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Indians Tidbits (2006 season)..

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ABJ

4/14/06

Fateful seventh hands Seattle series

Indians bullpen allows Mariners to come back and claim late victory

By Sheldon Ocker

Beacon Journal sportswriter

<!-- begin body-content -->CLEVELAND - Let's start with a nomination: For the Indians' worst half-inning of the season, the Seattle seventh.
There's a long way to go, of course, but this one could stand the test of time. Maybe more important in Thursday night's 9-5 loss to the Mariners was the performance of the bullpen.
In 3 1/3 innings, the relief corps gave up six runs (five earned), four hits and six walks.
Scott Sauerbeck was charged with the defeat, but Rafael Betancourt, Guillermo Mota and Fernando Cabrera didn't escape blame on merit. Danny Graves doesn't count. He retired the only batter he faced.
Moreover, there might be a trend developing: In the past four games, the Tribe bullpen has yielded 15 runs (14 earned), nine hits and 10 walks in just 12 1/3 innings.
Not coincidentally, the Indians have lost two of these four.
``From the seventh inning on, walks really hurt us,'' Indians manager Eric Wedge said. ``We were in position to win that game, but we didn't pitch ahead in the count and gave up leadoff walks.''
The Indians' attack wasn't quite as persistent as usual, but five runs isn't chopped liver. The Tribe amassed 12 hits and had the benefit of four walks but didn't take full advantage, failing to score after the fifth inning.
``The offense did a pretty good job,'' Wedge said. ``But I think the seventh inning took the wind out of our sails a little bit. It was just one of those nights.''
Fittingly, the Seattle seventh began with a walk. Why fittingly? In the sixth, starter Jason Johnson walked the bases loaded with two outs before Betancourt came to the rescue to strike out Jeremy Reed.
Tribe pitchers learned the hard way that issuing walks eventually leads to disaster.
That's what happened in the seventh. One out after Yuniesky Betancourt walked, Jose Lopez homered to draw the Mariners even at 5-5. Sauerbeck was summoned to face lefty Raul Ibanez, who singled. Then Mota took over and gave up a double to Richie Sexson, putting runners on second and third.
``I got out of the (sixth) inning and just had to throw strikes after that, and I didn't,'' Betancourt said.
After an intentional walk to Adrian Beltre, Mota walked Carl Everett unintentionally to force in the lead run. Then came the bad-to-worse part. Kenji Johjima slapped a bouncer to third, and Aaron Boone's throw home pulled Victor Martinez off the plate for an error that scored an unearned run, giving the Mariners a 7-5 advantage.
It took three pitchers and 38 pitches to retire three batters in the seventh, as 10 hitters came to the plate and four scored.
``It is very uncharacteristic of our staff,'' Wedge said of the lack of control. ``We've got guys who throw strike one, who are aggressive on the plate. But tonight we weren't.''
Johnson got little resistance from the Mariners for four innings, allowing just two hits, walking none and striking out four. In the fifth, Reed's sacrifice fly scored one run, and Ichiro Suzuki's two-run homer trimmed the Indians' lead to 4-3.
``I think my mechanics really got screwed up at the end of the fifth and in the sixth, and they made me pay for it,'' Johnson said. ``It was just frustrating trying to get my mechanics straight, which I didn't.
``I'll take the loss. I should be getting into the seventh and eighth innings, and I didn't do it.''
The confrontation between the Tribe and highly-touted right-hander Felix Hernandez, who turned 20 last weekend, never quite materialized.
It became obvious quickly that Hernandez has the physical talent to become a top-of-the-rotation pitcher. His fastball routinely sped to the plate at 95 mph, and at least one registered 99 on the radar gun.
But he gave up five runs, seven hits and four walks in 4 2/3 innings. His pitch count quickly climbed to 102.
Ben Broussard led off the second with his first home run of the season, and Ronnie Belliard whacked a two-run shot in the fourth. Belliard also drove in a run with a single in the fifth after Hernandez left.
Cabrera was hit in the heel by a hard smash but apparently suffered no serious damage.
``It's a little sore, but I think it will be fine,'' he said.
Fans picked Thursday night to set a Jacobs Field record for walk-up ticket sales -- 8,510 -- to lift attendance to 24,638. The previous best for walk-ups was July 4, 2004, when 6,720 bought tickets the day of the game.
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ABJ

4/14/06

No excuses for bad baserunning

Wedge says mistakes won't happen again

By Sheldon Ocker

Beacon Journal sportswriter

<!-- begin body-content -->CLEVELAND - It was the kind of bonehead play that takes awhile to run its course on various TV sportscasts.
It happened Wednesday night in the very first inning of the Indians' 11-9 loss to Seattle. Jason Michaels took off too early from second and was caught in a rundown. At first, Jhonny Peralta started to steam toward second, hesitated and also was tagged out.
End of threat, end of inning, beginning 30 seconds of televised lowlights on the 24-hour news cycle.
``The good thing about that it's early in the season,'' manager Eric Wedge said on Thursday. ``That can't happen, and it won't happen again.''
Wedge believes the mistakes will serve as object lessons that last at least the rest of the season.
``With a 3-and-2 count, we were running on the play to stay out of a double play,'' Wedge explained. ``The way he's going, I'm pretty confident Travis Hafner makes contact. But you have to treat it more like a hit and run, because you don't want to get picked off.''
In other words, Michaels should have made certain the pitcher was going to the plate before he headed toward third. For his part, once Michaels got caught in the middle, he should have made a headlong dash toward second, regardless of what he thought would happen to Peralta.
``If Hafner does strike out, then it's on me,'' Wedge said. ``That's the way it works.
``And once (Michaels) gets in a rundown, the other guy has to go. Even if both runners ended up on the same base, we'll have one guy in scoring position.''
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ABJ

4/14/06

INDIANS NOTEBOOK

<!-- begin body-content -->CLEVELAND - Arrival of Carmona
means one has to go
When Fausto Carmona is added to the roster for his start in Detroit on Saturday, someone will be going to Buffalo.
Presumably, the unlucky player will be Jason Davis, added to the bullpen when C.C. Sabathia went on the disabled list.
``We haven't really talked about it at length,'' Wedge said. ``We're still going to have to make a decision about that.''
Davis has an option remaining, and he has pitched only once since reporting to Cleveland. His two-inning appearance Wednesday night was his first since March 30 in spring training.
``They have to make a move, and I guess I'll find out on Saturday,'' Davis said.
EXTENDING IN EXTENDED -- Steve Karsay has been building his arm strength in extended spring training games in Winter Haven.
``We're stretching him out a little bit,'' Wedge said. ``At some point, he'll probably go to Buffalo, but that's more of a conversation between Steve and (General Manager) Mark (Shapiro).''
PROBLEM BREWING? -- In his two starts, Paul Byrd has compiled a 10.24 ERA, despite a 1-1 record. More worrisome than the inflated ERA is the fact that Byrd has walked six in 9 2/3 innings, out of character for a control pitcher.
``Last night, his pitches were either coming back over the plate or running off the plate,'' Wedge said. ``The baseball is doing what Paul wants it to do, but he needs to command it better.''
FARM FACTS -- Jeremy Sowers yielded one run on one hit in six innings, as Buffalo beat Norfolk 4-1. Franklin Gutierrez doubled and homered in the Bisons' 8-3 win over Norfolk, and Ryan Garko had three hits to raise his average to .357.... Stephen Head homered and singled in Kinston's 3-1 win over Wilmington, and Sean Smith worked six innings, allowing one hit and one run.
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Dispatch

4/14/06

Disturbing number of walks, subsequent runs dogging Byrd

Friday, April 14, 2006

Scott Priestle
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH

<!--PHOTOS--><TABLE class=phototableright align=right border=0><!-- begin large ad code --><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE align=center><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle>
20060414-Pc-C7-1100.jpg
</IMG> </TD></TR><TR><TD class=credit width=200>RON SCHWANE | ASSOCIATED PRESS </TD></TR><TR><TD class=cutline width=200>Ben Broussard of the Indians connects for a solo home run off Mariners’ pitcher Felix Hernandez in the second inning last night. Broussard’s home run, his first of the season, and another by Ronnie Belliard helped Cleveland establish a 4-0 lead, but it wasn’t enough as the Mariners won 9-5 to hand the Indians their second straight loss. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


CLEVELAND — Paul Byrd was frustrated with his performance Wednesday night in an 11-9 loss to Seattle. Not only did he fail to finish the fourth inning, but the decisive rally an inning earlier started with two walks.
In two starts for the Indians, Byrd has allowed six walks and 11 runs in 9 2/3 innings. He allowed only 28 walks in 204 1/3 innings last season. In 12 of his 31 starts, he did not walk a batter.
"Hopefully this is just a fluke and not a pattern," he said.
Pitching coach Carl Willis broke down video of Byrd’s two starts with the Indians and some of his outings last season with the Los Angeles Angels, and Willis said he noticed subtle differences in Byrd’s delivery. It no doubt will be a focal point before his next scheduled start, Monday in Detroit.
"He’s been around long enough. He has a tremendous feel for pitching," Willis said. "We should be able to work this out relatively soon."
Byrd was behind in the count to 10 of the 21 batters he faced Wednesday.
"He’s a contact pitcher, and when you’re a contact pitcher, you need to be ahead in the count so you get the hitter to make contact with your pitch," Willis said. "You put the hitter on the defensive."
It’s a start

Barring injury, Jason Davis is expected to be optioned to triple-A Buffalo after the game tonight to make room for Fausto Carmona, who will start Saturday. But Davis made a favorable impression Wednesday, when he allowed one run in two innings with two strikeouts, after a strong showing in spring training.
"He stayed in his delivery in a regular-season game as well as he has in about a year and a half," Willis said.
Davis has arguably the best arm in the organization, and Willis said he frequently wows the coaches with his work in the bullpen. But when he gets on the mound, Davis has a tendency to overthrow.
"I think he’s learned how to control his emotions, keep them at a level working pace," Willis said.
Hit and run

The Indians let a routine popup fall for a hit Wednesday, and bad base-running cost them two outs on one botched play. Manager Eric Wedge was willing to write off the mistakes as an early-season learning tool. "As tough as it was," he said, "it won’t happen again." . . . Jeremy Sowers has allowed only one unearned run in 12 1/3 innings in two starts for triple-A Buffalo. . . . Franklin Gutierrez is hitting .345 for Buffalo, including a double and a home run yesterday.
[email protected]
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PrincessPeach said:
Hey... do any of you get the HD STO feed? Even outside of tonight's outages, the quality on the regular station is awful... very grainy, poor sound... ugh... not sure that's something that's going to get better after a break-in period.
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On our main TV, the STO picture (Insight, not HD) is terrible. Wavy lines, grainy, the works. Upstairs, it's crystal clear. Not sure why there would be a difference; the downstairs one goes through the TiVo and VCR, but all the other channels are just fine.
 
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Tribe wins in Detroit behind young Fausto Carmona 7-2 to snap the three game slde. Carmona looked good going six innings giving up one run on five hits and striking out four. Pronk smacked his seventh of the year, and Victor has now hit safely in all eleven games this season.
 
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ABJ

4/16/06

Carmona silences Tigers in debut

Rookie has strong outing to help Indians snap skid

By Sheldon Ocker

Beacon Journal sportswriter

<!-- begin body-content -->DETROIT - Fausto Carmona pitched magnificently in his major-league debut Saturday, but couldn't catch a break.
Not that he needed any. To borrow from the vernacular of the Motor City, Carmona forced the Detroit Tigers' powerful lineup to shift from overdrive to reverse, as the Indians coasted to a 7-2 win at Comerica Park.
Carmona yielded one run, five hits and two walks, striking out four. He needed only 88 pitches to navigate through six innings and should have been charged with zero earned runs.
However, the official scorer awarded Omar Infante an infield single leading off the sixth that looked like an obvious error on shortstop Jhonny Peralta.
Carmona's demeanor was calm, commanding, but was his stomach churning?
``I didn't realize how nervous I would be until I got out there, but I was in control,'' he said. Thinking about it, Carmona added, ``I'm more nervous talking to you guys.''
Carmona extricated himself from a bases-loaded jam in the fifth and kept the damage to one run in the sixth by throwing a double-play ball.
``Fausto was in command,'' manager Eric Wedge said. ``He showed tremendous poise when they tried to put together a couple of innings later on.''
For the most part, the Tigers couldn't make outs fast enough against Carmona, whose fastball at times registered 97 mph on the scoreboard radar gun.
More often than not, however, Carmona's fastball sat at 93-94, and his out pitch frequently was a snappy breaking pitch that fooled hitters badly.
``I don't think about that,'' Carmona said of the gun readings.
Could he possibly have imagined pitching so well in his first big-league start?
``What do you think?'' said a smiling Carmona, a man whose confidence has helped carry him this far.
For four innings, Detroit managed only two hits off Carmona, but it took a leaping catch at the left-field wall by Todd Hollandsworth to keep the Tigers off the scoreboard
``In that situation, I was able to get back to the wall in time to gauge where the ball was going,'' Hollandsworth said. ``It wasn't the toughest catch I've ever made, but it was the kind of thing where we're putting our foot down right there.''
Carmona, 22, was summoned from Triple-A Buffalo to start for injured C.C. Sabathia, who is on the disabled list, probably until the last day or two of April. That means Carmona will make at least two more starts, one each against the Baltimore Orioles and the Boston Red Sox.
In spring training, he and Jeremy Sowers waged a quiet battle to determine which pitcher would be called up if a starter got hurt.
Carmona's debut not only was a stunning personal success, he stopped the Tribe's three-game losing streak.
``He probably picked us up more than he realizes,'' Travis Hafner said. ``Not only did he throw the ball very well, he gave the bullpen a break.''
Wedge probably should receive some of the credit for Hollandsworth's home run-saving catch. It was the manager's decision to give Hollandsworth his first starting assignment of the season. In doing so, Wedge made himself a candidate for MENSA.
Hollandsworth blooped a first-inning double into left field and trotted home on Hafner's seventh home run of the year. Hollandsworth doubled again in a five-run fourth, scoring on Ben Broussard's double.
``I don't have a formula for it,'' said Hollandsworth, referring to his ability to come in cold and produce. ``You give it your all, and you prepare in between. Half the battle is understanding that.''
The decision to write Hollandsworth's name in the lineup wasn't the only move that paid off for Wedge. Slumping Aaron Boone was given the day off, allowing Ramon Vazquez to play third base.
After his first plate appearance, in the second inning, that strategy might have been called into question, as Vazquez struck out for the sixth time in eight at-bats.
But he produced an important single in the fourth that drove in a run and hastened Tigers starter Jeremy Bonderman's trip to the showers. Bonderman is their No. 1 starter, but he gave up all the runs on eight hits and one walk, leaving after 3 2/3 innings.
``Bonderman has put it to us at times, as well,'' Wedge said.
It was a win in which almost everyone who played contributed, yet the day belonged to Carmona.
``Fausto was incredible,'' Hollandsworth said. ``He is the story of the day.''
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I don't think I agree with Pluto when he believes we could possibly make a trade due to our pitching depth....the jury is still out in my opinion.


ABJ

4/16/06

Terry Pluto | Pitcher stands tall, delivers big

By Terry Pluto

<!-- begin body-content -->DETROIT - The first thing you notice about Fausto Carmona is he's big.
Big as in burly. Big as in tall. Big as in a lot bigger than his listed size of 6-foot-4, 190 pounds.
Maybe it's because he's still growing, the right-hander from the Dominican Republic is only 22.
``I'm 6-5, 230, no 235 pounds,'' he said.
Or as Indians manager Eric Wedge said, ``He's a big, imposing guy.''
As Carmona stands tall on the mound, his healthy Afro smashed under his cap -- he doesn't stare at the hitter, he glares.
He's King of Hill, and he knows it.
At least that's how he looked in his first major-league start Saturday, walking off the mound with a victory in a 7-2 verdict over the Detroit Tigers at Comerica Park.
Carmona had to be nervous, but you'd never know it. He put six innings next to his name, allowing one run, striking out four and walking two.
He used three different fastballs. The first was sneaky about 91 mph, and it would sink. The next was his regular fastball at 93 to 95 mph.
Then came the high-speed model, lighting up the radar gun at 97 mph.
He also showed a decent breaking ball and a few change-ups.
In the Tigers clubhouse, veteran manager Jim Leyland called Carmona, ``The real deal.''
Carmona was 13-9 with a 3.68 ERA last year, splitting the season between the Class AA Aeros and Class AAA Buffalo. The impressive part is he was better at Buffalo (7-4, 3.25 ERA). Then came this spring, when he allowed only one earned run in 12 innings, striking out eight, walking none.
Carmona is not a strikeout pitcher -- he averaged about five per nine innings last year. He has excellent control, walking only 35 in 173 innings last season.
Wedge praised his poise as Carmona pitched out of bases-loaded jams in the fifth and sixth innings, being tagged with only one run. He throws what hitters call a ``heavy ball,'' because it sinks and often comes up on the handle of the bat, breaking it.
Carmona also isn't afraid to pitch inside. It was encouraging to see him shove Brandon Inge off the plate with a shoulder-high fastball in the first inning -- after Inge tortured the Tribe with two homers Friday night.
Not every outing will be as easy as this for Carmona, but there was nothing flukish about the performance. He has the right stuff and would have opened the season in the Tribe rotation had the Indians not signed veteran starter Jason Johnson.
After C.C. Sabathia pulled a muscle in his rib cage, the Indians summoned Carmona. He's making a bid to stay and probably will get at least two more starts as Sabathia recovers.
For Tribe fans, Carmona is just the first peek of coming attractions.
At Buffalo, Jeremy Sowers and Jeremy Guthrie have allowed only one unearned run in 23 innings. Like Carmona, Sowers is being groomed as a starter.
Guthrie is starting, but Wedge also likes him as a reliever.
The point is the Indians' pitching staff probably will be subject to change. If Danny Graves continues to struggle in middle relief, the Indians could turn to Guthrie. They have Jason Davis (looking strong, confident) and Fernando Cabrera (sore foot, disabled list) for the bullpen.
With Davis, Guthrie and Cabrera, the Indians have three young pitchers with above-average fastballs and promising futures to supply immediate relief.
Suppose the rotation sustains another injury, or someone simply isn't pitching well. The Indians have Carmona and Sowers.
The sudden wealth of pitching also gives the Tribe freedom to make a trade, either with one of their prospects or a veteran.
This much is certain -- Carmona's composure and sheer talent demand that the Indians find a spot for him, even if it means shuffling the roster to do it.
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ABJ

4/16/06

INDIANS NOTEBOOK

<!-- begin body-content -->DETROIT - Cabrera placed on DL
to clear roster spot
Jason Davis is safe. Instead of optioning Davis to Triple-A Buffalo to make room for rookie starter Fausto Carmona on the roster, reliever Fernando Cabrera was placed on the disabled list with a bruised right heel. He will be eligible to be activated on April 29.
``We wanted Cabrera to throw this morning off the mound,'' manager Eric Wedge said. ``We saw that it's (affects from the bruise) still there. But I don't think this will be anything that bothers him long term.''
THE REST OF THE STORY -- It probably won't take Cabrera 15 days to recover from his injury, but the way Davis has thrown in his two appearances out of the bullpen has been encouraging.
In four innings, Davis has allowed one run, four hits, no walks and struck out four.
``Jason is much more in control of his delivery,'' Wedge said. ``He was outstanding yesterday (two innings, two hits, two strikeouts), and his slider keeps coming.''
HEAR THIS -- Wednesday night's 7:05 game against the Baltimore Orioles will be broadcast on WMMS-FM (100.7) to allow the Cavaliers to be aired on WTAM (1100-AM).
OTHER STUFF -- Victor Martinez singled in the first to give him an 11-game hitting streak.... The last Indians pitcher to win his major-league debut was Brian Tallet, who beat the Boston Red Sox in September 2002.... Travis Hafner's seventh homer tied him with Chris Shelton of the Detroit Tigers for the major-league lead.... Shelton, who started the series with a .526 average, went 0-for-4 to drop to .467.
FARM FACTS -- Jeremy Guthrie delivered five scoreless innings, giving up three hits in Buffalo's 9-1 win over Columbus. Guthrie has yet to allow a run in his two starts (11 IP).... Matt Whitney hit his first home run of the season in Kinston's 8-3 loss to Winston-Salem in Class A.... Chris Gimenez homered, doubled and drove in five runs as Lake County defeated Hagerstown 8-2 in Class A. Albert Vargas gave up two unearned runs and four hits in five innings.
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ABJ

4/16/06

Ocker on the Indians

It could be tough to retain Belliard

Age could cause Indians to balk at multiyear deal

By Sheldon Ocker

<!-- begin body-content -->DETROIT - The season is already 11 games old, so it's time to turn our attention to next year.
Three everyday players face the end of their contractual ties to the Indians: Aaron Boone, Ronnie Belliard and Casey Blake, though the team holds an option on Blake's services that could cost $3.75 million to $4.2 million.
Jason Michaels and Ben Broussard are not under contract for next season, either, but since neither can become a free agent, the Tribe will remain in control of their fate.
It's no secret that General Manager Mark Shapiro traded for Andy Marte to take Boone's place at third base next year. With Marte off to a strong start at Triple-A Buffalo, there's no reason at this point to think he won't move up to the Tribe and supplant Boone.
Does that mean Shapiro already has written off Boone for next season? Not necessarily.
Boone's future with the Indians might be tied to that of Belliard, however. When Belliard was signed in December 2003, he figured to be a stop-gap solution at second base, a guy who swung a decent bat but was rated barely adequate as a defender.
Those judgments could not have been more off the mark. For whatever reason, Belliard has turned into a very tough out and one of the better middle infielders in the American League.
He has infused his position with creativity (playing on the grass in short right field) and has proven that he can make the spectacular play as well as the routine grab and throw.
At the plate, Belliard has batted .282 and .284 with at least 70 RBI in each of his two seasons. He is a high-energy competitor, a player who defines himself first and foremost as a baseball player.
Shapiro has not rushed to re-sign Belliard to another contract, even though there is no logical successor on the horizon now that Brandon Phillips has been traded to the Cincinnati Reds.
Even if Phillips had cleared waivers and ended up at Triple-A for another season, there was no indication that he would, or should, have been penciled in as a regular for the Tribe next season. He would have had to make a remarkable turnaround in performance and attitude to justify a promotion. There was no reason to think that would happen this season, when it hadn't happened in the previous three years.
So here is Shapiro, with no second baseman at Triple-A, but with Belliard as a viable option. Or is he?
Belliard will be 32 next year. Not too young, not too old. But as a prospective free agent, if Belliard reprises his numbers of the past two seasons and continues to excel in the field, he will be in line for a multiyear deal.
His $4 million salary this year could balloon into a three-year, $15 million contract, maybe more. It's unlikely that Shapiro would be willing to commit that many years or that much cash to Belliard.
Keep in mind that when Shapiro uses the word ``flexibility'' to describe his budgetary goals, he means not getting locked into guaranteed contracts with players who don't fit a certain profile. That is, players who tend to be younger than 30 with the kind of talent to be potential All-Stars.
If Belliard would accept a one-year contract, Shapiro probably would be rushing to find his ball-point pen. He knows that Belliard doesn't have to accept that kind of bargain.
So how does Boone figure into the equation? Boone not only plays third, but he also has played shortstop and second. He has a mutual option for 2007, which means if either he or the Tribe says no, there's no deal.
Boone will be 34 next year. He can become a free agent by declining the option and maybe he will. Unless he has a career season, he might not receive more than a two-year offer for the same money he is making now ($3.75 million).
He seems to enjoy playing with the Indians, and Shapiro loves the way that he handles a leadership role in the clubhouse (who wouldn't?). It would come as no surprise if Shapiro were to extend Boone's contract through 2008 and hand second base to him.
Shapiro could go shopping for a second baseman next winter. If he does, it probably would cost him as much, or more, than it would to retain Boone.
That brings us to Blake. He was criticized roundly and justly in 2005 for his inability to hit with runners in scoring position and late in games. He also took far too many third strikes.
That was last year, when he was learning to play the outfield and was plagued by personal problems that he has declined to discuss. Obviously, it's too early to know whether Blake will do a 180 this season, but he certainly has made an explosive start.
Why? No longer is he a novice right fielder, and it is believed that whatever stressful situation was weighing on him off the field has disappeared.
There is no automatic answer in right field for 2007. Shapiro can bring back Blake for his option year. Maybe Brad Snyder will be ready. The former first-rounder is 23 and is still in Class AA, so it is not a given that he will rise to the big leagues next season.
Franklin Gutierrez is another 23-year-old who could make a run at an everyday outfield job in 2007. He still has to show his workmanship at the plate can match his superior talent as an outfielder.
If they make their marks this year, Snyder and Gutierrez might push Blake off the roster in 2007. It depends on them and on Blake, who has faced these kinds of challenges in the past.
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