Matta's Coaching Philosophy/Use of Players

[LitlBuck]

I thought I would start this thread so this type of discussion does not get buried in individual player's threads. I suppose this thread can also be used when discussing Thad's offense, defense, and how he likes to coach the game.

 

[Mike80]

We're going to get an education from Matta over the next 8 weeks. Without Turner this team is going to have to scrap at an entirely new level.

I personally think they'll be better for it. I think this team will grow because of Turner's absence.

 

[LitlBuck]

2 Posts from P.J. Hill's thread

This is just terrible coaching to me...Not using guys like Hill, Z, and Kecman...

I just hope people aren't upset late in the season when Guys like Diebler, Buford, Lighty, Turner don't have legs underneath them...

We continue to see it every year under Matta, and we see guys transfer out that don't get playing time...

reply

Hyperbole much?

There are things I wish Matta would do differently, but I'd never characterize his actions as "terrible coaching."

 

[NFBuck]

We're going to get an education from Matta over the next 8 weeks. Without Turner this team is going to have to scrap at an entirely new level.

I personally think they'll be better for it. I think this team will grow because of Turner's absence.

Lighty, Diebs and Buford are gonna have to step up huge. I think they're all more than capable, but where this really hurts IMO, is stretching an already thin bench even thinner. The injury sucks on so many levels, but if there's one positive, it's that he'll be back for the stretch run of the B10 schedule and the tourneys.

It will be very interesting to see what kind of rotation Matta develops with his all-world player out.

 

[LitlBuck]

I guess Thad not using Hill and Kecman against teams that we were really blowing out earlier in the season might come back to bite him a little bit with Turner's injury but I think that Hill has seen enough playing time that it should not affect him. Kecman, from what I saw of him yesterday, seems like he might be a good role player and be able to give some guys a rest. I do not think that Z. is ready for prime time but we have Madsen will be able to give Lauderdale and possibly even Lighty a few minutes rest.

Turner's injury certainly cuts down the bench and I just hope that Buford, Lighty, and JD do not lose their legs as the season progresses because there will be seeing quite a few minutes. I have stated before that Matta never has gone very deep into his bench even when he had good teams at X.

 

[starBUCKS]

While Evan Turner may be the one of the all around greatest to ever lace them up for the S&G, I don't think enough credit is given to the rest of the team. Outside of Buford, I have seen improvements made by just about everyone on this squad. True, that Evan distributing the ball has made everyone better... but that will be the key. PJ Hill will be relied on the most, and instead of cringing when he got the court like last year, I look forward to seeing him in there this season.

Diebler and Lighty will step up on the leadership side of things. After PJ, William Buford will have to step-up the most and completely shake his early slump. Everyone is going to have to do those intangibles a little bit more.

I'm not worried one bit. It's pathetic that some people feel this team will collapse and they are hoping for them to still make the NCAA's. They will be fine, this is a well oiled veteran team.

 

[LitlBuck]

While Evan Turner may be the one of the all around greatest to ever lace them up for the S&G, I don't think enough credit is given to the rest of the team. Outside of Buford, I have seen improvements made by just about everyone on this squad. True, that Evan distributing the ball has made everyone better... but that will be the key. PJ Hill will be relied on the most, and instead of cringing when he got the court like last year, I look forward to seeing him in there this season.

Diebler and Lighty will step up on the leadership side of things. After PJ, William Buford will have to step-up the most and completely shake his early slump. Everyone is going to have to do those intangibles a little bit more.

I'm not worried one bit. It's pathetic that some people feel this team will collapse and they are hoping for them to still make the NCAA's. They will be fine, this is a well oiled veteran team.

I agree with everything that you have said except possibly for the very last sentence. I think you know and probably everyone else that knows basketball knows that you can't play 30 games/40 minutes a season and still have your legs that were underneath you at the beginning of the season. That is the bad thing about Turner's injury. We don't have much of a bench now.

 

[Meyer]

We're gonna need our guys to step up big time

I don't know where the rebounding is going to come from. We could be in a lot of trouble these next 2 months without Evan.

 

[starBUCKS]

I agree with everything that you have said except possibly for the very last sentence. I think you know and probably everyone else that knows basketball knows that you can't play 30 games/40 minutes a season and still have your legs that were underneath you at the beginning of the season. That is the bad thing about Turner's injury. We don't have much of a bench now.

True, Simmons will need to find his role, Madsen will need to play some more important minutes, I'm still uncertain about Kecman... I think he has some skills that just need to be unleashed some more, Z is just a body IMO. Most impoortant are AO, Hill and Madsen for these minutes, work Kecman in some how and we have a 7-8 man rotation. Heck my Suns went 6 deep the whole D'Antoni era.

 

[LitlBuck]

Those of you who question the use of his bench might want to check out post 728 in Matta's thread.

 

[crazybuckfan40]

2 Posts from P.J. Hill's thread



reply

This post may rub some people the wrong way...Let me say that I am happy that Matta has put up 20+ wins in every season, his ability to recruit, but that doesn't mean he is not open for criticism...so here I go...

Terrible?? Yeah I think so...a guy like PJ not seeing the floor against FSU? Yeah we won, but there was no reason for that...He has obvioulsy shown in games against UNC, East. Michigan, that he can score, hit the open 3, play good defense, and not put us in a situation where he is going to lose the game.

We showed yesterday that we play pretty well without Evan on the court and controlling the ball...This is not a dig on Evan, but what it is, that the ball seems to be spread around a little bit more...There were I think 6 guys in double figures...And it was all fed off of PJ at the point...I understand the idea of Evan at the pg, to get the best 5 on the court, but not at 40 minutes/game...

2nd Not sure if you guys have heard Walter's comment about if he would come back now that Turner is hurt and he is still in school...He said no, and that is what he gets for not developing his bench...I agree with Walter...These kids like PJ, Walter, Simmons, Kec, Z are out there in practice working their tails off, and like some would be lead to believe they are upset they are not seeing the court. But it is that they don't feel that they are part of the team, when they go out there show they can help out on the court, and then they don't see the court...

Lets look at this...4 transfers in his time here...a couple guys that left for NBA early, because unhappy how they were being used, and lets not forget the multiple coaches and parents to criticize publically...

And to get back to the idea of dead legs late in the season, we have seen that multiple times in Matta's time here, and also guys that should of been seeing hte court, playing a role late in the season due to injury or whatever reason, but Lighty should of saw more time as a frosh, JeKel, Butler way burnt out, Hill last year...I could keep going...

I am frustrated, Not because I think Matta should be let go, but I feel that he has made mistakes in the way he uses his bench, in not developing a program that has guys here 4 years other than the ones that play from their frosh/soph year on...and then continue with the guys leaving early trend...These are the things that are holding this program back from truly being an elite program, because the talent coming in is very good, but next year, if Turner and Buford leave early we are looking at only Diebler/Lighty/Lauderdale with meaningful playing time, and young guys...and that isn't that bad, but imagine if we could think about Offut, Kecman, Z as well as those 3, and then if we could get a guy like Evan to come back...Just seems we are going down that bad path again...

Think of it this way for those that are going to say that I am off-base, Matta has a-z for this program...

You have a kid that was bringing home C's on their report card. They then went through a change (Coaching Change (Matta) and were bringing home B's and the occasional A, but you knew and felt they could be getting straight A's. That is how I feel about this program. Everything is there besides these couple things IMO, which I believe if we were better at could take us over the top.

Not bashing, just looking for Matta to truly evaluate himself and staff and improve in these areas...Keep in mind I have heard many things from inside the program from the past 4 years...

 

[LitlBuck]

This post may rub some people the wrong way...Let me say that I am happy that Matta has put up 20+ wins in every season, his ability to recruit, but that doesn't mean he is not open for criticism...so here I go...
We go back a few years when it comes to basketball/basketball recruiting so you will always be my basketball buddy and you don't rub me the wrong way. We all have our opinions and while I agree with most of what you have said I will make a few comments below.


Terrible?? Yeah I think so...a guy like PJ not seeing the floor against FSU? Yeah we won, but there was no reason for that...He has obvioulsy shown in games against UNC, East. Michigan, that he can score, hit the open 3, play good defense, and not put us in a situation where he is going to lose the game.

We showed yesterday that we play pretty well without Evan on the court and controlling the ball...This is not a dig on Evan, but what it is, that the ball seems to be spread around a little bit more...There were I think 6 guys in double figures...And it was all fed off of PJ at the point...I understand the idea of Evan at the pg, to get the best 5 on the court, but not at 40 minutes/game...
I agree with you that we should not be playing guys 40 minutes a game when we had the game in hand. However, I do know that PJ has always been one of your favorites and you seemed to point to him more than any of the other bench players but that's okay.


2nd Not sure if you guys have heard Walter's comment about if he would come back now that Turner is hurt and he is still in school...He said no, and that is what he gets for not developing his bench...I agree with Walter...These kids like PJ, Walter, Simmons, Kec, Z are out there in practice working their tails off, and like some would be lead to believe they are upset they are not seeing the court. But it is that they don't feel that they are part of the team, when they go out there show they can help out on the court, and then they don't see the court...
I do not think that just because someone works their tail off in practice that they deserve playing time. However, if the kid is good enough to give us some quality minutes there is no reason that they should not see those minutes if the game is under control. I do not think that Z is ready for prime time and the same goes with Kecman . Simmons has seen quite a few minutes and I addressed PJ above. Walter made his decision and perhaps that was Thad's fault but he has to make decisions based on what he sees in practice.


Lets look at this...4 transfers in his time here...a couple guys that left for NBA early, because unhappy how they were being used, and lets not forget the multiple coaches and parents to criticize publically...
I could care less what other coaches and parents have said. Maybe those kids that have transferred should have given Ohio State more thought before deciding to come here and I don't want to hear about the NBA because you have said multiple times we need to recruit one and done guys to be an elite program.


And to get back to the idea of dead legs late in the season, we have seen that multiple times in Matta's time here, and also guys that should of been seeing hte court, playing a role late in the season due to injury or whatever reason, but Lighty should of saw more time as a frosh, JeKel, Butler way burnt out, Hill last year...I could keep going...

I am frustrated, Not because I think Matta should be let go, but I feel that he has made mistakes in the way he uses his bench, in not developing a program that has guys here 4 years other than the ones that play from their frosh/soph year on...and then continue with the guys leaving early trend...These are the things that are holding this program back from truly being an elite program, because the talent coming in is very good, but next year, if Turner and Buford leave early we are looking at only Diebler/Lighty/Lauderdale with meaningful playing time, and young guys...and that isn't that bad, but imagine if we could think about Offut, Kecman, Z as well as those 3, and then if we could get a guy like Evan to come back...Just seems we are going down that bad path again...
I think this goes back to whether we should recruit one and done players. I do not think that Buford will leave and if he does I think it is a mistake. I think Turner suffering the injury will probably now go.


Think of it this way for those that are going to say that I am off-base, Matta has a-z for this program...

You have a kid that was bringing home C's on their report card. They then went through a change (Coaching Change (Matta) and were bringing home B's and the occasional A, but you knew and felt they could be getting straight A's. That is how I feel about this program. Everything is there besides these couple things IMO, which I believe if we were better at could take us over the top.

Not bashing, just looking for Matta to truly evaluate himself and staff and improve in these areas...Keep in mind I have heard many things from inside the program from the past 4 years...

If you have inside information that goes against everything that I have said than I guess I am all wet or something. I agree that Thad should use his bench more during blowouts or when we have a game in hand but that has always been his coaching philosophy. He has never gone very deep in his bench and I have said that before. Go back to the days when he had good teams at X and you will see what I am talking about.

Say what I have said, I agree that some of the guys should have been given more minutes but I am not certainly the HC and a Division I University.
:highfive:

 

[Bill Lucas]

I have a son who's a high level player. He plays for his high school and then goes on the AAU circuit in the spring and plays another 60-70 games. I offer the perspective of a parent who is used to what goes on and I suspect that if he continues to work on his game that I'll get to see him play college basketball on some level.

That said, here's what I see.

Basketball game rotations are generally about 8 players deep unless there is a blowout going on. We're fortunate that we get to see our son play because he has always been a starter and gets plenty of minutes. We've seen other players leave teams and show dissatisfaction but the bottom line is if you want to play you have to beat out the guy that's ahead of you. Generally most kids aren't willing to do the work to do that. The players that get the minutes not only do the required workouts but work on their conditioning and their game on their own time. They're gym rats. The players that don't get the minutes don't put in the extra time and some of them mope about and sulk.

Obviously, I don't know what goes on behind the scenes when it comes to Ohio State basketball. I suspect that in this day and age every recruit expects to hit campus, make a huge impact and be playing ahead of whoever else is in their class or already present. They're not looking at things realistically. In my opinion there is way too much "me" in college basketball today and not nearly enough "us". The point is that we don't know who works in practice and who "gets it".

 

[BrutusBobcat]

First, I definitely respect cbf40's take on this, and I've wondered a bit about it myself. However, to defend Matta a bit:

Cook got PT, he just didn't start. His "camp" did a lot of grousing, and for sure the kid is a star at the next level. He wanted to be featured more as a Frosh, and there are millions ($$) of reasons why. I can't say I blame him for feeling that way with his talent and the money at stake, yet that was a national championship game team loaded with talent and he still saw tons of minutes. It's hard to fault how he was used, unless you're Cook. :)

Crater bailed without even trying for an entire season, so in this case I do blame the player. Maybe he didn't understand how much work he'd need to do in order to beat out a kid who hustles like PJ. Just because you're a high school superstar, that doesn't make you better from day 1 than the Juco kid who has been busting his tail for three years.

Offutt is a tough case. He was hurt, which set him back a bit, but I expected to see more of him this year. I'm not sure if the incoming class is the issue, or moving Simmons back to SG carved into the minutes he was anticipating. The guy's game seemed to have come along enough to warrant being part of an eight man rotation, but he wasn't in it. (With Turner, I am viewing our rotation as having been: Turner, Lauderdale, Diebler, Lighty, Buford, then Simmons as sixth man, Madsen spelling Dallas, and PJ sometimes spelling Turner. No one else is getting anything other than garbage minutes.)

Anyway, I am not sure if that constitutes a pattern, and I'm not sure if really our rotation is all that shallow. You can't really argue that Hill hasn't gotten tons of PT here, even if he was left out of one game entirely. When Turner moved to PG, you knew that PJ's minutes were shot.

Really, I think the situation with Offutt was losing his "place" in the rotation to Simmons. From a coaching standpoint, it's hard to argue why WO should have been any higher than ninth on the bench, though. Simmons has been shooting better than Buford, and obviously worked hard offseason and has responded to being moved back to his favored position. Are we really going to go nine deep against UNC? Against Cal? Especially when we're talking about the SG/SF positions where we have so many skilled shooters already?

I agree that in the cupcake portion of the schedule that Matta would possibly benefit from loosening up the bench a little more, but I've seen lots of minutes for Z, despite the fact that he's clearly a project. Kecman has worked his way on to the floor a bit, despite definitely not being ready for prime time.

Anyway, it's an interesting point for discussion, though not something I am entirely sold on. Perhaps the issue is less about time on the court and more about communicating realistic expectations to players, or establishing with them what he's going to need to see from them in order to get on the court. I am also not sure if the PT complaints and transfers are really any different than what you see at other programs, keeping in mind that we are not (yet) an elite "name", like UNC, Duke, UK etc. where a player is highly motivated to stick things out due to exposure.

Besides, it could be worse. Randy. Ayers.

 

[Buckskin86]

With Evan Turner healing, Ohio State will have to hope it can find a sturdy bench for support
By Doug Lesmerises, The Plain Dealer
December 07, 2009

SHORT BENCH
The average minutes and points per game over the first seven games of the season for the Ohio State bench.
Jeremie Simmons, 14.7 mins., 9.9 pts.
Kyle Madsen, 14.1 mins., 2.6 pts.
P.J. Hill, 10.7 mins., 2.4 pts.
Zisis Sarikopoulos, 5.6 mins., 1.1 pts.
Nikola Kecman, 4.7 mins., 2.0 pts.

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- "Repetition kills doubt" was the mantra espoused by Ohio State backup point guard P.J. Hill, so when he didn't get off the bench in the Buckeyes' 13-point win over No. 12 Florida State last week, Hill said he wasn't worried.

He was getting his work in at practice.

"If coach feels like the guys out there are doing a good job, I go with coach. I'm 100 percent behind him," Hill said. "I work hard still because I know my opportunity is going to come."

Now that Hill will be the starting point guard for the next two months after star Evan Turner broke two vertebra during an on-court fall on Saturday, there's reason to doubt the Buckeyes' future. Part of that reason is because OSU coach Thad Matta hasn't given his bench players much repetition in games.

"It's really going to test how good of a coach coach Matta is. He's a good coach and he has a good staff, but it puts you at a disadvantage when you don't play your bench players," said Walter Offutt, who decided to transfer from Ohio State two weeks ago after not playing at all in the third and fourth games of the season against North Carolina and California.

"It's weird. I don't get it," Offutt said. "I talked to numerous other coaches and they ask me why he doesn't use his bench, and I can't give a reason for that."

Against three ranked teams this season, Ohio State's bench has played a total of 100 minutes. Twice Matta used three subs and once he used two. Ohio State's opponents in those three games have used the bench for 186 minutes, using six, five and four subs against the Buckeyes.

The Buckeyes are one of four Big Ten teams, along with Northwestern, Iowa and Michigan, with three players [Turner, Jon Diebler and David Lighty] averaging at least 30 minutes per game. Fans have wondered why Matta plays his starters so much and the coach answered questions about his strategy several times even before Turner's injury.

"It's all based on personnel," Matta said. "It goes so much on what you have and who you have."

With Evan Turner healing, Ohio State will have to hope it can find a sturdy bench for support | Ohio State Buckeyes - cleveland.com - - cleveland.com