Indy 500 Congrats to Sam Hornish Jr.

[Dublin Buckeyes]

The Indy 500 hasn't been crap since 1995.

When Tony George started his IRL on a temper tantrum, he created a rift in America that knows no end for American open wheel racing.

CART/Champ Car is the only true racing series left in America, everything else is pathetic and sad.

You guys may have been moved by the race, but I assure you that the contrived racing that exhists there now was no where near the level on completness that once exhisted at the speedway.

For reference, those cars are full out the entire lap, pedal to the floor, yet they are slower than the 1995 cars by quite far.

What you all witnessed was not a race, it was Nascar without fenders, and nothing near what once used to race at the fabled speedway.

I miss Indy for what it once was when I grew up in Ohio, and it will never be the same.

If you want to be educated about real racing, head to www.champcarfanatics.com/forums

Let me know you're coming and we'll save you a spot in Cleveland.

 

[Dublin Buckeyes]

Heres the 1992 finish(Last 7 laps, plus some post race stuff)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0orHQo57S9Q

Here's the 2006 finish(Last 5 Laps)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYb3Yt3hdfc


Also, heres a video I found of the Indy race car, its old(92) but I thought it was good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3_DsCacxM8

All those videos from youtube.com are from a friend of mine on champcarfanatics.com/forums. if you guys want to talk, feel free to log on. PM me and I'll send you my name and stuff.

If any of you guys have ever gone to Mid-Ohio, that poster is editing the 2000 CART race from Mid-Ohio as we speak and soon it will be online.

I went to Mid-Ohio every year from 89 til the last one. Great times. Something to look for. Hope there are some Champ Car or Formula 1 fans out there.

IRL Blows!

 

[WoodyWorshiper]

NJ-Buck,

"Sam Hornish" NOT a sexy name?

Repeat this in your head:

"Me SO Hornish,"
"Me SO Hornish,"

"Me LAP You LONG Time."

I think a T-Shirt deal is in the making. Peace.

 

[tedginn05]

For reference, those cars are full out the entire lap, pedal to the floor, yet they are slower than the 1995 cars by quite far.

I know. I think they said on Sam Hornish's last lap his speed was a little under 218, on the last lap of the 1992 race, Little Al's was 224-almost 225.

 

[Dublin Buckeyes]

I know. I think they said on Sam Hornish's last lap his speed was a little under 218, on the last lap of the 1992 race, Little Al's was 224-almost 225.

Just further shows a decline in a once great race.

 

[NJ-Buckeye]

The Indy 500 hasn't been crap since 1995.

... For reference, those cars are full out the entire lap, pedal to the floor, yet they are slower than the 1995 cars by quite far.

My first response would be... Goodyear tires vs Firestone tires... but in fairness, the cars were intentionally slowed down over the last decade... In the last few years Goodyear did Indy, every year we were forced to slow down the car...

Any of the big tire makers could increase the speed of these cars immensely... by merely decreasing the sidewall strength and take additional tread off the footprint... basically making it a rubberized balloon... but the minute it'd hit debris on the track.. or face a miserable surface like the Michigan track... the tires would explode... which is exactly why Firestone left the circuit... because they went that route... and the tires used today are actually Bridgestone brand but labeled with Firestone for marketing purposes...

 

[Buck Nasty]

I am on the same page as Dublin Buck, I love open wheel racing, and it kills me to think of what one guys ego has done to the sport.

I will pretty much watch most any type of motorsports, but over the past few years NASCAR has become the WWF and the IRL is not far behind. It has gotten so political that they are now down to one engine package and two chassis. That is pathetic.

While I would agree that the interest in the 500 has risen a little in the past year or two. There are nowhere near the amount of fans as there used to be. I saw tons of empty seats in the grandstands, and they don't let people use the infield like they used to since they added the F1 track.

I miss the good old days of CART for sure.

I put Tony George in an elite group of A-holes including Skip Bayless and Dr. Phil.

 

[Dublin Buckeyes]

My first response would be... Goodyear tires vs Firestone tires...

Interesting point, but the tires are not the issue. Actually today's tires are clearly better based on the fact that 100% of lap is full throttle. Tire performance or not, they are pedal to the floor all the time. The problem is the downforce making the cars to easy to drive.

When CART driver(current McLaren F1 Driver) Juan Montoya said his grandmother could drive one of those cars, he was not joking. In 1995 the cars were faster, hell in 1991 the cars were faster, even though the tire technology and chassis technology forced them to brake going into the corners as any real race car should have to do.

minute they face a miserable surface like the Michigan track... the tires would explode... which is exactly why Firestone left the circuit... because they went that route... and the tires used today are actually Bridgestone brand but labeled with Firestone for marketing purposes...

that is true, and the same tires are used by Champ Car(for all intensive purposes). The difference is the chassis and the downforce. The huge(read: idiotic) wings on the IRL cars allow them to create enough downforce to make the driving easier than normal. I have not heard of a reason why Firestone left the tire design to Bridgestone. I assume it is because after the tire war was over, there is no need to continue development, and Champ Car already had the better tires, so no need to remake something that is already better.

I just want everyone to hopefully understand that the IRL today, is not the CART/IndyCar World Series of 1995 and previous. It is not the same, the cars are created for 'thrilling' finsihes. They always have boring racing and a ten lap shoot out and that is exactly why Nascar, in the long run, will lose fans.

Eventually the staged finishes and emotional victories will get tiring. And Champ Car will be there to pick up the pieces and show America that great racing does exhist in its purest form.

 

[Thump]

The old cars had turbo-chargers and I believe the IRL cars do not.

 

[scarletandgrey]

Just further shows a decline in a once great race.

I disagree with you here bro. I've been going over to the 500 since '93. Yes the speeds were faster but you can't sit here and tell me that them slowing the cars down hasn't saved lives. I believe the track record is around 232 mph that's just insane. They have restrictor plate races in NASCAR for the same reasons. It's a safety issue. You can't take way from the level of competiveness that the drivers still compete at just because they slowed the cars. It's still a good race anyway you look at it.

 

[Dublin Buckeyes]

The old cars had turbo-chargers and I believe the IRL cars do not.

Formula 1 cars also do not have turbochargers, yet they are the fastest 0-200mph-0 race cars out there. They also have smaller litre V-8 engines this year, as opposed to the V-10's used since 1994(by most teams) and they are STILL faster. It isn't the engine. That I can assure you.

On an oval, even a normally aspirated F1 car from the last 5 or more years would break the 240mph+ record set by CART at Fontana, California Speedway.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

SNG - While I feel kinda ridiculous going against your safety argument, lets face it, Auto racing has always been about getting to the finish line as fast as possible. Slowing cars down takes away the excitement for me. Talladega is a perfect example in NASCAR, that race used to be a ballsy ass race.... now, it's follow the leader. Furhtermore, bunching cars up isn't necessarily in favor of safety. Even slowing these cars down, 220 is still pretty damn fast. (Edit - I realize I changed series while making this statement... sorry)

When Penske built two push-rod engines and dominated the race (Fittapaldi crashed on lap 190 or so, Unser Jr. won) THAT was what the tradition of Indy was about.. a guy having the balls to try somehting... to test the limits of machine...

While you hate to see a guy get seriously injured or die, racing is a sport where the drivers are aware of the risk when they decide to do it. And that's one of the reasons why people like me are in awe of what they do. Not so much now. A great driver is still a great driver, but a great driver used to be a ballsy motherfucker too... Earnhardt's early career is a prime example. Slowing the cars down has, in my view, taken away much allure of autoracing.

 

[Dublin Buckeyes]

I disagree with you here bro. I've been going over to the 500 since '93. Yes the speeds were faster but you can't sit here and tell me that them slowing the cars down hasn't saved lives.

CART did over 240mph average lap at Fontana California. The back straight speeds were probably somewhere in the 260-265 range for qualifying. CART cars are significantly faster, and safer than IRL cars. I could pull out statistics if you would like, but lets say the broken backs and deaths in the 10 years of the IRL overshadow all of CARTs years, and even make antiquated Nascar look like a safety brigade.

I believe the track record is around 232 mph that's just insane. They have restrictor plate races in NASCAR for the same reasons.

Restrictor plate racing is to help with speed, yes, but it hardly helps with safety. Those packs traveling at 180-200mph are a hell of a lot more dangerous that cruising around without them.

Pack racing is horrible, which in Nascar can be a bad thing during crashes on superspeedways. The problem with the IRL is that their managed competition has lead to pack racing at their tracks. Have a closed wheeled and closed cockpit Nascar going around at 200 is one thing, having an open wheel IRL car doing the same thing while traveling faster with 33 drivers, half of whom are of suspect racing pedigree is something else.

It's still a good race anyway you look at it.

CART had good racing at Indy, going faster, and still being safer. The cornering speeds are something that make the difference. The limitless downforce of an IRL is the problem. Entering a corner at 225 is one thing, holding onto that speed is another.

In the CART days you would enter turn 1 at 240, exit on the short chute at 215/220 and exit the 2nd turn at about that speed also.

Its not just about the average speed, accidents generally don't happen on the straightaways, the problem is the turns, with cars that are going too fast for over 50% of the IRL fields capabilities.

CART may have the highest closesd course speed record, at over 240mph, but because they had to lift the throttle in the corner and drive the cars, it made them MUCH safer.

Plus the general design of the IRL car is flawed, that is proven at almost every race with a vertabrae break or fracture of some kind.

THe cars have been proven to have a propensity to also fly when the spin sideways. The shape of the car was not studied enough and during a high speed spin they were liable to take flight. For examples of this, see Mario Andretti's testing accident, Tony Renna's accident(both at Indy on the speedway WITHOUT anyone else on the track), Buddy Rice's race flip, and numerous others.

Although there are all these safety concerns, they go ignored by the owners, and President Tony George, and overall have yet to be rectified.

Paul Dana's death was another example of drivers with not enough talent, in cars that hold speed too much in the corners, when they should never be used for pack racing, and don't have safety specifications that the FIA mandates for open wheel cars.

 

[Dublin Buckeyes]

Furhtermore, bunching cars up isn't necessarily in favor of safety. Even slowing these cars down, 220 is still pretty damn fast. (Edit - I realize I changed series while making this statement... sorry)

That is an excellent point. But it also isn't just about average speeds. Its how those speeds are maintained in corners. If the drivers in Nascar had to actually drive, and slow down going into corners, yes speeds would increase, but the margin of safety would also.

When Penske built two push-rod engines and dominated the race (Fittapaldi crashed on lap 190 or so, Unser Jr. won) THAT was what the tradition of Indy was about.. a guy having the balls to try somehting... to test the limits of machine...

Penske went balls out the next year, and did NOT even make the 33 starters in bump day. That is what Indy is about, I agree. Go balls out, make the race and win it. Don't limp into the 500 without any bumping(such as this year and past years). Get out there, with drivers you trust and push the limits.

Slowing the cars down has, in my view, taken away much allure of autoracing.

I agree, but one cannot overlook driver safety, as you have said. Unfortunitely, driver safety has not been an issue for the Indy owners since they started the IRL. They are under a misconception that controlling the speed, and the show is how it is done. When in reality, proper R&D, safer cars modeled on FIA standards, and a change in wing/downforce rules are what is needed to make safety come to the forefront.

 

[tedginn05]

I disagree with you here bro. I've been going over to the 500 since '93. Yes the speeds were faster but you can't sit here and tell me that them slowing the cars down hasn't saved lives. I believe the track record is around 232 mph that's just insane. They have restrictor plate races in NASCAR for the same reasons. It's a safety issue. You can't take way from the level of competiveness that the drivers still compete at just because they slowed the cars. It's still a good race anyway you look at it.

Fastest Qualifying Speed:

• 237.498 mph / 382.216 km/h, one lap, Arie Luyendyk, 1996
• 236.986 mph / 381.392 km/h, four-lap average, Arie Luyendyk, 1996

Fastest Race Lap:

• 236.103 mph / 379.971 km/h, Eddie Cheever, 1996

Fastest Unofficial (Practice) Lap:

• 239.260 mph / 385.052 km/h, Arie Luyendyk, May 10, 1996

Indy 500 Records

Fastest Laps of the Race(1951-2005)