Do you think Mark McGwire should be in the Hall of Fame?

[OH10]

You mean Big Mac's testimony bothers you than Palmeiro lying to congress on National Television?

Quite certain I've never posted or insinuated that at all. In fact, I'm quite surprised that purgery charges were never brought up.

 

[Thump]

Quite certain I've never posted or insinuated that at all. In fact, I'm quite surprised that purgery charges were never brought up.

Do you think Palmeiro deserves entry?

 

[PrincetonBuckeye]

I definately think he does not.....

 

[NJ-Buckeye]

Do you think Palmeiro deserves entry?

nope

 

[JohnnyCockfight]

It's safe to say that Palmeiro is the worst actor in all of this and I have no doubt that he never gets elected to the Hall of Fame.

Not saying it is OK, just wondering why you are taking the moral high ground on this issue versus all of the others that have damaged the integrity of baseball?

Isn't the issue whether Mark McGwire should be in the Hall of Fame? Is he taking the moral high ground, or is he just staying more focused?

 

[tyrus]

If McGwire didn't have 500 homers, he's not a legit candidate for the Hall.

Ok, I misquoted a little. Your exact statement is above.

I never said, "take away his 500 HRs and see how good he is." I recognize that the homers are his credentials for the Hall - but they are his only credentials. I just don't find his numbers to be all that compelling considering the factors which allowed him to hit so many. If he had something else on his resume... like, I don't know, "great ambassador of the game".... maybe that would be sufficient for me. But he and others like him have had a terrible impact on the game and I fail to see how that is not important.

You can't use MJ as an example. It's absurd. That's where you lose credibility. His point totals are compelling. His leadership was compelling. His championships are beyond compelling. And, despite the fact that he had plenty of skeletons in his closet, he was a great ambassador of the game.

Sorry if I pointed out that your invocation of Michael Jordan was way of the mark.

Stadium...If, for whatever reason you dont get the MJ comparison, how about removing Ty Cobb's singles? Is he a HOFer w/o those? I mean, he was a basehitter, just as MM is a power hitter, so lets exclude their strengths. I am sure you are aware of McGwire winning The Lou Gehrig Memorial Award in 99. So, there must have been somebody who thought he had character and integrity.

The Lou Gehrig Memorial Award was created by the Phi Delta Theta Fraternity in honor of the former Major League Baseball player Lou Gehrig, who was a member of the fraternity at Columbia University. It is given to players who best exemplify his character and integrity both on and off the field. Since the award was created in 1955, the name of each winner has been placed on the Lou Gehrig Award plaque in the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, New York.

And once again, he was more than a HR hitter. I do recognize this was his strength, but he happened to average 122 RBIs a year, his SLG, walks and OPS and OBP is among elite company. He has a ring, and was the best among his peers.

 

[tyrus]

I just looked at McGwire's stats compared to the others on that list, and now I am even more impressed. He accomplished his numbers in significantly less ABs and games. I am not taking the time to break it down, but take the time and look, his numbers are HOF worthy w/o a doubt.

Now, if you have the moral issue that he may or may not have used steroids, well, there is no way I am going to influence anyone's morals. But, if morals come into play, there are basball icons that should be showed the door in Cooperstown. They dont belong either. And IMO Mark McGwire shouldnt be the scape goat for baseball that suddenly has morals.

 

[OH10]

Ok, I misquoted a little. Your exact statement is above.

And taken out of context, the comparison might fit. My statement is that his homers aren't enough, considering their inflation, and was based directly at the belief that 500 is the magic number. There is no magic number. The whole package has to be taken into account, and that HAS TO INCLUDE impact on the game.

I know someone posted earlier that his impact has been positive because it showcased the problem of steroids. That's not a fair assessment. Big Mac didn't use performance enhancing drugs to show everyone how wrong it was to use them. In fact, I don't think he had such a positive impact at all. Now, young people know that if you use them, it helps out tremendously. Thanks Mark McGwire!

I am sure you are aware of McGwire winning The Lou Gehrig Memorial Award in 99.

Wow, even before everyone knew he was a doping douchebag.

 

[OH10]

Do you think Palmeiro deserves entry?

Um... no... I don't ... at all. He's a lying, doping, and since IT WAS against the rules at the time, a cheating douchebag.

 

[heisman]

On ESPNEWS right now, in the lower right hand corner, it says "AHEAD: Pro Bowler Shawne Merriman."

Do the same people who don't want McGwire in the HOF, feel the same way about the ridiculous amount of NFL HOFers who were on performance enhancers, not to mention someone like Merriman who actually tested positive?

 

[OH10]

On ESPNEWS right now, in the lower right hand corner, it says "AHEAD: Pro Bowler Shawne Merriman."

Do the same people who don't want McGwire in the HOF, feel the same way about the ridiculous amount of NFL HOFers who were on performance enhancers, not to mention someone like Merriman who actually tested positive?

I heard one of the ESPN guys the other day say that Merrimen should be "defensive player of the year". You're right. It's a ridiculous double standard for football players.

 

[tyrus]

Wow, even before everyone knew he was a doping douchebag.

I must have missed the breaking news where it was proved he doped. I thought this one thing we agreed on, that it we have no proof?

I am done. Everyone has their own opinion, and it doesnt seem any of us are willing to cmpromise, which is fine.

I will say this....IMO, his numbers are among the best ever and he belongs with the greats of the game. It is not my place or right to judge Mark McGwire who has never been convicted of any wrong-doing. He is a good guy from everything I have seen and read. He admitted to performing a completely legal act, using ANDRO...nothing more. And there is no proof he has done more than that.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Homers aren't enough? Are you serious? Of course homers are enough. As well they should be.

The point of baseball is to score runs. Why is the Home Run properly inflated as the important stat of baseball offense? Well, of all the categories that measure a how a run is created are encompassed in the HR. You get a Hit, a run and an RBI. It raises your .avg, you're OBP, your .slg... The only stat I can think of that the HR doesn't include in and of itself in terms of run creation is the stolen base, which of course, the HR itself, renders irrelevant. (The HR hitter need not steal a base to manufacture a run when he just hits the ball over the fence)

Lets contrast that with an obvious hall choice - Ty Cobb. (who, incidentally, is the career leader in Bill James' category "runs produced" which for some reason disregards the HR, and instead looks at Runs + RBI MINUS HR, which I don't understand... I can understand not counting HRs at all, in that the produced run is accounted for in the RBI, but subtracting them? That, to me, punishes power hitters for no reason... the run was still created)
Cobb hit 3,053 singles. Obviously, it's good to be on base, as it increases your chances of scoring. But, Cobb scored only 2,246 times. Obviously, he did not score only after hitting a single.... indeed, I know he stole home 50 times, and he hit 117 HRs (well, I don't know know, but you know what I mean) So... the most times he could have scored after a single is 2079. McGwire scored a run 100% of the time he hit a HR. 583 times. Cobb's singles? 68.1% of the time. A percentage that is actually less, considering the number of times he scored after hitting a double or a triple.
What I'm saying is, Cobb's singles hitting, while impressive and worthy, is -even at best - far less effective than the HR in the scoring of runs.

My point is that the HR is a critical stat in baseball as a measure of run production, not that Cobb didn't manufacture runs, or etc.. What I'm saying is, saying "He's just an HR hitter" as if that is some kind of knock misses the entire point of why they play the game, if you ask me.

 

[OH10]

I will say this....IMO, his numbers are among the best ever and he belongs with the greats of the game. It is not my place or right to judge Mark McGwire who has never been convicted of any wrong-doing. He is a good guy from everything I have seen and read. He admitted to performing a completely legal act, using ANDRO...nothing more. And there is no proof he has done more than that.

I agree that this is an emotional issue where opinions rarely change. But I will say this to the proof factor: Speak up Mark and stop punting. Did you use anabolic steroids?

Homers aren't enough? Are you serious? Of course homers are enough. As well they should be.

His homers are not enough, considering everything associated with them.

 

[BayBuck]

But I will say this to the proof factor: Speak up Mark and stop punting. Did you use anabolic steroids?

"I did not have anabolic relations with those steroids."