Interesting Ideas in Education

[buckeyegrad]

agreed, by "c" i ment the number associated to that letter grade. i didn't want to put the actual ranges because some schools use the old 4 point where others differ. "C" was the simplest and most convenient way for me to get that particular part of the idea across.

But even the number associated with the letter grade differs. Perhaps it solves the problem between districts, but between teachers it still exists. A 83% has different qualitative differences between teachers. For example, if one history teacher gives nothing but multiple choice tests and another gives essay tests, requires two papers, and a classroom presentation, the 83% is going to mean very different things. Likewise, in an English class, what one teacher's expectations for an 83% paper can be radically different than another teacher's.

Again, in general I like the idea, but the lack of uniformity bothers me.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

agreed, by "c" i ment the number associated to that letter grade. i didn't want to put the actual ranges because some schools use the old 4 point where others differ. "C" was the simplest and most convenient way for me to get that particular part of the idea across.

There's been so much grade inflation the last twenty years that GPA without the context of class rank is meaningless. Now a lot of high schools are saying that class rank is unfair and that they're going to stop reporting class rank to universities. BS, if you ask me. Just another sad, example of the Lake Wobegon attitude where every child is believed to be above average and their self-esteem is of paramount importance, and if the hs doesn't bow to this idea then the parents will sue.

What's the opinion of some of the hs teachers out there?

 

[buckeyegrad]

Just another sad, example of the Lake Wobegon attitude where every child is believed to be above average and their self-esteem is of paramount importance, and if the hs doesn't bow to this idea then the parents will sue.

George Carlin said it best:

Not all children are smart and clever, got that? Kids are like any other group of people: a few winners...a whole lot of losers.

 

[martinss01]

But even the number associated with the letter grade differs. Perhaps it solves the problem between districts, but between teachers it still exists. A 83% has different qualitative differences between teachers. For example, if one history teacher gives nothing but multiple choice tests and another gives essay tests, requires two papers, and a classroom presentation, the 83% is going to mean very different things. Likewise, in an English class, what one teacher's expectations for an 83% paper can be radically different than another teacher's.

Again, in general I like the idea, but the lack of uniformity bothers me.

determining whether or not a teacher performs to expectations in helping their children learn does not fall under this particular form of legislature. the purpose of this is simply to get parents involved in their childrens lives. both in the real world and in the classroom. imo, a bigger crime would be to handicap a teacher into teaching in only 1 uniform fashion. as it would likely be the one easiest to create pretty graphs and charts with in a metrics report and would likely have nothing to do with which methods were the most effective in helping children learn.

this isn't ment as a silver bullet, but rather a solution to a single problem. while i haven't put a whole lot of thought into that particular problem. i am rather positive that the current standardized testing the gov is currently doing is NOT the way to go either.

There's been so much grade inflation the last twenty years that GPA without the context of class rank is meaningless. Now a lot of high schools are saying that class rank is unfair and that they're going to stop reporting class rank to universities. BS, if you ask me. Just another sad, example of the Lake Wobegon attitude where every child is believed to be above average and their self-esteem is of paramount importance, and if the hs doesn't bow to this idea then the parents will sue.

What's the opinion of some of the hs teachers out there?

my gf just graduated with her masters and is in the process of getting a job as a teacher. one of the schools she taught for did not fail children for any reason. what you stated is the exact reason. this legislation would be the first step in getting away from this mentality, not another way to promote it. if a teacher inflates a grade for a student for any reason they are causing significant damage to that child. there is no section on my performance review for my "self-esteem level". any teacher or school who misreports scores has failed on a fundamental level and must be dealt with harshly. imagine how the ncaa would react if teachers at tOSU started inflating football players grades because they felt less intelligent than other students which was unfair to them.

i don't have a solution for this particular problem yet. i haven't put enough thought towards it nor do i believe i have enough information to form a rational understanding of the situation. i hope to in time. again, this idea is simply a way provide incentive to get parents involved in their childrens lives. something i think is sorely missing in today's youth.

 

[MolGenBuckeye]

There's been so much grade inflation the last twenty years that GPA without the context of class rank is meaningless. Now a lot of high schools are saying that class rank is unfair and that they're going to stop reporting class rank to universities. BS, if you ask me. Just another sad, example of the Lake Wobegon attitude where every child is believed to be above average and their self-esteem is of paramount importance, and if the hs doesn't bow to this idea then the parents will sue.

What's the opinion of some of the hs teachers out there?

Not a HS teacher, but class rank can be unfair for reasons other than false equality. If I take all honors classes and end up with a 3.5, is that worse than someone taking remedial classes who gets a 3.8?

 

[martinss01]

Not a HS teacher, but class rank can be unfair for reasons other than false equality. If I take all honors classes and end up with a 3.5, is that worse than someone taking remedial classes who gets a 3.8?

exactly correct. this is why i didn't want to get too deep into setting a static grade to go by. its very difficult for me to set a specific # or % as im far from an expert on grading scales. i imagine there would be a sliding scale depending on many factors. you would also have to assume that the school was able/willing to report accurate information as well as provide a challenging environment where students are able to learn.

thus far ive gotten excellent feedback from all of you. grad/ord/molgen, do any of you have any suggestions on how to plug the weak spots in my idea?

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

Not a HS teacher, but class rank can be unfair for reasons other than false equality. If I take all honors classes and end up with a 3.5, is that worse than someone taking remedial classes who gets a 3.8?

I'm looking at this purely from a university admissions standpoint. Class rank is very important but in conjunction with gpa, test scores and high school curriculum.

Some kid that has a high class rank, but takes vocational classes and craps all over the SAT is going to exposed in the admissions process.

Where class rank is important is in this scenario. High school A has massive grade inflation--almost everyone graduates with over a 3.5. If that school refuses to provide class rank, it is very hard for a university to put that 3.5 into context, particularly if they're not familiar with a high number of past applicants from the particular school in question. High school B is very demanding, and a student who graduates with a 3.7 or 3.8 has really accomplished something as the class rank number showing how he performed relative to his peers will prove.

 

[MolGenBuckeye]

thus far ive gotten excellent feedback from all of you. grad/ord/molgen, do any of you have any suggestions on how to plug the weak spots in my idea?

The only equal method I can come up with off the top of my head is standardized testing. It may let some bright kids who aren't good test takers slip through the cracks, but it should at least correlate with ability in general. If you used that sort of method, I think you'd have to base it only against the average within a school district, as standardized scores also correlate with income level.

If you didn't want to go to standardized testing, the next best thing I could come up with is an independent review of the students, like an interview or something. I'm not sure it would be any more fair, because then you're favoring students with good personal skills.

Maybe some blend of these and grades?

--- note: serious post ends here ---

You might also want to add in some points for aceing an especially hard test during the current year. And you'd obviously need a strength of testing component. Nothing says education like rejoicing that Johnny Slacker's 34% on that chemistry test made Mrs. Smith's 5th period class tougher than Mary Brownnose's 9th period class with Mr. Jones, putting you in the top eight in the class, and leaving her to whine about Mr. Jones not giving tough enough tests and no one paying attention to classes late in the day because of their bias against west-facing classrooms.

 

[martinss01]

perhaps give a placement test with an emphasis on that particular subject at the begining, midyear, and at the end of the year. this would give you an idea of how effective the teacher was and how far the student progressed.

the problem i see with standardized tests is the ease a teacher would have in teaching "to the test". the teacher would simply spend their entire year teaching their students how to pass the test and not the subject matter. which is the absolute worst possible end scenario imo.

 

[buckeyegrad]

determining whether or not a teacher performs to expectations in helping their children learn does not fall under this particular form of legislature. the purpose of this is simply to get parents involved in their childrens lives. both in the real world and in the classroom. imo, a bigger crime would be to handicap a teacher into teaching in only 1 uniform fashion. as it would likely be the one easiest to create pretty graphs and charts with in a metrics report and would likely have nothing to do with which methods were the most effective in helping children learn.

this isn't ment as a silver bullet, but rather a solution to a single problem. while i haven't put a whole lot of thought into that particular problem. i am rather positive that the current standardized testing the gov is currently doing is NOT the way to go either.

my gf just graduated with her masters and is in the process of getting a job as a teacher. one of the schools she taught for did not fail children for any reason. what you stated is the exact reason. this legislation would be the first step in getting away from this mentality, not another way to promote it. if a teacher inflates a grade for a student for any reason they are causing significant damage to that child. there is no section on my performance review for my "self-esteem level". any teacher or school who misreports scores has failed on a fundamental level and must be dealt with harshly. imagine how the ncaa would react if teachers at tOSU started inflating football players grades because they felt less intelligent than other students which was unfair to them.

i don't have a solution for this particular problem yet. i haven't put enough thought towards it nor do i believe i have enough information to form a rational understanding of the situation. i hope to in time. again, this idea is simply a way provide incentive to get parents involved in their childrens lives. something i think is sorely missing in today's youth.

I am not certain if you took my post the correct way. In no way, shape, or form was I advocating uniformity or standardized tests. I am against both concepts in secondary education. My problem with your tax break idea when it comes to the lack of uniformity is why should people be rewarded at different levels dependent upon their kid's teachers. If you send your kid to St. Charles in Columbus and I send mine to Columbus City, I can guarantee your kid will have to work a lot harder to receive a grade above a "C" than my kid. So, why should I be rewarded more easily than you?

 

[stxbuck]

Not a HS teacher, but class rank can be unfair for reasons other than false equality. If I take all honors classes and end up with a 3.5, is that worse than someone taking remedial classes who gets a 3.8?

Colleges know which schools walk the walk, and which schools talk the talk. For an extreme example-I graduated from St. Xavier many years ago w/ an 87% cumulative average-we didn't do GPA, and a 28 ACT. I was probably in the top 35-40% of my graduating class-we didn't do class rank specifically,either. On the other hand, Bryant Browning-the football recruit-was valedictorian at Glenville this year w/ a 4.1 GPA, but-an 18 on the ACT. Colleges notice things like this, as much as schools try to play games. Bottom line-take as many honors/AP courses as your brain is capable of if you want to get an advantage in admissions.

 

[sandgk]

Horrible idea. All the research indicates negative consequences to forcing college freshman to select a major in terms of their psychosocial and cognitive development.

Here we see the later results of being forced to select an automotive engineering major as a freshman in college.

 

[MolGenBuckeye]

I am not certain if you took my post the correct way. In no way, shape, or form was I advocating uniformity or standardized tests. I am against both concepts in secondary education.

What would you advocate as a way to measure the effectiveness of secondary education?

My problem with your tax break idea when it comes to the lack of uniformity is why should people be rewarded at different levels dependent upon their kid's teachers. If you send your kid to St. Charles in Columbus and I send mine to Columbus City, I can guarantee your kid will have to work a lot harder to receive a grade above a "C" than my kid. So, why should I be rewarded more easily than you?

That's why I thought doing it within districts would be more fair. Sure, there's still differences between teachers, but the difference between classrooms should be less than those between schools.

 

[redskinbucksfan]

An interesting perspective would be to look at the respective tax bases/ rates in correlation w/ grades (and the difficulty of obtaining them). For example, many of the "harder" schools probably have a higher tax base in that district. I'll use grads example. The St. Charles parent probably pays higher property taxes, and it will be more difficult to earn the tax credit, therefore it is an increased burden, and vice versa.... And I just got interrupted and forgot where I was going with this post. Damn. Something about tax breaks for the poor or something and it actually being a good idea and stuff... Feel free to steal this idea and make some use out of it. I suck. That is all.

 

[martinss01]

I am not certain if you took my post the correct way. In no way, shape, or form was I advocating uniformity or standardized tests. I am against both concepts in secondary education. My problem with your tax break idea when it comes to the lack of uniformity is why should people be rewarded at different levels dependent upon their kid's teachers. If you send your kid to St. Charles in Columbus and I send mine to Columbus City, I can guarantee your kid will have to work a lot harder to receive a grade above a "C" than my kid. So, why should I be rewarded more easily than you?

i probably didn't. but again, this isn't a question of standardizing curriculum or teacher ability. this is simply to get the parents involved. whether or not you and i have to exert the exact same amount of effort isn't the point. getting both of us off our collective asses and doing something about our spawn is.

besides, what makes you so sure you would have an easier time than i? if im from the st. charles area i likely had a better education than someone from the inner city. which means that the collective load between the two of us as far as the help the child might need would be reletively the same comparatively.

the ULTIMATE goal would be to get parents involved in their childs life to the point to where students would be doing better not only in school but out across the board regardless of family income levels or schools attended. the job of a teacher would become considerably easier and more appealing. which would allow for better teachers to come into the inner city areas who would present a more challenging workload for a student populous that would in turn be more capable of handling it.

one last question. why is your biggest conscern over whether or not your getting a reward for how well your child does in school "whether or not someone else might have an easier go of it"? you SHOULDN'T need any incentive at all. let alone worry that such an incentive might be easier for someone else to obtain...