Interesting Article on Admissions to Another B10 School

[NewYorkBuck]

After attending both OSU and Columbia - I am convinced of one thing - education "ratings" are overrated, esp at the undergrad level. Sure - class size and facilities are important, but most schools teach mostly the same core w the same books. Calc I is still calc I. Platos Republic hasnt changed much in the last 2000 years. Is there a different quality of teaching? Yes, but this has little to do w school rep, as profs who are draw to these schools do so for research. In the end, like most everything else in life, you get out of a school what you put into it. Where you do it is a distant second regarding the quality of your education.

 

[fourteenandoh]

Not going to get into a pissing match here, but you couldn't be more wrong about what it's like to have attended Miami. Some of the comments in this thread seem to identify the respective writers as having some of the negative characteristics they are attributing to Miami grads. The fact of the matter is that different people attend different schools for differenct reasons. I applied to and was accepted at many of the schools mentioned in this thread, but chose to go to Miami, who in fact offered me the smallest amount of scholarship money. Not everyone wants to attend such a large, urban school, and that has nothing to do w/ your perceived academic snobbery/ inferiority complex. Ironic that the name Fredo was chosen, because many of these posts scream "I'm Smart!". The hate isn't necessary because it is possible to be a huge Ohio State fan and choose to attend college elsewhere.

I agree with everything you say. I don't have a problem with Miami grads being OSU fans. I also realize that many 18 year olds find a place like Miami much easier to handle than a place as big as OSU. The only problem I've ever expressed with Miami is the attitude that many of their students have that they are somehow at an Ivy League school, when they aren't even the best school in the state.

 

[buckeyegrad]

Not going to get into a pissing match here, but you couldn't be more wrong about what it's like to have attended Miami. Some of the comments in this thread seem to identify the respective writers as having some of the negative characteristics they are attributing to Miami grads. The fact of the matter is that different people attend different schools for differenct reasons. I applied to and was accepted at many of the schools mentioned in this thread, but chose to go to Miami, who in fact offered me the smallest amount of scholarship money. Not everyone wants to attend such a large, urban school, and that has nothing to do w/ your perceived academic snobbery/ inferiority complex. Ironic that the name Fredo was chosen, because many of these posts scream "I'm Smart!". The hate isn't necessary because it is possible to be a huge Ohio State fan and choose to attend college elsewhere.

You bring up some very good points in this post.

While I do not doubt the existence of jealousy between Ohio State and either Ohio U. or Miami U., this should not disqualify them as being good schools and more importantly, good fits for students who attend them. No university...not even the great Ohio State...can meet the needs of every student who seeks a college-level education. (Furthermore, if we are to be honest, liberal arts colleges like Oberlin, Kenyon, Williams, Swarthmore, etc are actually the best places to get an undergraduate education is academic success if your primary concern. No other group of institutions comes even close to the percentage of students who go on to graduate studies.)

When I was an academic advisor in the honors program at Ohio State, I often volunteered to due recruitment for the program and university. I'm not sure admissions or development would have liked some of my comments as I told every potential student and their family that Ohio State was not the place for every person. I would discuss all of the opportunities they could take advantage of at Ohio State, but I would always qualify at the end that the student needed to explore all of his/her options, visit each campus, talk with as many people as they could at each university. Part of the reason I did this was my professional ethics in that I knew Ohio State could not meet the needs of every individual, but the other part was that I believed Ohio State could stand on its own merits without having to criticize or tear down other schools in the process.

 

[FKAGobucks877]

This shit just cracks me up...I gotta ask, ORD, did an MU prof. run over your dog or something? What's with all the hate? I spent two years each at tOSU and MU, and at neither place did I even hear there was a competition, let alone a hate relationship. The fact is, at Miami you have a better chance at actually learning and attaining your undergrad degree. The smallest class I attended, in two years at tOSU, was 480 students strong. I met less than five professors, and, quite honestly, could only understand about 60% of the professors. The rest of them, being foreign (I assume to fulfill some BS criteria), didn't have a firm enough grasp of English to talk, let alone teach. Half the TA's I had were great, in that they did what they were supposed to, and the other half remain missing from my memory, as I never did meet them, even at their own study tables.

Don't get me wrong, I love tOSU, and always will. But I don't buy into all the bullshit...schools are different, and each student (or potential student) will choose based on their own wants, needs, and personality. While tOSU is probably a wonderful place to attain your graduate or masters degree, I do not feel, at least from my own experience, that it can come near the strengths of Miami when it comes to basic undergraduate teaching.

 

[buckeyegrad]

The fact is, at Miami you have a better chance at actually learning and attaining your undergrad degree.

What evidence do you have of this? Graduation rates do not indicate whether one school provides a better chance or not because there are too many other variables in place, such as the socio-economic level of students attracted to each college, the motivation of the students going to each college, the number of out-of-classroom-but-academically-related opportunities provided at each college (e.g. study abroad, internships, co-ops).

The smallest class I attended, in two years at tOSU, was 480 students strong.

How is this even possible? I completed 241 hours at Ohio State in my dual degree programs and only had three courses that exceeded 400 students (Econ 200, Theatre 100, and Biology 101). I was an academic advisor for four years at Ohio Sate and I simply cannot believe a student could do two years at Ohio State and have their smallest class be 480 students. There simply aren't enough courses that large for students to take over two years if they are working toward the completion of their GECs (e.g. English 110 is supposed to be capped at 26 students; 2nd-level writing courses number 367 should never exceed more than 50; most humanity courses except a hand-full of 100-level ones rarely exceeded 250; foreign language courses are capped between 25-30).

schools are different, and each student (or potential student) will choose based on their own wants, needs, and personality.

I completely agree with you here.

While tOSU is probably a wonderful place to attain your graduate or masters degree, I do not feel, at least from my own experience, that it can come near the strengths of Miami when it comes to basic undergraduate teaching.

For your wants, needs, and personality this may be true; but it cannot be universalized to everyone.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

Miami does have one of the highest graduation rates for a public university, and maybe the emphasis on teaching plays a part.

I would argue, however, that the biggest factor in this is the socio-economc background of the student bodies. Miami and Ohio State have very close admissions profiles, yet a key difference is that 55% of the student body at Miami comes from families with incomes over 100K, as opposed to 27% at Ohio State. (The average for highly selective public universities is 38%.)

It's the fact that Miami is pulling its students from disproportionally wealthy families--which would also imply that they have far fewer 1st generation college students--than Ohio State that explains their higher grad rates--not some magic in the classrooms in Oxford.

If you take 100 college students with the same gpa, class rank and SAT's: 50 being lower-middle class, first-generation students and 50 being upper-middle class, second and third generation college students, what do you think will happen?

A far more apt comparison between the two schools would be to break down each's student body on the basis of socio-economic background and 1st generation college students--then compare graduation rates between similar groups from each school. I'm willing to bet that the gap in graduation rates would shrink dramatically, if not disappear completely.

 

[BayBuck]

How is this even possible? I completed 241 hours at Ohio State in my dual degree programs and only had three courses that exceeded 400 students (Econ 200, Theatre 100, and Biology 101). I was an academic advisor for four years at Ohio Sate and I simply cannot believe a student could do two years at Ohio State and have their smallest class be 480 students. There simply aren't enough courses that large for students to take over two years if they are working toward the completion of their GECs (e.g. English 110 is supposed to be capped at 26 students; 2nd-level writing courses number 367 should never exceed more than 50; most humanity courses except a hand-full of 100-level ones rarely exceeded 250; foreign language courses are capped between 25-30).

I took 221 hours at OSU and never had a single class that large--and once I started in my major (English), I had only one class with more than 40 students. Even my biggest GECs were only about 150-200 students. But then, I always considered myself a Master of the Art of scheduling (I only met with my "counselor" twice in my 5 years there).

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

The smallest class I attended, in two years at tOSU, was 480 students strong. I met less than five professors, and, quite honestly, could only understand about 60% of the professors. The rest of them, being foreign (I assume to fulfill some BS criteria), didn't have a firm enough grasp of English to talk, let alone teach. Half the TA's I had were great, in that they did what they were supposed to, and the other half remain missing from my memory, as I never did meet them, even at their own study tables.

That seems almost like a parody of Ohio State. I can't remember more than three or four classes that large. Also, by my junior and senior year I was taking upper level classes that were taught solely by full faculty, including graduate level seminars. Here, I had the opportunity to work with nationally known faculty (not to mention study alongside Ph.D candidates that went on to faculty positions at AAU universities) at a level that simply does not exist in Oxford.

Again, Fredo has its strengths and I don't deny them. At Ohio State, nobody is going to take you by the hand and make everything easy. You'll have to make an effort in taking advantage of everything a major research university has to offer. This is no different than the complaints that undergraduates have at Berkeley, Wisconsin or Texas. But for those who do, there's far more available to them than would ever be the case in Oxford.

Yes, it's true that I hate Miami. I give it credit for certain strengths, and I realize that it may be a better fit for some than Ohio State. This, however, doesn't negate the self-satisfied, arrogant illusions that a lot of its students and alumni have about its place in the pecking order, the way that many Miami students love to portray Ohio State as a farm school that's beneath them or the history that Miami has of attempting to screw Ohio State over.

For anyone that has any illusions about how a large portion of Miami students and alumni view Ohio State as a university, as well as Ohio State students, alumni and fans, spend some time reading the threads on miamihawktalk.com. Not a week goes by that they don't have threads bad mouthing everything to do with Ohio State. BTW, the only reason I stumbled onto that miserable site was with good intentions and to talk about last year's game. Only then was I informed that I'm a combine driving farmer who went to a crappy school.

 

[redskinbucksfan]

That seems almost like a parody of Ohio State. I can't remember more than three or four classes that large. Also, by my junior and senior year I was taking upper level classes that were taught solely by full faculty, including graduate level seminars. Here, I had the opportunity to work with nationally known faculty (not to mention study alongside Ph.D candidates that went on to faculty positions at AAU universities) at a level that simply does not exist in Oxford.

Again, Fredo has its strengths and I don't deny them. At Ohio State, nobody is going to take you by the hand and make everything easy. You'll have to make an effort in taking advantage of everything a major research university has to offer. This is no different than the complaints that undergraduates have at Berkeley, Wisconsin or Texas. But for those who do, there's far more available to them than would ever be the case in Oxford.

Yes, it's true that I hate Miami. I give it credit for certain strengths, and I realize that it may be a better fit for some than Ohio State. This, however, doesn't negate the self-satisfied, arrogant illusions that a lot of its students and alumni have about its place in the pecking order, the way that many Miami students love to portray Ohio State as a farm school that's beneath them or the history that Miami has of attempting to screw Ohio State over.

For anyone that has any illusions about how a large portion of Miami students and alumni view Ohio State as a university, as well as Ohio State students, alumni and fans, spend some time reading the threads on miamihawktalk.com. Not a week goes by that they don't have threads bad mouthing everything to do with Ohio State. BTW, the only reason I stumbled onto that miserable site was with good intentions and to talk about last year's game. Only then was I informed that I'm a combine driving farmer who went to a crappy school.

Wow, so much to work with, but I'll let most of it go. A couple of points:
1)Who on this thread is the one holding "self satisfied, arrogant illusions" about his "place in the pecking order"?
2)Apparantly the only strengths you won't deny Miami is that our professors will cuddle all of our rich asses. I came from a single parent home, first generation college student, so spare me the stereotype.
3)You are going to stereotype a university by the behavior of some fans on an internet message board?:crazy:

I know you picture yourself as a "Michael", but your lunacy suggests "Sonny", and as previously mentioned, I can't help but read your posts and thinking Fredo (I'm smaht!) is your closest resemblance. Perhaps your dealings are the result of self-fulfilling prophecy, because I never saw any of the hatred you imply, and thankfully, most posters on this board don't have the same personal axe to grind.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

Wow, so much to work with, but I'll let most of it go. A couple of points:
1)Who on this thread is the one holding "self satisfied, arrogant illusions" about his "place in the pecking order"?
2)Apparantly the only strengths you won't deny Miami is that our professors will cuddle all of our rich asses. I came from a single parent home, first generation college student, so spare me the stereotype.

With regards to 1), show me a respected ranking--undergrad or grad--that puts Miami ahead of Ohio State. Please don't bring up that 20 year old public ivy book either.

With regards to 2), you may have been an exception to the norm at Miami, but the commonly held image of the Miami student body is not a stereotype.

Linked below are two internal documents from Miami itself that supports the view. The first gives the breakdown of students from wealthy families.

http://www.cacubo.org/powerpoint/Milwaukee%20presentations/Miami%20Reallocation%20Plan%2010-18-05.ppt

The second is from an outside study commisioned by Miami U. and contains gems from administrators and faculty such as,

A small group of students – predominantly White – whom we met informally
(they were at the front of the line of students who had camped out all night for Dave Matthews concert tickets) spoke of Miami students as being “all the same,” a situation that seemed fine with them. The students were aware of the “I am Miami” campaign to recruit more students of color, but did not think it would make much of a difference: “People who want to come are going to come,” said one of the students. His statement seemed to be more of an objection to the investment in recruiting minority students than an observation of enrollment behavior. An administrator’s impression was that incoming students are mostly “preppy Republicans,” a perspective that echoes the view of homogeneity shared in several of our interviews (“rich conservatives go here”). Another professor observed that privilege is a “padding they wear” and is exuded in students’ classroom behavior. The professor also noted that students are quite sophisticated in the way that they resist diversity education and he looks forward to the impact that a diverse student body will have.​

Note that these aren't the ravings of a self-professed Fredo(OH) hater on an Ohio State forum but rather actual comments from Miami students, faculty and adminstrators.

http://www.miami.muohio.edu/provost/reports/DEEP_Final_Report.pdf

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

After attending both OSU and Columbia - I am convinced of one thing - education "ratings" are overrated, esp at the undergrad level. Sure - class size and facilities are important, but most schools teach mostly the same core w the same books. Calc I is still calc I. Platos Republic hasnt changed much in the last 2000 years. Is there a different quality of teaching? Yes, but this has little to do w school rep, as profs who are draw to these schools do so for research. In the end, like most everything else in life, you get out of a school what you put into it. Where you do it is a distant second regarding the quality of your education.

Those are some good points. I agree that not only are college rankings overrated, but they can also have built in biases and contradictions. That being said, they're also unfortunately important. It's how much of the nation views a university, and it determines, particularly with top students, a means of making a potential applicants first cut.

I do agree with you in some ways about the same courses being taught. In my mind, there is a fundamental difference when that professor at the front of the class wrote the book, edits the major journal, or conducts the cutting edge research in the field in question. Now, despite his importance to the field, he may be a lousy teacher. He may just not give a damn about undergrads. But, when that professor does commit himself to teaching and does have a national stature in his field, I truly believe that it creates a unique classroom experience.

A great example of this is the chemist Malcolm Chisholm. In a recent external review for his promotion to Disinguished University Professor, a Nobel prize winning chemist at MIT called him one of the most important theorhetical organic chemists in the world. He's a member of the National Academy of Sciences and is seriously considered each year for the Nobel. He also has taught introductory chemistry every year that he's been at Ohio State and is said to be a very accessible and engaging teacher. I'm sorry but that kind of opportunity does not exist at Miami.

 

[FKAGobucks877]

I'm sorry, bro, but you are the only person that I have ever heard that had such a hate relationship with a college. Damn. As for the class size, it's true...although somewhat misleading. My mother was quite ill for those two years at tOSU, so I was only a full-time student (or a student at all) in 3 quarters. I don't remember the exact numbers, but classes like History, Trig, Poly Sci, Sociology, and even chemistry were that large. My chem. lab was obviously much smaller, but the lecture was probably around 500 people. I did not have a math or science professor that was American-born, and only one of them could speak passable English.

The largest class I had at Miami was about 250, and that was because it was a psych credit for watching sex movies. Other than that, it was around 60.

I don't really care enough about this subject to do research to try and point you to polls or books or anything else that will rank the colleges or their graduation rates. What I will do is relate to you my own personal experience, along with make fun of you for hating a school so violently...one that you've never even attended.

 

[NewYorkBuck]

Those are some good points. I agree that not only are college rankings overrated, but they can also have built in biases and contradictions. That being said, they're also unfortunately important. It's how much of the nation views a university, and it determines, particularly with top students, a means of making a potential applicants first cut.

I do agree with you in some ways about the same courses being taught. In my mind, there is a fundamental difference when that professor at the front of the class wrote the book, edits the major journal, or conducts the cutting edge research in the field in question. Now, despite his importance to the field, he may be a lousy teacher. He may just not give a damn about undergrads. But, when that professor does commit himself to teaching and does have a national stature in his field, I truly believe that it creates a unique classroom experience.

A great example of this is the chemist Malcolm Chisholm. In a recent external review for his promotion to Disinguished University Professor, a Nobel prize winning chemist at MIT called him one of the most important theorhetical organic chemists in the world. He's a member of the National Academy of Sciences and is seriously considered each year for the Nobel. He also has taught introductory chemistry every year that he's been at Ohio State and is said to be a very accessible and engaging teacher. I'm sorry but that kind of opportunity does not exist at Miami.

ORD - you make some good points too. It is unfortunate that the rankings matter so much. I have been too close to too many people who work in admissions to fool myself that getting into an Ivy League school is in all cases based primarily on merit. Eventhough I graduated from one, I typically do not like to recruit from the Ivies for positions in my group. What I like to do is skim the cream from the perhaps second tier schools - you know - the kids who would have went to Harvard if they had the right last name. To coin a phrase from Wall St - these kids are poor, smart, and hungry. I give them their chance on the street, and they are willing to die for me. Conversely, I dont want a kid who can just call his daddy for another job if Im working him too hard.

As far as profs who write the books, I have to agree with you there as well. One of the best classes I took at Columbia was money & banking with Fred Mishkin. He not only wrote the book, but he was also on the Fed at one point. Talk about great stories to tie in w the material.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

I'm sorry, bro, but you are the only person that I have ever heard that had such a hate relationship with a college. , along with make fun of you for hating a school so violently...one that you've never even attended.

Geez, that couldn't describe several thousand Buckeye fans and their hatred of Michigan (or vice-versa), could it?

Or USC and UCLA fans? Or Alabama and Auburn fans? Or Texas and Texas A&M fans? Somebody stop me!

Now it's true that I choose to direct my enmity towards an in-state university that is not our competitor in athletics but is our rival for a lot of other things: top 10% Ohio students, rankings and recognition, state support...In other words, some very important things that truly affect Ohio State's primary mission--as the state's flagship university.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

I did not have a math or science professor that was American-born, and only one of them could speak passable English.

Well, you're right about Malcolm Chisholm. He's English borne. He's also a member of the Royal Academy of Sciences--you know...Newton...Darwin...and so on...

I'm sure that Fredo(OH) has many members also.