built on kindness" (more commonly translated as "forever is mercy built"). The Talmud says that g'milut chasadim is greater than tzedakah (charity), because unlike tzedakah, g'milut chasadim can be done for both poor and rich, both the living and the dead, and can be done with money or with acts. (Talmud Sukkah 49b). The Mishnah describes g'milut chasadim as one of the few things that one can enjoy the fruits in this world and the principal remains intact in the world to come.
A large part of Jewish law is about the relationship between man and his neighbors. The same body of Jewish law that commands us to eat only kosher food, not to turn on lights on Shabbat, and not to wear wool woven with linen, also commands us to love both Jews and strangers, to give tzedakah (charity) to the poor and needy, and not to wrong anyone in speech or in business. In fact, acts of lovingkindness are so much a part of Jewish law that the word "mitzvah" (literally, "commandment") is informally used to mean any good deed.
The Talmud tells a story of Rabbi Hillel, who lived around the time of Jesus. A pagan came to him saying that he would convert to Judaism if Hillel could teach him the whole of the Torah in the time he could stand on one foot. Rabbi Hillel replied, "What is hateful to yourself, do not do to your fellow man. That is the whole Torah; the rest is just commentary. Go and study it." Sounds a lot like Jesus' "Golden Rule"? But this idea was a fundamental part of Judaism long before Hillel or Jesus. It is a common-sense application of the Torah commandment to love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18), which Rabbi Akiba described as the essence of the Torah. The true difference between Judaism and Christianity lies in Hillel's last comment: Go and study it. Judaism is not content to leave love and brotherhood as a general ideal, to be fulfilled as each individual sees fit. Judaism spells out, in intricate detail, how we are meant to show that love.

continued.

One of the first things that intrigued me about Judaism was the concept of "challenge your faith daily". To some, this is an inspiring statement. To others, fear or ambivalence. For today, it's just something to think about.

 

[MaxBuck]

But this idea was a fundamental part of Judaism long before Hillel or Jesus. It is a common-sense application of the Torah commandment to love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18), which Rabbi Akiba described as the essence of the Torah. The true difference between Judaism and Christianity lies in Hillel's last comment: Go and study it. Judaism is not content to leave love and brotherhood as a general ideal, to be fulfilled as each individual sees fit. Judaism spells out, in intricate detail, how we are meant to show that love.

Jesus was, after all, a Jew -- and a perfectly observant one. Therefore it is not at all surprising that His commentary is consistent with careful study of the Torah.

Jesus brought to mankind a reminder of God's commandments to us, and His summary of the Law was in my opinion the kernel of Christian faith -- love God above all else, and love one another. Most of the rest is detail. However, I disagree with the comment that the difference between Christianity and Judaism relates to the study of how best to show that love; Christianity in most of its flavors teaches that man cannot reach salvation through works, since all of us are too flawed. Our salvation relies upon acceptance that we are too flawed, and that we require one perfect Sacrifice to be made on our behalf.

It certainly remains a common element of man's worship that churches, synagogues, etc. continue to focus a great deal of attention on liturgical trivia such as (IMO) the keeping of kosher or whether or not the Trinity is one being or three. To the extent these concerns distract us from the study and practice of how best to demonstrate our love for our fellowman, we (and the world) suffer.

 

[MaxBuck]

...I wanted to ask if you have ever spent much time learning about the differences between the Sadducees and Pharisees in particular (along with the Essenes and other fringe groups)? Reason that I bring it up: extra-biblical renderings of the Sadducees and Pharisees present a much different picture than the Christian testament. It's quite a fascinating study. In some ways, it illuminates considerations within the Christian testament while it contradicts in others.

I've been taught that the Sadducees and Pharisees both get a bit of a "bad rap" in NT study. As I understand it, Jesus was directing his ire toward particular groups of these fellows who were behaving in unsound ways, rather than condemning the entire body of either Sadducees or Pharisees. I used the term only to illustrate a point, since so far as I know there aren't any modern-day Pharisees to be offended by my comments!

Study of the Essenes, the Copts, and other splinter groups of both Judaism and Christianity is interesting, but not really my cup of tea. Much as the very detailed theological discussions you and Bleed S&G were having earlier in the thread -- my theology has been formed by looking at the Bible holistically, and not putting too much study into individual verses (or words, or even sentences!). I'm not saying such study is a bad thing (quite the opposite, since the scholarship of others is essential to my own scriptural understanding), but it isn't for me.

 

[muffler dragon]

Jesus was, after all, a Jew -- and a perfectly observant one. Therefore it is not at all surprising that His commentary is consistent with careful study of the Torah.

'Tis true that many Sages have shared ideas of others throughout time. As for Jesus' observation of Torah, that's a topic for another thread. :) For now, I'll just say that perfect observance or poor observance is relatively meaningless. It's more about the intent of the heart than it is the result. With practice, the results will come.

Jesus brought to mankind a reminder of God's commandments to us, and His summary of the Law was in my opinion the kernel of Christian faith -- love God above all else, and love one another. Most of the rest is detail.

Okay.

However, I disagree with the comment that the difference between Christianity and Judaism relates to the study of how best to show that love; Christianity in most of its flavors teaches that man cannot reach salvation through works, since all of us are too flawed. Our salvation relies upon acceptance that we are too flawed, and that we require one perfect Sacrifice to be made on our behalf.

Why do you disagree with the comment when what you just stated has no place in Judaism? Personal vicarious atonement has no place in Judaism. Personal accountability and responsibility are paramount in Judaism, and IMO, definitely flavors our interactions with our fellow human beings. I understand your point IF you're saying that there is just as much love in Christianity as there is in Judaism; however, that's not the point that jewfaq was making.

It certainly remains a common element of man's worship that churches, synagogues, etc. continue to focus a great deal of attention on liturgical trivia such as (IMO) the keeping of kosher or whether or not the Trinity is one being or three. To the extent these concerns distract us from the study and practice of how best to demonstrate our love for our fellowman, we (and the world) suffer.

Well... there are two points that I can make about this statement:

1) Gentiles are not called to observe Torah; therefore, you needn't worry about the "liturgical trivia" of Judaism for yourself. However...
2) for Jews, following the Torah as it is commanded of them by G-d is by no means a trivial occurrence. The fruits of such observance are manifold throughout the Tanakh. Furthermore, there is the belief in Judaism that repetition can breed growth in the heart. Thus, even though something may not come naturally, if one practices it enough; then it becomes a part of their soul.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

However, I would be interested in hearing how you reconcile what you state here verses Jesus' comment to the gathered 10: "If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven (John 20:23).

At the risk of sounding glib.... I would reconcile it in one of two ways

1 - Jesus is the master of the obvious
and/or
2 - Jesus' followers weren't able to make even the most simple deductive conclusions.

Man who thinks he knows the Judgment of G-d has done little more than elevated himself to purport to be G-d. As I've hinted before, the whole idea that a person like myself is in need of saving is precisely this same thing. Who are you to save me? Who are you to tell me what G-d thinks of me? Why shouldn't I tell you you need to be saved? Why shouldn't I tell you what G-d expects of you?

And, seriously, if I told you that I was praying for you to see the light in the same manner I see it... wouldn't you just laugh that off as ridiculous? If I told you that I was praying for your salvation wouldn't you just say to me, "by this creature you call your G-d? No thanks."

Roger Waters said it best - "What G-d wants, G-d gets. G-d help us all."


Bgrad, I don't mean to single you out in saying this stuff. Just your post provoked my thought.

 

[stowfan]

Muffler have you ever had any exposure to Micheal Rood?
Michael Rood Ministries

 

[stowfan]

At the risk of sounding glib.... I would reconcile it in one of two ways

1 - Jesus is the master of the obvious
and/or
2 - Jesus' followers weren't able to make even the most simple deductive conclusions.

Man who thinks he knows the Judgment of G-d has done little more than elevated himself to purport to be G-d. As I've hinted before, the whole idea that a person like myself is in need of saving is precisely this same thing. Who are you to save me? Who are you to tell me what G-d thinks of me? Why shouldn't I tell you you need to be saved? Why shouldn't I tell you what G-d expects of you?

And, seriously, if I told you that I was praying for you to see the light in the same manner I see it... wouldn't you just laugh that off as ridiculous? If I told you that I was praying for your salvation wouldn't you just say to me, "by this creature you call your G-d? No thanks."

Roger Waters said it best - "What G-d wants, G-d gets. G-d help us all."


Bgrad, I don't mean to single you out in saying this stuff. Just your post provoked my thought.

I think what he was trying to say is; we should make an effect to reconcile with those who offend us. The measure of mercy we show is what we may hope to recieve from God. Only God himself can forgive sins but we can by our choice show mercy and compassion to our fellow brothers and sisters in this world.:)