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NFL Discussion (Official Thread)

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Jagdaddy said:
If it was so easy, everybody would do it and get similar results. But they don't. That YAC comes from excellent timing and ball placement ... unless you think he's been throwing to HOF game breaking WR and RB talent all these years (and when he had Moss he was throwing bombs to him).

On the original Japanese Iron Chef, there was an old iron chef named Michiba who was always completely calm and barely looked like he was doing anything: Then when time was up he'd produced 7-8 clean, beautiful, simple, and elegant dishes. That's who Brady reminds me of. I agree that the hype can be too much and he certainly gets a lot of credit for early career team success when the Pats had great defenses and he wasn't the QB he would become, but the fact that he makes something that isn't easy look easy supports rather than undermines his greatness as a player.
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What isn't easy about throwing the ball as it's snapped to somebody who hasn't had a chance to be covered yet, then letting him do all the work. I'm not saying he is incapable of making difficult throws. I'm saying he gets way too much credit for the dink and dunk system he has spent his whole career protected by. When somebody is supposed to be the greatest at a position, I'd like to think that person is so great he could do the same things and have somewhat similar success anywhere. You think he has as many rings or as much success on literally any other team? I don't. I don't think it'd be close. I think a ton of QBs would have similar success if they replaced him.......which is kinda proven by Matt Cassel.
 
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Jagdaddy said:
If it was so easy, everybody would do it and get similar results. But they don't. That YAC comes from excellent timing and ball placement ... unless you think he's been throwing to HOF game breaking WR and RB talent all these years (and when he had Moss he was throwing bombs to him).

On the original Japanese Iron Chef, there was an old iron chef named Michiba who was always completely calm and barely looked like he was doing anything: Then when time was up he'd produced 7-8 clean, beautiful, simple, and elegant dishes. That's who Brady reminds me of. I agree that the hype can be too much and he certainly gets a lot of credit for early career team success when the Pats had great defenses and he wasn't the QB he would become, but the fact that he makes something that isn't easy look easy supports rather than undermines his greatness as a player.
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Roethlisberger led the NFL in passing yards this season and his average completed air distance was almost a yard shorter than Brady (4.8 vs 5.6). But Ben didn't play college ball at TTUN, so...

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-completed-yards
 
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Buckeye86 said:
‍*shrug*

You said it yourself, if it was so easy everyone else would do it too, and yet they don’t.

The Chargers largest margin of loss was -12 this season which they managed three times. If they ran such a basic, easily exploited defense why didn’t anyone else manage to?

Also, the Patriots margins of victory (and defeat) fluctuated wildly all season. Perhaps based on who has the easiest signals to steal?
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This time it was -13 so *GASP* conspiracy!

The Patriots lost five road games: two were against former Belichik defensive assistants, two were against teams motivated as hell to beat them after last season (Pittsburgh and Jacksonville), and the other was at Miami (where they've lost 5 of the last 6 visits).

If that's your evidence an unbiased judge would throw that case out in about 60 seconds.
 
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Jake said:
This time it was -13 so *GASP* conspiracy!

The Patriots lost five road games: two were against former Belichik defensive assistants, two were against teams motivated as hell to beat them after last season (Pittsburgh and Jacksonville), and the other was at Miami (where they've lost 5 of the last 6 visits).

If that's your evidence an unbiased judge would throw that case out in about 60 seconds.
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200w.gif
 
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BuckeyeNation27 said:
What isn't easy about throwing the ball as it's snapped to somebody who hasn't had a chance to be covered yet, then letting him do all the work. I'm not saying he is incapable of making difficult throws. I'm saying he gets way too much credit for the dink and dunk system he has spent his whole career protected by. When somebody is supposed to be the greatest at a position, I'd like to think that person is so great he could do the same things and have somewhat similar success anywhere. You think he has as many rings or as much success on literally any other team? I don't. I don't think it'd be close. I think a ton of QBs would have similar success if they replaced him.......which is kinda proven by Matt Cassel.
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There's no doubt that QB success is heavily dependent on surrounding cast, coaching, and system, and no, I don't think Brady would be BRADY had he been drafted by an incompetent organization (but he'd still have been better than what they had). If your argument is simply that the hype that he's indisputably the GOAT is excessive, then I can respect that argument as the complexity of the game itself and of playing the position, and the extent to which success depends on coaching/system, makes such a definitive statement impossible absent Ruthian or Gretzky-esque statistical dominance relative to one's contemporaries at the same position, which he doesn't have. But if you're arguing that he isn't GREAT and in the conversation for GOAT then you're wrong.
 
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Jagdaddy said:
There's no doubt that QB success is heavily dependent on surrounding cast, coaching, and system, and no, I don't think Brady would be BRADY had he been drafted by an incompetent organization (but he'd still have been better than what they had). If your argument is simply that the hype that he's indisputably the GOAT is excessive, then I can respect that argument as the complexity of the game itself and of playing the position, and the extent to which success depends on coaching/system, makes such a definitive statement impossible absent Ruthian or Gretzky-esque statistical dominance relative to one's contemporaries at the same position, which he doesn't have. But if you're arguing that he isn't GREAT and in the conversation for GOAT then you're wrong.
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Matt Cassel was really good for one year in NE and trash everywhere else except for one year in KC with Weis as his OC. I don't know what it is, but they have something that works. If Brady had been drafted by Miami or Jacksonville, he would have been Chad Henne.
 
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NFBuck said:
Matt Cassel was really good for one year in NE and trash everywhere else except for one year in KC with Weis as his OC. I don't know what it is, but they have something that works. If Brady had been drafted by Miami or Jacksonville, he would have been Chad Henne.
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Makes you wonder if the Browns had drafted him who he would have been....
 
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NFBuck said:
Matt Cassel was really good for one year in NE and trash everywhere else except for one year in KC with Weis as his OC. I don't know what it is, but they have something that works. If Brady had been drafted by Miami or Jacksonville, he would have been Chad Henne.
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Well let's unpack that bit. Stats are regular season only except for win totals. I picked the two years for Brady on each side of Cassel's year in an effort to compare apples to apples as best I could. I don't know how the strength of schedule (SOS) is computed; except that negative is easier and positive is harder to some increasing degree in both directions away from 0, so it's included just to show that Brady didn't play easier schedules. Brady's numbers are generally less impressive before the years shown and more impressive after the years shown, which probably reflects both his growth as a player (and ability to rely more on an elite defense early in his career) and more general changes in the game and the way it is played that favor offense.

Brady 2006: 61.8% CP, 3,529 yards, 24 TD, 12 INT, 6.8 YPA, 26 sacks, 24.1 PPG (7th), 14-5 lost conference championship, SOS .99

Brady 2007 (admittedly an incredible outlier season): 68.9% CP, 4,806 yards, 50 TD, 8 INT, 8.3 YPA 21 sacks, 36.8 PPG (1st), 18-1 lost Superbowl, SOS .37

Cassel 2008: 63.4% CP, 3,693 yards, 21 TD, 11 INT, 7.2 YPA, 47 sacks, 25.6 PPG (8th), 11-5 missed playoffs, SOS -2.40

Brady 2009: 65.7% CP, 4,398 yards, 28 TD, 13 INT, 7.8 YPA, 16 sacks, 26.7 PPG (6th),10-7 lost wildcard game, SOS 2.34

Brady 2010: 65.9% CP, 3,900 yards, 36 TD, 4 INT, 7.9 YPA, 25 sacks, 32.4 PPG (1st), 14-3, lost divisional playoff, 2.57

The biggest things that jump out for me are that Cassel took way more sacks than Brady, that his TD/INT ratio was worse in every year (much worse in some of them) than Brady's, and that Brady's winning percentage of .778 is quite a bit better than Cassel's winning percentage of .686. Excluding 2006, when the Patriots relied on a much stingier defense than in succeeding years, Brady also had better numbers in every single category shown in every year than Cassel did except for two more INTS (still a better TD/INT ratio) and a worse team record (against a tougher schedule) in 2009.
 
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