Houston Rockets (2x NBA Champions)

[BuckeyeNation27]

What exactly are you implying??

Jordan may have been the most talented, b-ball player of all-time, but that does not mean he and the Bulls could stack-up against two of the most talented, if not the two most talented teams of all-time.

Again, the Bulls of the 1990s never beat a team with a dominant big man at the talent level of Kareem or Parish during the mid-80s in the finals.

they never played a team like that either.

Here's what I know. Jordan wins in 91, 92, 93....takes 94,95 off...comes back....wins 96,97,98.

Somehow the dominant Olajuwan managed to win 2 titles in the purely coincidental time slot that jordan was gone.

right.

 

[Sloopy45]

"they never played a team like that either."

He's talking about the Bulls against the 80's Celtics and/or Lakers. Not the Rockets.

 

[buckeyegrad]

they never played a team like that either.

Here's what I know. Jordan wins in 91, 92, 93....takes 94,95 off...comes back....wins 96,97,98.

Somehow the dominant Olajuwan managed to win 2 titles in the purely coincidental time slot that jordan was gone.

right.

Here's what I know. Jordan doesn't win in 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, and 90.

Somehow the dominant Jordan managed to win 6 titles in the purely coincidental time slot after Kareem was gone and the Celtics were applying for membership in AARP.

 

[High Lonesome]

they never played a team like that either.

Here's what I know. Jordan wins in 91, 92, 93....takes 94,95 off...comes back....wins 96,97,98.

Somehow the dominant Olajuwan managed to win 2 titles in the purely coincidental time slot that jordan was gone. right.

From 91 - 93 the rockets were 5-1 against the bulls. Chicago had no answer for Hakeem. And if you are trying to imply that Olajuwan was not dominant then your arguements don't deserve consideration to begin with. He was the best bigman of his era and that is saying something with the likes of ewing, and robinson and even a young mourning.

 

[Sloopy45]

buckeyegrad: "Here's what I know. Jordan doesn't win in 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, and 90."

And those're Jordan's best statistical seasons, too. Case in point: just look at the '86 playoffs. Jordan scores 63 in Game 2, sets the playoff scoring record in only 3 games, and yet the Bulls still get swept.

The Bulls had a superstar, and a star 2nd option. That's it. More than enough to be a dynasty in the 90's, but that's no match for a team with a superstar, star 2nd option, size, versatility, & bench too.

High Lonesome: "From 91 - 93 the rockets were 5-1 against the bulls."

This stat doesn't mean a thing. Six meaningless regular season games equates to saying, 'A team is up at halftime.' Meaningless. The '91 - '93 Bulls would've SMOKED the '91 - '93 Rockets in a Playoff.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

Here's what I know. Jordan doesn't win in 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, and 90.

Somehow the dominant Jordan managed to win 6 titles in the purely coincidental time slot after Kareem was gone and the Celtics were applying for membership in AARP.

The 85-90 bulls hadn't reached their peak. i doubt the same can be said about the rockets....since they won in between jordan.

 

[buckeyegrad]

The 85-90 bulls hadn't reached their peak. i doubt the same can be said about the rockets....since they won in between jordan.

The Rockets did not hit their peak until 1994-95, so yes the same can be said.

After the 1986 season when the Rockets lost to the Celtics in the championship, the team was devestated. They lost their top three guards due to substance-abuse problems and Samspon ran into injury problems.

Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell did not join the team until the 1990-91 season, but during the early 1990s, Olajuwon had injury problems (e.g. missed 26 games in 1991, part of it due to a fractured eye socket courtesy of a Cartwright elbow to the face).

Things began to change in 1992 when Tomjanovich became head coach and Olajuwon had moved past his injuires and disagreements with management.

By the time you reach 1994, the team had been built around Olajuwon. Sam Cassell was a rookie for the 1994 team and it was in 1995 when Clyde Drexel joined the Rockets to make them even stronger.

 

[High Lonesome]

This stat doesn't mean a thing. Six meaningless regular season games equates to saying, 'A team is up at halftime.' Meaningless. The '91 - '93 Bulls would've SMOKED the '91 - '93 Rockets in a Playoff.I am not trying to say that the bulls would have lost to those rocket teams in the playoffs, I am trying to show though that the rockets did have sucess against a jordan led bulls team. In my opinion it pokes holes into the arguement that there was NO WAY that the rockets win if jordan doesnt retire. It is possible that the bulls win 8 in a row, but not even close to beyond resonable doubt.

the rockets didnt meet there peak until 94 or 95 as well. Drexler wasn't a part of the rockets when jordan was still playing and he was a huge factor in the championship in 95, also the 93/94 season was the rookie year for sam cassell who was a huge factor as well. the championship teams that the rockets assembled were far better than their early 90's predecessors.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

so its all coincidence that everything fell into place, the rockets reach their peak for 94 and 95....jordan comes back....and their peak is over at 2 years, while jordan picks up right where he left off with phil and scottie?

 

[High Lonesome]

in a word....yes

you act like the rockets didn't have a very good team in 96, they did. They just didn't make the finals.

 

[BB73]

bb: "Are you guys drinking the same Kool-aid, or sharing the same crack-pipe?"

C'mon, bb - take those red-colored glasses off. Before the NBA Expanded, those teams were unbeatable powerhouses. Just look at the rosters. No team from the 90's (even the Bulls) could compare with that. Remember, Jordan & Pippen Bulls teams went up against these teams & regularly got bounced.

1986 Celtics: Bird, McHale, Parish, DJ, & Ainge.
Bench: Scott Wedman, Bill Walton, Jerry Sichting, Rick Carlisle, & Sam Vincent.

SEVEN guys on that team made an All-Star team at one point during their career (37 All-Star games in total). As far as awards go, a total of 4 MVPs, 3 Sixth Men of the Year, 12 All-NBA 1st Teams, 4 All-NBA 2nd teams, 1 Rookie of the Year, and FOUR Hall of Famers.

1987 Lakers: Magic, Worthy, Byron Scott, Abdul-Jabbar, & Michael Cooper.
Bench: A.C.Green, Rambis, & Mychial Thompson.

There are four players on that team that were the # 1 overall pick in the NBA Draft. Think about that. And oh yeah, as a team they shot 52% from the floor.

1983 Sixers: Moses, Dr. J, Andrew Toney (the Boston Strangler), Mo Cheeks, & Bobby Jones.

The Bulls don't have anything to compare with those teams.

In 1986, the Sixers got bounced in the first round with a roster of Moses, Dr. J, Charles Barkley, Cheeks, Jones, & McAdoo. That's how stiff the competition was back then. That team would mop up the rest of the league if it were in the 90's.

The Jordan/Pippen Bulls were never bounced by the The Lakers or the Celtics. Pippen joined the Bulls for the 87-88 season, and the Bulls got beat by the Pistons for his first 3 years. The same Pistons that were beating the Celtics and the Lakers in the playoffs those years. Once Pippen and Grant had gained that playoff experience, they swept the Pistons, who had taken the championship from the Lakers in 1989.

I loved the '83 Sixers, a team I followed very closely in the playoffs while you were just turning 8 years old and trying to figure out how to play with your furry little Ewok puppets that appeared that May. But the Bulls could go big on that team, playing Jordan and Pippen at guard; and then what's Mo Cheeks going to do on defense? The Doctor had an inconsistent outside shot, and Pippen could match up well with him. The Bulls would double-team Malone, and their defensive rotations, along with MJ's unstoppable offensive abilities, were why the Bulls won all those rings.

As far as the '86 Sixers, Barkley was fat then and not near the player he became later, and Bob McAdoo was one of the most overrated NBA players of all time. He shot too much and didn't play solid defense. You would have made a better case with the '81 Lakers losing in Round 1 to Houston.

The '86 Celtics were an excellent team, but the '91-'93 Bulls would have pressed them all over the court, and the Celtics had nobody who could hold Jordan under 40 whenever he wanted it. Remember the playoff 63 he put up on the Celtics that year, before he had good teammates, which is why Boston won that series. As far as 4 Hall-of-Famers, Walton was a serviceable big man off the bench with bad feet, just a shell of what he was in 1977, when he was the best player in basketball (even better than Kareem in his prime that year, when you were still filling your diapers).

The Lakers of the mid-80's would have been a great match-up for the Bulls. Kareem, Magic and Worthy were all tough, and the other guys were good at their roles. We'll never know, but that would have been great to see. The '91 Lakers weren't the same team since Kareem had retired.

I saw the Bulls in person many times, and watched several hundred of the Jordan/Pippen Bulls games on TV, so I'm not going to be convinced by somebody quoting stats and draft choices on a message board and saying what they could and couldn't do. Especially somebody who just picked Phoenix and the Celtics to make the NBA Finals this year. :tongue2:

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[Sloopy45]

bb73: "Pippen joined the Bulls for the 87-88 season, and the Bulls got beat by the Pistons for his first 3 years."

The 80's Pistons are part of this argument too. I said that Jordan's Bulls wouldn't beat any of the 80's Champions. And they didn't.

I don't buy this whole 'great player reaching his peak' argument: Bird won a Championship in McHale & Parish' first year with the C's, Magic won a Championship in his rookie year, ditto for Bill Russell, Jabbar won a Title in his 2nd or 3rd season with the Bucks, etc. So if that Bulls team was on the level of the Pistons, C's, Fakers, or Sixers, they should've won something as soon as Mr. Pippen came to town. They didn't.

"Once Pippen and Grant had gained that playoff experience, they swept the Pistons, who had taken the championship from the Lakers in 1989."

The 1991 Pistons & Lakers were way different teams from their dynsaty years. The Pistons team got old, and the Lakers didn't have Kareem, & Worthy was breaking down.

"I loved the '83 Sixers, a team I followed very closely in the playoffs while you were just turning 8 years old and trying to figure out how to play with your furry little Ewok puppets that appeared that May."

I actually never had Ewok puppets.

"The Bulls would double-team Malone, and their defensive rotations, along with MJ's unstoppable offensive abilities, were why the Bulls won all those rings."

Every team used to double Malone. And he still got his. Plus, Moses used to dominate Bill Cartwright.

"The '86 Celtics were an excellent team, but the '91-'93 Bulls would have pressed them all over the court, and the Celtics had nobody who could hold Jordan under 40 whenever he wanted it."

Who on that Bulls team could match-up with Parish, McHale, or Bird? Ok, put Pippen on Bird - Bird is STILL getting his. Not to mention that the '86 Celtics were absolutely unbeatable at home.

"Especially somebody who just picked Phoenix and the Celtics to make the NBA Finals this year."

First off, I always pick the C's to go to the Finals. I make my picks with my heart not my mind. Plus, Duncan was hurt at the begining of the Playoffs, so I didn't know if the Spurs could withstand that.

"Walton was a serviceable big man off the bench with bad feet, just a shell of what he was in 1977, when he was the best player in basketball (even better than Kareem in his prime that year, when you were still filling your diapers)."

Walton won Sixth Man of the Year that season! Who did the Bulls have off the bench that would even compare to him??

 

[BB73]

The 80's Pistons are part of this argument too. I said that Jordan's Bulls wouldn't beat any of the 80's Champions. And they didn't. ...

The 1991 Pistons & Lakers were way different teams from their dynsaty years. The Pistons team got old

By definition, nobody beat a champion in the year they won the title. The '80's Pistons are part of the argument? The team that won the title in 1989 and 1990, and as defending champions got swept by the Bulls in 1991. Wow, those Pistons got really old in 1 year! Thanks for including them in your 'argument'.

Bird won a Championship in McHale & Parish' first year with the C's, Magic won a Championship in his rookie year.

Parish had played in the NBA for 4 seasons at Golden State, and McHale didn't start in 1981, the man who won the Finals MVP that year (Cornbread Maxwell) did. Not nearly the same as trying to blend both Pippen and Grant into the lineup as rookies.

I actually never had Ewok puppets.

This 'ewok envy' may explain the extent of your anger at everything that George Lucas has done since 1983.

Not to mention that the '86 Celtics were absolutely unbeatable at home.

It appears that you mentioned it. Yes, that team was 40-1 at home that year. The 95-96 Bulls were 38-0, and had the home-court wrapped up when they let down at home and lost to Indiana and someone else I'm not going to look up to finish 39-2. I was watching those games and was disappointed that they didn't go 41-0 to set an unbreakable record. Home court would have been huge for whichever team had it. Like the old no air conditioning thing in the Garden, and knowing where the dead-spots on the parquet floor were.

Walton won Sixth Man of the Year that season! Who did the Bulls have off the bench that would even compare to him??

How about Robert Parish on the 96-97 Rodman team? Just kidding, I liked the symmetry there. Kukoc won the 6th man award in 1996.

 

[Sloopy45]

bb73: "Wow, those Pistons got really old in 1 year! Thanks for including them in your 'argument'."

Isiah Thomas got hurt in '91 (only played 48 games), and Dumars was banged up at times that season too. In addition, Laimbeer & Mark Aguirre started to decline, & the Microwave was out of the league a year later. It wasn't the same team as the year before.

"Parish had played in the NBA for 4 seasons at Golden State, and McHale didn't start in 1981, the man who won the Finals MVP that year (Cornbread Maxwell) did. Not nearly the same as trying to blend both Pippen and Grant into the lineup as rookies."

? - I don't get your point here. Bird had a poor Finals in '81 (when compared with his standards), and Pippen was way better than Cornbread Maxwell. Cornbread was a nice role player who could step it up in spurts during crucial times. He's also the same guy who was the leading scorer on the '79 Celtics which won all of 29 games. No where near the class of Scottie Pippen.

"This 'ewok envy' may explain the extent of your anger at everything that George Lucas has done since 1983."

Nah. Never really wanted an Ewok. I had every single one of the toys back in those days, so there was little room for envy ..

"Kukoc won the 6th man award in 1996."

But he aint no Bill Walton. Sixth Man Awards nowadays are won by default. Back in those days, Ricky Pierce & McHale used to win the Award averaging 19, 20, 23 a game. Today, you win it with 13 or 15 ppg.

FYI: the Big Red Head played the most games of his career in '86 (80), and averaged 19.3 mpg, 7.6 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 2.1 apg, 1.3 bpg, and shot 56% from the floor. That's damn good production for only 19 minutes a game.

 

[BB73]

Sloop, I just don't enjoy the back-and-forth debate, as I believe you do. So I won't put forth any more of my opinions for you to respond to.

But I must point out the situation in your own 6th-man comments. You devalue the recent awards that have been going to players that aren't scoring near 20 points per game, but give great credit to Walton in '86 for winning the award when he averaged 7.6. Seems like you want to have it both ways.