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Observations from the Barcalounger

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Buckeyeskickbuttocks said:
Penn State
OSU's O gives PSU the ball at the 1. The 1. OSU's D makes PSU take 3 plays putting it in. This score is essentially the difference in the game.
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If taken in the context of trying to define this defense as a good or great defense, i can distinctly remember a defense a few years ago that managed to make quite an impressive stand on the 1 yard line to clinch a football game.

Good defenses keep you in games, great defenses win them.
 
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DaddyBigBucks said:
This was a common argument against Clarrett, usually by vanquished opponents, in 2002.

"Hey, if you take away that (insert number of long runs and their distance here), then the average was only (insert small number here)."

The problem is, the long run happened.

.
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I agree. Just trying to point out that they did not run all over us all day, as the numbers indicated.
 
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LordJeffBuck said:
Enough of the numbers - my eyes and my experience tell me that this isn't a great defense. Sorry....
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Well, that's really as subjective as it gets, especially when others here, with their own eyes and experience (including myself) disagree and consider this a great defense. Just based on pure talent alone, without all the compelling stats XC provided, I'd consider this Buckeye D great.

But really, at the heart of this mini-discussion should be that greatness itself is completely subjective, just like that old justice's determination of obscenity.
 
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BayBuck said:
But really, at the heart of this mini-discussion should be that greatness itself is completely subjective, just like that old justice's determination of obscenity.
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Here is Webster's definition...if it helps :)

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=410 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right><!-- begin content --><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=400 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>great

One entry found for great. <FORM name=entry action=/cgi-bin/dictionary method=post><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0 valign="top"><TBODY><TR><TD><INPUT type=hidden value=great name=hdwd><INPUT type=hidden value=greatness name=listword><INPUT type=hidden value=Dictionary name=book></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></FORM>Main Entry: <SUP>1</SUP>great
Pronunciation: <TT>'grAt, Southern also 'gre(&)t</TT>
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English grete, from Old English grEat; akin to Old High German grOz large
1 a : notably large in size : [SIZE=-1]HUGE[/SIZE] b : of a kind characterized by relative largeness -- used in plant and animal names c : [SIZE=-1]ELABORATE[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]AMPLE[/SIZE] <great detail>
2 a : large in number or measure : [SIZE=-1]NUMEROUS[/SIZE] <great multitudes> b : [SIZE=-1]PREDOMINANT[/SIZE] <the great majority>
3 : remarkable in magnitude, degree, or effectiveness <great bloodshed>
4 : full of emotion <great with anger>
5 a : [SIZE=-1]EMINENT[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]DISTINGUISHED[/SIZE] <a great poet> b : chief or preeminent over others -- often used in titles <Lord Great Chamberlain> c : [SIZE=-1]ARISTOCRATIC[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]GRAND[/SIZE] <great ladies>
6 : long continued <a great while>
7 : [SIZE=-1]PRINCIPAL[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]MAIN[/SIZE] <a reception in the great hall>
8 : more remote in a family relationship by a single generation than a specified relative <great-grandfather>
9 : markedly superior in character or quality; especially : [SIZE=-1]NOBLE[/SIZE] <great of soul>
10 a : remarkably skilled <great at tennis> b : marked by enthusiasm : [SIZE=-1]KEEN[/SIZE] <great on science fiction>
11 -- used as a generalized term of approval <had a great time> <it was just great>
- great·ness noun </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
 
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I think it's possible that if the 02 defense played with this team, it would have very much the same results! The offenses just keep improving. And the rules, or how their being interpreting, has made scoring easier! :nerd:
 
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Our defense was never put in a position to win the Penn State game...it's really really tough to pin that one on them. That last Texas drive...that's a good point. But at the same time, Texas is the #2 team in the country...and that has a large part to do with their offense. So...our defense couldn't win the game on it's own against the #2 team in the country, even though it gave our offense opprotunity after oprrotunity...they just couldn't put it in the endzone themselves, and then gave up a TD against the best player in college football. In the Texas game, our defense did everything it could throughout the whole game to win it. The offense fell short, maybe because at the same time, Texas has an amazing defense.

The 2002 defense was amazing...opprotunistic...perfect. Carried the WHOLE team.

The 2005 defense is still amazing...but isn't as opprotunistic...and can't carry the WHOLE team.

If USC loses a game because of their defense, does that make their offense not great anymore?

If you want to look at yardage and points, as LJB keeps pointing out against MSU and Minny...then the 2005 team is better than the 2002 team. That's really not a good argument.

If you want to argue about carrying a team...and winning every game...then of course the 2002 defense is better.

The season isn't over. This defense still has a chance to make it's mark. When we shut out scUM...will that not be great?

LJB, do you think we have one of the best defenses in the country? Who has a better defense than us? Texas? VaTech? Those are the only two teams I could even think could be argued. I guess i'm just not clear as to what you really think about our defense. A good defense to me is one that is one of the best in the Big 10, and better then most in the country. But I think this defense is definitely the best in the Big 10...and better than almost everyone in the country.

Do you think we have a better offense or defense right now?
 
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The 02 defense is better, solely b/c of the turnover margin. However in 02, we didn't see an offense as lethal as Texas or Michigan State during the regular season. We saw some stars, like Larry Johnson, but they were not as balanced as UT/MSU.

Citing a loss in Happy Valley as a reason they aren't great is a pretty weak argument. They gave up 10 points, and almost pulled off a miraculous 3 and out on a drive starting at the 1. Yes the 02 team managed to do that, but give Miami two drives at the one and I bet they score (Dorsey was beaten like a ragdoll... had he been given a chance earlier in the game like PSU had, he completes that pass to the flats).

After last game I would give the nod to the 02 defense. Their OL is extremely underrated. Nobody has blocked like that against us, including Texas' vaunted line. That gave their superstar, Maroney, room to run, and bought time for Cupito who was absolutely on fire.
 
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With the early season scheduling of big games every season, now, we may have to redefine what is a great team or just a mediocre one! Not lower our expectations, but look at the schedule we play and it's difficulty. :nerd:
 
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This is a copy of what I just posted in the 2002 vs 2005 defense thread:

"Stats and differenital comparisons are cool and such, but they aren't always accurate comparisons. One reason why the 2005 defense compares favorably with the 2002 defense in differential yardage and differential score is that the other Big Ten defenses this year are worse than their 2002 counterparts, thus allowing 2005 Big Ten offenses to score at a higher rate than the 2002 offenses scored. Keep in mind that the 2002 defense allowed one single TD over than last 19 quarters of conference play in 2002 (from Larry Johnson's TD run in the first quarter of the PSU game through The Game). The scoring averages of each of those five teams entering their game with us, and their score against us:

Penn State: 37 ppg (7 points, 1 TD)
Minnesota: 34 ppg (3 points, 0 TD)
Purdue: 27 ppg (6 points, 0 TD)
Illinois: 30 ppg (16 points, 1 TD)
Michigan: 29 ppg (9 points, 0 TD)

Our first string defense gave up a total of six TDs in conference play in 2002. Our first string defense has given nine in our first five conference games this year, with those nine TDs coming in the last four games (well, one TD was the gimme 1 yarder, so let's just count eight). The 2005 defense is very, very good, but it's nowhere near the 2002 defense as a unit."

Just as the last sentence in my post said, we're a very good defense thisyear, but we're not the 2002 unit.
 
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I think we are pretty close to having a great defense. "Great" is not a grand enough definition for the unit we saw in 2002. The DL makes the entire difference. I think if you combined the 02 DL and the 05 LBs and DBs, you would have an even more lethal defense than 02, but that is just on paper. On paper, Gamble should have been good but not unbelievable in 02. Yet he made so many huge interceptions and big plays in the return game.
 
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Does that take into account offensive improvement over the time span? Or the way the rules are being applied by the refs? Like the offensive holding rule? Look at how little offensive holding is getting called! Offensive line play looks like the WWF, now! :pissed:
 
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BB73 said:
Post padder.

I was going to copy that, but I didn't want to be called a plagiarist. :tongue2:
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Come on, we all know you are...


jwinslow said:
I think if you combined the 02 DL and the 05 LBs and DBs, you would have an even more lethal defense than 02, but that is just on paper.
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I don't think that would be "just on paper". If we had the '02 DL with our '05 LBs...shit, I get light-headed just thinking about it.
 
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