new style of play emerging in the ncaa?

[jimotis4heisman]

i believe this is more than worthy of its own discussion.

for the past couple of years college basketball has been evolving and changing tons.
observations
-more open post play, and more importantly more success with 4/5 gaurd offenses.
-off ball defense, more and more grasping, grabbing, and holding.
-off ball offense, more and more pushing off and grabbing to gain advantage, along with the moving screen (psuedo post up screen) are everywhere.
-on ball defense, tradtionally away from the basket if contact did not have an impact on the play, no harm no foul. lately no hesitation calling a hand check or small reach in 35 feet from the basket.
-on ball offense, more and more pushing off with the off hand.

game style
-more slashing and attacking the rim.
-the three ball, nearly every team has adopted pitnos chip shot philosphy. not only that but the deep three. i must have seen more than a dozen 25 plus foot shots made.

theses things have been taking over college basketball the last few years, and have become more and more evident this year in ooc play, but especially now in the tournament.

officiating
i am one who believes you have to play through officiating and rise above it. this weekend so far the greatest disappointment to me has been the officiating. the officials have played to much of a role in the outcome in many of these games. the inconsistency, not only between games, but within games has been awful.
-traveling, at this point the way basketball is played it could be called on nearly every time a player puts/picks the ball on/off the floor. but, it seems that many times in big poessions a call is made. i have no problem with making the call, but make it in the first half, if you are going to make it after the under 4 timeout of the game.
-palming, i saw palming the ball called atleast a half dozen times so far this week. like traveling, it seems to be only called down the stretch of the game. if the guy gets an advantage palming the ball call it. but call it all game not just down the stretch.
-the charge/block, one of the toughest calls to make. but when a defender is stepping into the guy and a charge is called i cringe. the ac law comes to mind. also, the new interpretation of being allowed to jump up if you stay within your own space is crazy, and inconsistently called/inforced. nothing boggles my mind like the way this rule is called/interprtated right now.
-the flop, anytime someone comes down the lane one of two things happen the first is discussed above the second is a defender steps in and falls back and flops. taking acharge is fine, but the flop is taking over. "a dive" needs to be punished, either with a tech or with a personal foul.
-how many times have you seen that the officials get beat down the floor? way to many for 3 man crews. ive officiated more than one game in my life, and i have been beat down the floor, but this is unexcusable in a three man crew. in a 2 man crew i understand you dont want to bail before the action ends. but this is why 3 man crews are used. absolutely unexcuseable.
-phantom calls, whether it is a foul where little/no contact was made, a travel or what not.
-anticipated calls, how many times did you see an official blow the whistle before the a foul/violation occured. this obviously led to more than one of the above mentioned phantom calls.

the brightside
next weekend the officiating will be much better and much more consistent. why? simple only half the number of crews are needed and the better officials get the nod.

obviously the discussion of strategy and schemes are next here, but its getting to late for the ol JO. more to come later im sure, but until then ill leave the discussion up to you guys

questions, comments, critiques?

 

[scarletngrey11]

I kind of scanned through it, and agreed with everything I saw.

Especially the officiating. Palming can be called every damn time a player dribbles the ball.

 

[jlb1705]

I think much of this can be traced to the fact that the NBA draft has made the talented big-man a dinosaur in college basketball. Big-men with skills would go to the NBA out of high school, while guards for the most part end up still going to college. Without dominant centers, you can't funnel players defensively in to your shot-blocker. Whenever somebody penetrates, the defense has to collapse on him, leaving players open on the wings. Can you imagine how much different the game of college basketball would be if players like Jermaine O'Neal, Kwame Brown, and Dwight Howard hadn't gone straight to the NBA?

I think the new NBA draft rule will change that a little, and Oden should be the vanguard of that change.

Also, I think too many teams are deficient as interior passers - hence the style of play you described suits them better.

 

[OH10]

Officials are dictating how the game is going to be played. Often times, when you see a low scoring game, people think it must have been bad shooting. But really its that the officials are letting them play, and the defenders are getting away with a lot of grabs and holds. Obviously, it's easier to play defense when you're allowed to use your hands instead of moving your feet. You see a lot of this for Illinois when they play at home. Teams can't get into synch because the Illini are allowed to get away with so much.

As far as the long threes go, that's a product of lazy defense. Most college players think they don't have to play defense that far from the three-point line, so the open jumper is there if they are comfortable taking it.

 

[jlb1705]

I don't think it's lazy defense that far away from the basket and 3-point line - I think it's lazy offense. I've seen a lot of guys settle for that shot lately - and if they're taking them more, then they're also gonna pull a few more out of their asses. With few exceptions, every coach in the tournament will let the other team take that beyond-NBA range 3 every time they want it.

Take a look at the sequence Alabama ended their season on tonight. They were only down one, and had plenty of time to drive to the rim or pass into the post. Instead, the ballhandler played one-on-one, got frustrated when his crossover didn't work, and heaved up some ridiculous three point shot with several seconds still on the clock. The long rebound went to UCLA, they dribbled out the clock. Game over.

 

[scarletngrey11]

FWIW I just posted this in the Tournament Discussion thread, but here it is anyway:

FWIW, the 1st round Big 10 teams shot 71 FT's, compared to their opponents shooting 44 FT's.

So far the 2nd round looks like this:

Big 10 FTs: 17
Opponents FTs: 80

 

[crazybuckfan40]

-more open post play, and more importantly more success with 4/5 gaurd offenses.

I think the reason for this was all the good big men were either straight to the NBA or one and done. I think that is why it works, but this is always changing and it just depened on personel.

-off ball defense, more and more grasping, grabbing, and holding.

Laziness, it is all about the O' people don't get down and do the dirty work like they use too. You have to play the whole 35 seconds or how ever long. Good teams do it.

-off ball offense, more and more pushing off and grabbing to gain advantage, along with the moving screen (psuedo post up screen) are everywhere.

I see no problem with a nudge when using a v-cut, but I do see a problem, with the person setting the pick not being set. I would like to see them try and do something about it, but you can almost call it on every screen and that would be annoying to see it everytime.

-on ball defense, tradtionally away from the basket if contact did not have an impact on the play, no harm no foul. lately no hesitation calling a hand check or small reach in 35 feet from the basket.

I couldnt agree more with this. I hate it when they call a foul that is a touch foul and did nothing to affect the play. I look at it kinda like soccer, when there is a penalty they will play on if the attacking team still is in good position. I think you should be able to body up your defender, just not to the point where you are knocking him off course, then it is a foul. Also no holding.

-on ball offense, more and more pushing off with the off hand.

I think this is a perception b/c of the flop. I mean you have to have that off arm to shield the defender sometimes. I think it shoudl only be a foul when the elbow is extended.

-more slashing and attacking the rim.

The dunk has taken over the american style of bball, yet teams that can shoot the ball are usually the team that will win more games.

-the three ball, nearly every team has adopted pitnos chip shot philosphy. not only that but the deep three. i must have seen more than a dozen 25 plus foot shots made.

The reason for the deep 3 is b/c kids can make it and you usually get a cleaner look, b/c the defense has a farther space to cover when coming out. With the 19' 3 pointer and the size of the guys nowadays, it congest the court, so when they step back they get more room.

The reason the 3 pointer is so popular is b/c just about everyone in college bball can make them. Why you ask??? It is too close.

i am one who believes you have to play through officiating and rise above it. this weekend so far the greatest disappointment to me has been the officiating. the officials have played to much of a role in the outcome in many of these games. the inconsistency, not only between games, but within games has been awful.

I think alot of it has to do with what to call and what not to call. Some officials look for differnt things. I hate it when one moment they are letting everything go and the next it is very tight.

traveling, at this point the way basketball is played it could be called on nearly every time a player puts/picks the ball on/off the floor. but, it seems that many times in big poessions a call is made. i have no problem with making the call, but make it in the first half, if you are going to make it after the under 4 timeout of the game.

The most inconsistent call in bball. I also think that if you make the call one way on a close call, you damn sure better make it the other way. The only time they call it consistent is on big men shuffling thier feet. Let me say I have no problem with the guy taking the extra step on a break away dunk tho. As long as he doesnt run from half court or anything. I would also like a breakdown of the jump stop. Sometimes they call it on the hop and sometimes they let it go.

palming, i saw palming the ball called atleast a half dozen times so far this week. like traveling, it seems to be only called down the stretch of the game. if the guy gets an advantage palming the ball call it. but call it all game not just down the stretch.

Here is my take on it, if it doesnt affect the game, much like JJ's in our first round game, why call it. If it is on a crossover and clearly helps the guy beat his man b/c the defender had to freeze b/c of it, call it. Also not a call that should be made unless it is blatant.

the charge/block, one of the toughest calls to make. but when a defender is stepping into the guy and a charge is called i cringe. the ac law comes to mind. also, the new interpretation of being allowed to jump up if you stay within your own space is crazy, and inconsistently called/inforced. nothing boggles my mind like the way this rule is called/interprtated right now.

I couldnt agree more. Once a guy leaves his feet and a guy slides under that is not a charge. Being under the rim is not a charge. I think they need to institue the circle like the experimented with and I think they need to say that the defender needs to be set for a second and once the guy leaves his feet there is no sliding under.

the flop, anytime someone comes down the lane one of two things happen the first is discussed above the second is a defender steps in and falls back and flops. taking acharge is fine, but the flop is taking over. "a dive" needs to be punished, either with a tech or with a personal foul.

I agree with you, I think it should be a personal foul. In a way in ruins the game a little, b/c it si an acting job and has nothing to do with what kind of position or anything you were in. There needs to be a penalty box for flops. There a hockey refrence for you JO.

how many times have you seen that the officials get beat down the floor? way to many for 3 man crews. ive officiated more than one game in my life, and i have been beat down the floor, but this is unexcusable in a three man crew. in a 2 man crew i understand you dont want to bail before the action ends. but this is why 3 man crews are used. absolutely unexcuseable.

It is a part tiem gig, and they arent necessairly in shape. I think that they should have to go to some sort of camp or maybe training in the offseason.

phantom calls, whether it is a foul where little/no contact was made, a travel or what not.

I don't think games are fixed, but some refs will get trigger happy, when they havent blown the whistle in a while, or they have been blowing it a lot. Also the crowd and coaches can dictate whistles or non-whistles for that matter.

anticipated calls, how many times did you see an official blow the whistle before the a foul/violation occured. this obviously led to more than one of the above mentioned phantom calls.

I hate the fact that if a player swats down the automatically call the foul. They need to pay attention and have a late whistle instead of a quick one.


I think alot of the harp on the refs has a lot to do with just the simple fact that people have watched so much bball and they see bad calls. I mean there has never been a game when there wasnt a bad call of some sorts all the way through the game. Also it is intensified, b/c all the games are close and people have their little office pools so everyteam you pick becomes your favorite team.

Imagine watching 48 buckeyes games in 4 days. I am sure you will count your number of bad calls go against us and it is magnified b/c they are your team and if it hurts us and makes us lose then it becomes more of a major issue.

One thing I don't like is just looking at free throw numbers. That has a lot to do with how the team is attacking and everything else, and has nothing to do with officiating.

 

[coastalbuck]

The officiating is crap. All of them, not just Ed Hightower, although admittedly he is among the worst. Inconsistent in every call. In the Duke game yesterday, GW couldn't even touch a jersey and Duke could hack on every shot, no call. I really think the officials try to control the game when they should just call it. It seems to me that when a teams goes on a run they do one of two things, encourage it or stop it. Hell, they shouldn't even be involved in it, just call the damn game evenly and stay out of the momentum. Traveling calls are so inconsistent its almost discriminatory, some kids can't move a shoulder some games while other kids in the same game can make a two foot jump stop, take three steps and lay it in without a whistle. Christ! Don't even get me started on the palming, talk about inconsistent! Believe it or not, I think that call was a point of emphasis for the zebras this year. Yeah, right!!!!!!!!! Don't even think about giving them the ability to call a technical on a flop. The judgements would be horrendous.


Concerning the Three point shot, know what I'd like to see? I'd pay money to see a game between two good three point shooting teams where for the first half, they used the three point shot and the second half, all twos. In my mind that would be very interesting. Another interesting one, play with or without it until the last 5 min. of each half, then change. I just would like to get a feel for how it's effecting the game. To be honest, I don't know if its good or bad. I know they'll never change it, except for playing around with the length, but I'm a traditionalist and would like an opportunity to evaluate it further. JMHO

 

[jimotis4heisman]

running off to dayton.
but you guys seem to be backing me in my observations of the officiating so far.
-pitt has picked up two fouls so far where their post player was set 35 feet fromt the basket and the bradley player is running down the court and intiates contact, then falls to the floor. foul called. i hate to say it but the inconsistency is making this not so enjoyable for me.
-although some of it may be style of play, but i think for once the b10, b10 comp comittee and the b10 officials need some serious recognitioin for thier work so far this year. of the games played so far this year 3-4 of the worst officiated games ive seen this year have been in the tournament (and not necessarily involving b10 teams).

 

[OH10]

Honestly, I prefer Big 10 officials, because they tend to let the guys play. But come tournament time, you get these officials that call these pussy-ACC fouls, and the Big 10 teams are used to being able to play defense a certain way. No grabbing or holding, but certainly contact in the Big 10 is not a guaranteed foul like it seems to be in the tournament.

 

[crazybuckfan40]

Honestly, I prefer Big 10 officials, because they tend to let the guys play. But come tournament time, you get these officials that call these pussy-ACC fouls, and the Big 10 teams are used to being able to play defense a certain way. No grabbing or holding, but certainly contact in the Big 10 is not a guaranteed foul like it seems to be in the tournament.

This is why physical teams have been ousted early.

For example see Wisky, MSU, Ill, Pitt, Iowa, Indiana.

Not to take anything away from the teams that beat them, but there is just down right way too many fouls being called, that have no effect on the play. Whatever happened to the no blood no foul rule. I would like to see that.

 

[coastalbuck]

Honestly, I prefer Big 10 officials, because they tend to let the guys play. But come tournament time, you get these officials that call these pussy-ACC fouls, and the Big 10 teams are used to being able to play defense a certain way. No grabbing or holding, but certainly contact in the Big 10 is not a guaranteed foul like it seems to be in the tournament.

I don't think so. Inconsistancy and control of the game are the problems, not style of play. Look at the Big Ten championship game for example, not to mention a Big Ten official is one of the worst at consistant and invisible calling of a ballgame.

 

[jimotis4heisman]

I don't think so. Inconsistancy and control of the game are the problems, not style of play. Look at the Big Ten championship game for example, not to mention a Big Ten official is one of the worst at consistant and invisible calling of a ballgame.

which official are you referring to?

 

[Bucklion]

I didn't read this whole thread, but I think the proof for your thesis jimotis is in the increased parity in college basketball. Yes, a lot of the major colleges are having to play younger, because older guys go early to the NBA, but it used to be that the 1s and 2s demolished the 15s and 16s inside, which is where the comfortable margin of victory used to come from. Now, teams with 4 guards and one 6-6 guy can compete with North Carolina or UConn. The style of play and style of officiating both contribute to this, IMO.

 

[OSUScoonie12]

I will say the officiating i saw in the games was pretty bad, especially the OSU games. In both games the refs were calling OSU just for the hell of it it seemed like. Those calls get to players and coaches and can swing the game very fast. Hopefully the refs get better and let the players play in the tournament and dont call the whimpy touch fouls. Let them play some physical basketball.