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OFFICIAL: Biblical/Theology Discussion thread

Thump;947322; said:
I guess I'm really interested in the Catholic stance b/c I know they believe all suicide leads to a one way ticket down south.
Hmm, idk what the church would say. Very good question. One on hand, they were going to die either way. On the other, they rejected there cross and took the "easy" way out.. idk, i bet diffrent preist would give you diffrent answers
 
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BKB hit on the reason I would say that the 9-11 individuals' acts would not be considered suicide from God's perspective (as He has revealed it to us).

The command God gives is thou shall not murder, which is assumed to also include the murder of one's self. Now the Hebrew word for murder is ratsach, which has the specific meaning of killing as an angry reaction to stimuli or lying in wait in order to kill (as a lion does its prey). For more explanation, see:

"Thou Shalt Not Kill" -- What Does It Mean?

I don't see how the victims of 9-11, who jumped would fall into either of these categories. I think we can safely assume they did not take their lives out of anger, nor did they take their lives with the deliberate intent as that of a predator on its prey. Alternatively, the person who hangs himself in his basement would fall into one of these two categories.

What we find then, when we apply the meaning of ratsach to 9-11 is that those who jumped were murdered by the terrorists. All guilt and divine judgement rests upon them.
 
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buckeyegrad;947349; said:
BKB hit on the reason I would say that the 9-11 individuals' acts would not be considered suicide from God's perspective (as He has revealed it to us).

The command God gives is thou shall not murder, which is assumed to also include the murder of one's self. Now the Hebrew word for murder is ratsach, which has the specific meaning of killing as an angry reaction to stimuli or lying in wait in order to kill (as a lion does its prey). For more explanation, see:

"Thou Shalt Not Kill" -- What Does It Mean?

I don't see how the victims of 9-11, who jumped would fall into either of these categories. I think we can safely assume they did not take their lives out of anger, nor did they take their lives with the deliberate intent as that of a predator on its prey. Alternatively, the person who hangs himself in his basement would fall into one of these two categories.

What we find then, when we apply the meaning of ratsach to 9-11 is that those who jumped were murdered by the terrorists. All guilt and divine judgement rests upon them.


bgrad, knowing you are a former Catholic, what do you think the Catholic stance would be?

I know they believe anyone who commits suicide goes to hell as my ex-wife's Catholic family struggled with it when her brother committed suicide.
 
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buckeyegrad;947365; said:
Well, here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say on the issue:

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Suicide

Good luck figuring out where the 9-11 individuals' actions fall.


B. Positive and Indirect Suicide

Positive but indirect suicide committed without Divine consent is also unlawful unless, everything considered, there is sufficient reason for doing what will cause death to follow. Thus, it is not a sin, but an act of exalted virtue, to go into savage lands to preach the Gospel, or to the bedside of the plague stricken, to minister to them, although they who do so have before them the prospect of inevitable and speedy death; nor is it a sin for workmen in the discharge of duties to climb on roofs and buildings, thus exposing themselves to danger of death, etc. All this is lawful precisely because the act itself is good and upright, for in theory the persons in question have not in view either as end or means the evil result, that is, death, that will follow, and, moreover, if there be an evil result it is largely compensated for by the good and useful result which they seek. On the other hand there is sin in exposing oneself to danger of death to display courage, to win a wager, etc., because in all these cases the end does not in any way compensate for the danger of death that is run. To judge whether or not there is sufficient reason for an act which will apparently be followed by death, all the circumstances must be weighed, namely, the importance of the good result, the greater or less certainty of its being attained, the greater or less danger of death, etc., all questions which may in a specific case be very difficult to solve.

Still leaves me wondering.
 
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From what I've read it's estimated that between 50 - 200 people voluntarily jumped from the WTC. I have no idea if anyone knows how many were Catholic but it's a good guess that the majority weren't if you assume that they represented a random sampling of the US population. So if only a few were Catholic then maybe they considered the consequences of jumping vs. burning or choking to death. But I would think that the vast majority didn't give a shit how God was going to judge them and felt they had no better options.

But what kind of God is worth believing in who would send someone to hell for making a decision like that under extreme stress and conditions that none of us can ever relate to? If God's going to send them to hell for jumping, then I say God can go to hell for being such a dick.
 
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Brewtus;947395; said:
But what kind of God is worth believing in who would send someone to hell for making a decision like that under extreme stress and conditions that none of us can ever relate to? If God's going to send them to hell for jumping, then I say God can go to hell for being such a dick.

Well, I demonstrated that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would not. So what "god" are you referring to here?
 
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buckeyegrad;947399; said:
Well, I demonstrated that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would not. So what "god" are you referring to here?
Well ultimately that's just your opinion (of which I agree) as no one can truly know the thoughts and actions of God. I was just commenting that IF God did send all those jumpers to hell (if you even believe He exists), then there are some serious theological ramifications of His actions.
 
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I have a sneaky suspscion that the church itself would say they are going to hell. I dont agree, and local pastors may not either, but if i were a betting man the Pope and the "big wig" Bishops would say they punched a ticket south for not taking up their cross.
 
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I'd say they were screwed either way. If they were to try to escape by going down the fire exits or stairs (all blocked off with suffocating smoke) and knew they would die... wouldnt that just be 'leading lambs to the slaughter?'

With that said; I agree; though I guess this means their are holes or stipulations in the rules of suicide according to the church, I'd perfer not to meet a god who would turn away people that jumped.

Besides, isnt it possible that because the wind current is so strong at those heights that is is entirely feasible to fall several stores and be blown back into the building? or is that something for mythbusters?
 
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Buckeneye;947472; said:
I'd say they were screwed either way. If they were to try to escape by going down the fire exits or stairs (all blocked off with suffocating smoke) and knew they would die... wouldnt that just be 'leading lambs to the slaughter?'

With that said; I agree; though I guess this means their are holes or stipulations in the rules of suicide according to the church, I'd perfer not to meet a god who would turn away people that jumped.

Besides, isnt it possible that because the wind current is so strong at those heights that is is entirely feasible to fall several stores and be blown back into the building? or is that something for mythbusters?

Why I feel the need to add something here, I have no idea... but... lets say this "St Peter" thing is somehow accurate, and given that each individual had no other reason to keep them out of heaven... if you're standing at a window.... and... there is a roaring fire about to burn you to death in 10 seconds or a fall that will kill you in 10 seconds... what's the difference? If the circumstances that led you there are not of your own intentional own doing... and you're gonna die... I mean... what's the difference.

In fact... you probably could make the argument (not that you'd get to) that you knew 99.999% you were going to die in the flames and were only 99.998% that you were going to die from the fall... maybe you did the "right" thing.... (Hey, people fall out of airplanes and live from time to time, right?)

I'd also hazard to say that some of the people who jumped didn't really "choose" to, given the duress of the situation. And building on the idea of choosing or not choosing, I think the interesting question is if you get a pass by choosing a more "palatable death" I can personally say that given the certainty of death either way.... I'd prefer to jump than to be suffocted by smoke and burned to a crisp... but, then you get into gray areas in other situations... such as those who commit suicide who have terminal illnesses... is it okay to eat a bullet if you have inoperable Brain Cancer and "know" you're gonna die anyway... I mean... if there writing is on the wall, does God allow you to choose the time/place/method? And is there a difference in that than the WTC if the difference of the time is 30 seconds, the place is the 80th floor or the pavement, the method is between burning or a sudden decellaration?
 
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Grad was right on a few posts back, and his etymology was very helpful. The people that jumped were essentially killed by the terrorists just as those the suffocated/burned to death were and just as those that were killed by the impact were; I doubt that the Catholic Church would view it otherwise given the circumstances.
 
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Thump;947616; said:
When have you ever known the Catholic Church to be rational?
Exactly. Being raised in all the St. Yournamehere schools, I'm telling ya that the church does not agree with sucide, even if its to avoid a more painful death. I may be wrong, but me thinks if you asked the pope you would get a "tough luck" response. As shitty as it sounds, I don;t see anything anywhere that says sucide is acceptable.
 
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